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[Jade121]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I don’t think ‘understand’ is the right word - in the context of this process I find myself increasingly wordless. But I want to join a forum to feel that there is a community/support I can contact. So I need to say something. The inherent self is BEING expressed through words, actions and experiences (I am feeling like I am just making this up)

What are you looking for at LU?
Community. Understanding. To share this process with someone (which is hard I know because I find myself increasingly wordless). But maybe this can happen with just a few words or images? I am not stuck, I have no direct questions. But I would like to connect with people who are here, who know this - who live this. Who transmit it. I feel I get a lot from just being connected to truth in this way. The simplest pointer at the right time can go a long way. Someone I contacted once about this said ‘Just Rest’ and that felt like the most powerful guidance.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Maybe the possibility to reach out to someone who understands, whom I do not have to explain what is going on. I really do not feel like engaging this topic with friends and family, because it would need so many words that ultimately would not be it at all. But I would like to be able to share this part of my life with someone.
I mainly follow my intuition and have very little idea about stages or phases, so it might also be nice to have someone point out when I get stuck in some idea (oh, the thought-brain is back)

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I meditate daily, do sadhana, yoga, read the books, watch the videos. I did silent retreats. The main directions I find helpful is staying with the senses, compassionate experience of emotions, advaita vedanta and any form of tantra.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Magdalena]

Hello, Jade,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed.
My name is Magdalena and I can join you here if you like.

So, to begin with, let’s get over a couple of formalities.
Please confirm that you’ve read and are OK with the following:
1) The LU Disclaimer http://www.liberationunleashed.com/regi ... sclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/abo ... #faq-1041
Also, please watch this short video to learn how to use the Quote function which we will need in our conversation: viewtopic.php?t=660

So, tell me what’s happening – what is that process you keep referring to?
Have you SEEN that there is no separate self/me/Jade running the show?

[Jade121]

Dear Magdalena, wonderful. I would love to talk to you.

1) I am of sound mind - not in any treatment
2) Acknowledged and accepted - I will do my best
3) Acknowledged and accepted

So, now to the meaty bits:

So, tell me what’s happening – what is that process you keep referring to?
Have you SEEN that there is no separate self/me/Jade running the show?

The process - it feels like things are happening, experiences, insights, surrender, melting, release that feel connected to awakening. This is something that started 20 years ago and is being seen and explicitly experienced only now.
At the moment, I am experiencing high intensity. Things that usually would not touch me make me furious, I am often sobbing and there is a lot of tense body feelings, but there is also immense gratitude and joy. So, all the emotions - just more intense. It feels as if some filters/some distance was removed. Things/feelings/emotions are more direct, more intense.

No, I would not say that I have SEEN the truth of who I am. It is more sensing, tactile, intuitive, vague, nebulous than clear seeing. When I look within, I feel nebulous, some areas of more density, of more reactivity, more pain and longing and other areas of almost clear, soft sky. These patterns move and shift. Where there was density before there is softness now and vice versa.
It feels wrong to use declarative sentences like ‘I am unbound consciousness’, ‘I am the body’ or even ‘I am not the body’. Things like ‘I am That’ or ‘I am’ feel more appropriate, but I could not tell you what that actually means.

With Love
Jade

[Magdalena]

Hello, Jade,


Thanks for your lovely reply.

The process - it feels like things are happening, experiences, insights, surrender, melting, release that feel connected to awakening.

Who are things happening to?
Are they happening to Jade?

I am experiencing high intensity. Things that usually would not touch me make me furious, I am often sobbing and there is a lot of tense body feelings, but there is also immense gratitude and joy. So, all the emotions - just more intense. It feels as if some filters/some distance was removed. Things/feelings/emotions are more direct, more intense.

I hear you.
So good there is gratitude and joy amidst all this commotion.
Remember, nothing lasts forever.

No, I would not say that I have SEEN the truth of who I am. It is more sensing, tactile, intuitive, vague, nebulous than clear seeing.

Is anything unclear?
Is anything missing?

It feels wrong to use declarative sentences like ‘I am unbound consciousness’, ‘I am the body’ or even ‘I am not the body’.

Absolutely. All these statements are found to be inaccurate at some point. 😊

Things like ‘I am That’ or ‘I am’ feel more appropriate, but I could not tell you what that actually means.

Very good.
Is there a need to know – be certain about – these things?
About anything really?


What makes you think you’re not awake?
Please answer all the questions. 😊

[Jade121]

Dear Magdalena,

Thank you for exploring with me.

Your questions

Who are things happening to? Are they happening to Jade?

have two answers. On the one hand they are happening to me, but, on the other hand, what that 'me' is remains unclear. Maybe this way: I feel like these things are for sure somehow connected. They were all 'here' at one point. There are memories of them 'here'.
[LATER Addition: Now that I think about this - how do I know that any of this is true? That they were here at one point is just a thought now, and that there are memories of 'x' is also just a thought now. In light of this - I just remain with the first answer - they happen to what is generally called 'me', but who knows what that is]
An even later addition: What even is a 'me'? Right now none of this makes any sense anymore. So I will just leave it here.

Then you ask

Is anything unclear? Is anything missing?

. I feel that in reading/listening/engaging with people who (I think) SEE, I can perceive their SEEING - there is a quality of clarity, of insight, truth present in them that I don't perceive when I look within. That doesn't mean it's not there. I just cannot perceive it 'here'.

The next set of questions

Is there a need to know – be certain about – these things? About anything really?

feel deeply important. I have no need for certainty. But I cling to my wish/ability/ego structure of being able to explain, to communicate complex things clearly. And if I don't even know, how am I going to explain or show it to others? I can see that words are failing, but I am still clinging to my wanting to explain this clearly.

Finally,

What makes you think you’re not awake?

.The way I behave – I act as if there was an I. A wonderful example happened this morning. I didn’t sleep very well and had thoughts about all the work I still had to do and that there was not enough time. When I woke up, I thought ok no meditation this morning because you have to do xyz. As if there was an I responsible for all these things in time that had to make things happen on time. The fear of not having enough time is often present – if I ask who needs that time I land in open vagueness. But the way I act is as if there was this me who needs to take care of things.

With love
Jade

[Magdalena]

Hello, Jade,

I feel that in reading/listening/engaging with people who (I think) SEE, I can perceive their SEEING - there is a quality of clarity, of insight, truth present in them…

How is that your concern?
Or, more bluntly, “So what?” 😉 (My all-time favourite pointer LOL)

… that I don't perceive when I look within.

So you compare yourself to some imagined state some others may or may not be in, and imagine yourself deficient, right?

That doesn't mean it's not there. I just cannot perceive it 'here'.

That’s right.
Is there an expectation that it will be perceived 24/7?
That others will recognise it in “Jade” and think “Wow, so much clarity, insight, truth, and what not there?”
Is that a relatable story?
Or is it something else?

if I don't even know, how am I going to explain or show it to others? I can see that words are failing, but I am still clinging to my wanting to explain this clearly.

Some juicy story running here, Jade.
Is there a hope to become a spiritual teacher or non-dual speaker or something?
Or a belief that the moment things are seen clearly, there is an obligation to come out and speak about it? Clearly, or else?

Whatever it may be, it is a tall story.
A fantasy, no less.
Whether it brings excitement or anxiety, there’s no difference.

Look, things are as they are.
Could they be any different right now, given all the circumstances, etc. that have brought about THIS?
Like “Jade” suddenly getting a download of all the right words to communicate things clearly.
Sure, that’s an option. Why not? Anything can happen.
But it’s about the next moment – and it’s not here now. Can you see this?
It’s equally possible that it may never come.
And so what?
Would that change ANYTHING?

What makes you think you’re not awake?

.The way I behave – I act as if there was an I.

Tell me about the ways you imagine “Jade” will behave once “Jade” finds themselves awake.

A wonderful example happened this morning. I didn’t sleep very well and had thoughts about all the work I still had to do and that there was not enough time. When I woke up, I thought ok no meditation this morning because you have to do xyz.

What do you imagine an awake individual would do under the circumstances?
Like, do meditation most of the day, quit their job and other obligations, stop paying bills and simply sit in ultimate bliss levitating gracefully? Seriously?

The fear of not having enough time is often present

Not enough time for what?
What’s the worst thing that can happen if there’s not enough time?

But the way I act is as if there was this me who needs to take care of things.

We all do.

Sure, things do take care of themselves, but we still get out of bed in the morning, on some days quit pleasurable pastimes (doesn’t matter if it’s meditation or Netflix or anything else), and instead meet the demands of daily life.
Does that mean that there is someone there – a me/Jade that is in control? Responsible for the outcome of actions?

Isn’t the “AS IF” good enough?

[Jade121]

Hello Magdalena,

Thank you so much for the wonderful pointings. I love the first one 'so what'!

How is that your concern?
Or, more bluntly, “So what?

Well so nothing. It is not really my concern, it is just my experience, nothing really hangs on it.

So you compare yourself to some imagined state some others may or may not be in, and imagine yourself deficient, right?

Yes - I see how I am merely comparing myself to an idea I have of others - I am comparing myself to myself and find some part of this entire thing less than the other part.

Is there an expectation that it will be perceived 24/7?
That others will recognise it in “Jade” and think “Wow, so much clarity, insight, truth, and what not there?”
Is that a relatable story?
Or is it something else?

There is an expectation, yes. This expectation, now you point me to it, feels quite painful, harsh and demanding. I have the belief that perceiving clearly 24/7 would allow me to act in the world in ways that do not add to suffering and that I should be there.
A belief that - ironically – takes me away from here, which is the only place where I can act from a place of compassion. So instead of judging myself for not being present, I could show myself the compassion I want to see in the world.

Another’s opinion of me is a story in their mind, which (i.e. that there are others who have an opinion of me) is a story in my mind.

Some juicy story running here, Jade.
Is there a hope to become a spiritual teacher or non-dual speaker or something?
Or a belief that the moment things are seen clearly, there is an obligation to come out and speak about it? Clearly, or else? ?

This pointer was the most direct. There is “I am a philosopher” (I teach philosophy at Uni and it took a lot to get to this point). The fear I am encountering is: “Am I going to lose the status of ‘philosopher’, if I can’t use words anymore or explain experiences clearly?”

Could they be any different right now, given all the circumstances, etc. that have brought about THIS?

Nothing could be other than it is given all the givens. This is clear to me.

Like “Jade” suddenly getting a download of all the right words to communicate things clearly.
Sure, that’s an option. Why not? Anything can happen.
But it’s about the next moment – and it’s not here now. Can you see this?
It’s equally possible that it may never come.
And so what?
Would that change ANYTHING? ?

I can see that all of this is imaginary, about later, ideas in my mind.
What would it change? I cannot think of a single thing that would change. But there is the thought/belief that I would feel safer. Like if I can explain everything I experience, then all is ok. I am now realising that I am using explanations to keep myself safe, I think I also use them to keep the world at bay.

Tell me about the ways you imagine “Jade” will behave once “Jade” finds themselves awake.

I dream that being awake would allow acting in ways that do not add to suffering.

What do you imagine an awake individual would do under the circumstances?
Like, do meditation most of the day, quit their job and other obligations, stop paying bills and simply sit in ultimate bliss levitating gracefully? Seriously?

This made me laugh out loud. Thank you! I was more thinking along the lines of not creating problems where there are no problems. There is enough time, I know I can get all the things done that need doing. Ruminating about how there is too much to do and stressing about it just doesn’t help.

Not enough time for what?
What’s the worst thing that can happen if there’s not enough time?

Since childhood there was always the feeling of not having enough time. There is no ‘for what’.
What would happen if there is not enough time for one thing to fully unfold? I’d say something else? There is nothing inherently bad about that.

Sure, things do take care of themselves, but we still get out of bed in the morning, on some days quit pleasurable pastimes (doesn’t matter if it’s meditation or Netflix or anything else), and instead meet the demands of daily life.
Does that mean that there is someone there – a me/Jade that is in control? Responsible for the outcome of actions?
Isn’t the “AS IF” good enough?

I would rather act from a place of spaciousness, to respond to what is as it is encountered without mind-story. To get out of bed when its needed and do what is needed when it is needed, instead of ruminating about what I need to do and whether I can do it all.

With Love
Jade

[Magdalena]

Hello, Jade,

I love the first one 'so what'!

Oh the so-what is the best ever LOL – it cuts through all kinds of b/s like a hot knife through butter. Highly recommend.😉

I am merely comparing myself to an idea I have of others

Yes, and you have no way of knowing if your idea is at all adequate: it may or may not be, right? You could use your time to fantasize about rainbow-farting unicorns just as well. Same thing.

This expectation, now you point me to it, feels quite painful, harsh and demanding. I have the belief that perceiving clearly 24/7 would allow me to act in the world in ways that do not add to suffering and that I should be there.

A belief that - ironically – takes me away from here, which is the only place where I can act from a place of compassion.

Well, well...
Isn't it that we always act as best we can – if we could do better at any point, we would, wouldn’t we?
No need to worry about these things now.
You are where you are and that’s that. It’s all good. If it could be any different, it would be. That’s all. No need to overthink any of it.

So instead of judging myself for not being present, I could show myself the compassion I want to see in the world.

How about extending the compassion that is clearly felt for “the world” to “oneself”?
Wouldn’t it help to be self-compassionate first before worrying about not relating to “the world” in a compassionate way?
Like on a plane they tell you to put your own oxygen mask on first before helping anyone else?

Another’s opinion of me is a story in their mind, which (i.e. that there are others who have an opinion of me) is a story in my mind.

Yes.

There is “I am a philosopher”

What a cute identification, isn’t it? 😉

(I teach philosophy at Uni and it took a lot to get to this point).

I happen to know about this first-hand.

The fear I am encountering is: “Am I going to lose the status of ‘philosopher’, if I can’t use words anymore or explain experiences clearly?”

Why would this ever happen? It’s actually pretty simple: you don’t try to communicate things that you can’t communicate until you can communicate them. On the plus side, your research interests and lecturing skills may at some point be enhanced in most uncanny ways (or not). But losing the use of words etc.? I wouldn’t worry about it if I were you. Not in the least.

But there is the thought/belief that I would feel safer. Like if I can explain everything I experience, then all is ok.

And how do you know this is what happens?

being awake would allow acting in ways that do not add to suffering.

And how do you know this is what happens?

…not creating problems where there are no problems.

There is enough time, I know I can get all the things done that need doing. Ruminating about how there is too much to do and stressing about it just doesn’t help.

Well, if so, this is about recognising thought stories as they come and not giving a sh*t about what they say.
Back to so-what.
How’s that?

Since childhood there was always the feeling of not having enough time. There is no ‘for what’.

What would happen if there is not enough time for one thing to fully unfold? I’d say something else? There is nothing inherently bad about that.

Come on, are you/Jade in control of any of it?

I would rather act from a place of spaciousness, to respond to what is as it is encountered without mind-story.

Sure, who wouldn’t. But this takes practice and perseverence.

To get out of bed when its needed and do what is needed when it is needed, instead of ruminating about what I need to do and whether I can do it all.

See, whatever needs to be done gets done anyway (or it doesn’t) with or without you ruminating.
You think LIFE cares about whether Jade ruminates about things, and what things Jade ruminates about?
You think LIFE is about YOU/Jade?

[Jade121]

Dear Magdalena,

Another gem right here:

You could use your time to fantasize about rainbow-farting unicorns just as well. Same thing.

LOL - this beautiful image is now associated with ruminating thoughts in my mind, love it!

Isn't it that we always act as best we can – if we could do better at any point, we would, wouldn’t we?
No need to worry about these things now.
You are where you are and that’s that. It’s all good. If it could be any different, it would be. That’s all. No need to overthink any of it.

Soooo true.

How about extending the compassion that is clearly felt for “the world” to “oneself”?
Wouldn’t it help to be self-compassionate first before worrying about not relating to “the world” in a compassionate way?
Like on a plane they tell you to put your own oxygen mask on first before helping anyone else?

Yes to all of the above. Before talking to you I was under the illusion that I was very self-compassionate. And it is true, I arrived at a place of acceptance where I don't have big overarching stories of shame, inadequacy or failure colouring my every day. What is still present, I see now, are little thoughts of judgement and critique, barely perceptible, there and gone in a flash. "You should have done more in this case", "This action is not good enough" or "You are wasting time" are representative examples.
Now that they are rising to the surface, I can see them and learn to meet these parts of me with compassion.

What a cute identification, isn’t it? 😉

Absolutely - one of my favourite ones. 🤣

It’s actually pretty simple: you don’t try to communicate things that you can’t communicate until you can communicate them.

I just love the simplicity and clarity here. This creates so much ease in me. Thank you.

And how do you know this is what happens?

No, having an explanation does not make me safe. The world/reality/truth is beyond words and explanations. Unfolding happens as it happens and does not care about explanations. Having explanations does pretty much nothing, but they allow me to maintain an illusory feeling of power, control and order.

And how do you know this is what happens?

Indeed, you are right, I do not know. This is an expectation, a thought about an imagined ideal future, nothing more.

Well, if so, this is about recognising thought stories as they come and not giving a sh*t about what they say.
Back to so-what.
How’s that?

Absolutely! ‘So what’ is my new mantra, possibly followed by an image of rainbow-glitter farting unicorns!

Come on, are you/Jade in control of any of it?

Nope, I am not in control of time.
It took me typing out this sentence to truly feel/experience the ridiculousness of my attempts to control time and to fully see that that is actually what I am trying to do.

You think LIFE cares about whether Jade ruminates about things, and what things Jade ruminates about?
You think LIFE is about YOU/Jade?

No.
This expression of LIFE called me/Jade gets caught up in thoughts and things, but that makes no difference. Being caught up in things is just as much an expression of LIFE as everything else is.

With Love,
Jade

[Magdalena]

Hello, Jade,

If it could be any different, it would be. That’s all.

Soooo true.

Yes, it’s true LOL but good for nothing unless it’s felt in one’s bones, deeply and uncompromisingly.

I arrived at a place of acceptance where I don't have big overarching stories of shame, inadequacy or failure colouring my every day.

OK

What is still present, I see now, are little thoughts of judgement and critique, barely perceptible, there and gone in a flash.

Here’s one way to approach this – an exercise.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.
Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.
Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

"You should have done more in this case", "This action is not good enough" or "You are wasting time" are representative examples.
Now that they are rising to the surface, I can see them and learn to meet these parts of me with compassion.

OK, another approach – let’s put it to the test:
How about recalling a person and situation that left Jade feeling hurt, upset, unseen, mistreated, what have you.
Can you see that under the circumstances, given that person’s background, life experience, beliefs, etc., there was no other option but to act the way they did?


It’s not even about acceptance, or forgiveness, or some such b/s – it's about seeing that there is nothing and no one to forgive in the first place, and – surprise, surprise – that includes YOU / Jade.
Any situation in which Jade acted hurtfully towards someone that comes to mind?
There you go.

What a cute identification, isn’t it? 😉

Absolutely - one of my favourite ones. 🤣

Ha ha ha, I get it that there’s more, but let’s look at this one first.
You know, it’s one thing to romanticise that “expression of LIFE called me/Jade” (sounds pretty pretentious, doesn’t it), and quite another to face one’s distinguished colleagues when delivering a conference present. Could also be one’s students asking tricky questions, or a reaction to seeing one’s name in print.

So tell me: how does the “I am a philosopher” ID show up in Jade’s life?

… they allow me to maintain an illusory feeling of power, control and order.

I am not in control of time.
It took me typing out this sentence to truly feel/experience the ridiculousness of my attempts to control time and to fully see that that is actually what I am trying to do.

OK, name one thing that Jade is in control of.

Being caught up in things is just as much an expression of LIFE as everything else is.

Lovely. That’s self-compassion, isn’t it?

[Jade121]

Dear Magdalena,

Yes, it’s true LOL but good for nothing unless it’s felt in one’s bones, deeply and uncompromisingly.

I live with those bones from time to time – it is deep and uncompromising when present. Right now it's just a memory somewhere in thought, easily forgotten.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.
Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Just going to do this right now and then I will answer question by question:
Where are they coming from and going to? No idea where they come from or go to.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? No, they all just popped up/formed. Some appeared more slowly than others, but none under my control.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Haha, I tried, but I have no idea how this could work. Where would you even begin?

Can you predict your next thought? Nope.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts? Impossible. I first have to have the thought that I want to do this (which is already a thought I haven’t selected from a range), then I need to come up with a list of thoughts to choose from (while I am doing that I am already thinking these thoughts individually also without selecting them from a range) and it just gets worse from here.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?No.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought? No.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Impossible.

How about recalling a person and situation that left Jade feeling hurt, upset, unseen, mistreated, what have you.
Can you see that under the circumstances, given that person’s background, life experience, beliefs, etc., there was no other option but to act the way they did?

I can see that fairly continuously and I feel it in my bones regularly – when it comes to others.
When I leave someone feeling hurt, upset, unseen, mistreated, I did the best I could under the circumstances. I had no other option but to act the way I did. (I find myself resisting to the last sentence when it comes to me – but not when it comes to others). Ha, I must be special indeed, if this is true for everyone but me🙄 .

You know, it’s one thing to romanticise that “expression of LIFE called me/Jade” (sounds pretty pretentious, doesn’t it), and quite another to face one’s distinguished colleagues when delivering a conference present. Could also be one’s students asking tricky questions, or a reaction to seeing one’s name in print.

I am not sure I get this one. Why would anything be different just because it involves distinguished colleagues or students or publications? The ‘expression of LIFE called me/Jade’ is there too – and these colleagues, critical students and pieces of papers with black ink are all expressions of LIFE too.

So tell me: how does the “I am a philosopher” ID show up in Jade’s life?

It used to be one of the main characters in this show. But I haven’t seen this particular player in a long while. So right now, it explicitly shows up in conversation with Magdalena.

Doing philosophy is very soothing to me and gives me a lot of joy. So, loosing that shows up as an existential fear sometimes. But that is different.

OK, name one thing that Jade is in control of.

Haha. Fair. Absolutely nothing. Very rarely I can experience this directly.

With Love

Jade

[Magdalena]

Morning, Jade,

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Impossible.

Well observed, all of it.
Now – what are the implications of this?

Why would anything be different just because it involves distinguished colleagues or students or publications? The ‘expression of LIFE called me/Jade’ is there too – and these colleagues, critical students and pieces of papers with black ink are all expressions of LIFE too.

Absolutely.
From how you spoke about “the philosopher”, my impression was it’s still alive and kicking.
You now say this is not the case.
And yet

right now, it explicitly shows up in conversation with Magdalena.

Doing philosophy is very soothing to me and gives me a lot of joy. So, loosing that shows up as an existential fear sometimes. But that is different.

Please say more about it.
What makes you think something can be lost?
What turns this into an existential fear?
What is different?

Fair. Absolutely nothing. Very rarely I can experience this directly.

OK, let’s have some examples of the nothing that Jade is in control of – and how it is experienced.

[Jade121]

Morning Magdalena,

Now – what are the implications of this?

That I can’t control either what thoughts show up, nor when they show up, how long they stay, I cannot choose them or manipulate them in any way. All I can do is disregard what they say.

From how you spoke about “the philosopher”, my impression was it’s still alive and kicking.

I think I might not have looked clearly enough. There is the identification with the Philosopher as social role, which is not present now. Then there is the internal attachment to philosophy as a meaning making practice of finding explanations.

What is different?

Philosophy as a practice (as an inward facing identification) is different from the social role/mask of being a Philosopher (as an outward facing identity)

What makes you think something can be lost?
What turns this into an existential fear?

This is neither logical nor reasonable. But there is fear of LIFE taking philosophy from me. How this would work? No idea. If I ‘lost my mind’ I would not be aware of there not being philosophy, so no problem. If my conversations with you lead me to lose interest in philosophy, then I would not be interested anymore, so there would not be a problem. There is no scenario I can come up with to create a problem to be afraid of.

Now that I look closer, I realise that something changed. There was an existential fear because doing philosophy used to be my ‘safe space’ – when I was upset or angry or happy I could sit down and do philosophy which would soothe me, calm me or help me express my joy. Doing philosophy used to feel like being able to fully exist, to breathe. This is shifting, there are other spaces of clearer presence and fuller breathing now.

I think this is a case where my brain has not caught up with a shift in experience. I remember being attached to the philosopher, and I identify with that memory, so I am presenting the attachment as being present now. But once I actually look at my experience, I cannot find the expected attachment anywhere.
This is a very strange experience.

OK, let’s have some examples of the nothing that Jade is in control of – and how it is experienced.

There are rare moments of the flow of LIFE acting/flowing/being through and connecting all, including this body. It unfolds as a beautiful dance and all there is, is silent awe. This is the nothing that cannot be controlled, experienced.

Best

Jade

[Magdalena]

Morning, Jade,

I can’t control either what thoughts show up, nor when they show up, how long they stay, I cannot choose them or manipulate them in any way. All I can do is disregard what they say.

Yes.
Anything else here?
Like, are YOU responsible for any kinds of thoughts that arrive, including judgemental, critical, self-blaming, etc.?

There is the identification with the Philosopher as social role, which is not present now.

Any other identifications that pop up in daily life?

Then there is the internal attachment to philosophy as a meaning making practice of finding explanations.

Does finding explanations lead to making meaning?
Does making meaning lead to finding explanations?
How do you know that either of these is the case?

What if meaning cannot be made?
What if explanations cannot be found? (whether through Jade’s own philosophising, or through the study of other people’s ideas of how things are?)

But there is fear of LIFE taking philosophy from me.

Is there a philosophy separate from LIFE?
Is there a me/Jade separate from LIFE?
Don’t go to mind for the answers – LOOK into your experience as it is RIGHT NOW.

I think this is a case where my brain has not caught up with a shift in experience. I remember being attached to the philosopher, and I identify with that memory, so I am presenting the attachment as being present now. But once I actually look at my experience, I cannot find the expected attachment anywhere.

Interesting, isn’t it? The memory is there, but the attachment is not there.
Has anything been truly lost? LOOK.

… This is the nothing that cannot be controlled, experienced.

That’s cool.

On a less poetic note though, please try this.

Palm Flipping Exercise
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down... and up and so on. Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a “controller” of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Can you track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

And then this:
Drinks Exercise
The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making “choices” is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed: a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation: Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment: Finding the function of choice
Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:
1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
We’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an “I which is doing the “choosing”.
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you “choose” the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you “choose” these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you “choose” this sequence of events? Did you “choose” to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the “choosing”? Have you seen this function in action?
In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a
mental function or faculty doing the “choosing”? Did anything arise that announced, “I am the chooser”? If so, what does this function look like?
Sometimes people describe this sense of choosing as a “feeling”: It feels like “I” did the “choosing”. But the question is, can a feeling “choose”? Is it in the nature of a feeling to “choose”?

[Jade121]

Dear Magdalena,

Like, are YOU responsible for any kinds of thoughts that arrive, including judgemental, critical, self-blaming, etc.?

No. Impossible.

Any other identifications that pop up in daily life?

No.

Does finding explanations lead to making meaning?
Does making meaning lead to finding explanations?
How do you know that either of these is the case?

There is a lot of philosophy/thought entangled here that clouds my vision. If I LOOK I cannot even tell you what/where meaning is. Explanations feel like networks of thoughts that I throw over experience like a fisherman’s net to catch a slippery meaning (whatever that is).

What if meaning cannot be made?
What if explanations cannot be found? (whether through Jade’s own philosophising, or through the study of other people’s ideas of how things are?)

Following from above I would say that some explanation that catches some meaning can always be found. But neither explanations nor meanings are real, or have anything to do with what is.

Is there a philosophy separate from LIFE?
Is there a me/Jade separate from LIFE?
Don’t go to mind for the answers – LOOK into your experience as it is RIGHT NOW.

Now you ask the question and help me look instead of think, impossible. There is nothing but LIFE. Nothing apart.

Interesting, isn’t it? The memory is there, but the attachment is not there.
Has anything been truly lost? LOOK.

Haha. No. So little in fact is lost that I didn’t even notice the attachment dropping.

Palm Flipping Exercise

When I looked at my hand and thought ‘Flip over’ nothing happened. So, I thought maybe there is a volition/will missing. But no, I wanted to flip it – it did not work. So, thought I might be resisting the experiment, but then my hand flipped. By itself. This happened repeatedly.

How is the movement controlled? I have no idea.

Does a thought control it? Not a conscious one.

Can a “controller” of any description be located? Not in my experience.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Can you track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately? I have no idea how the decision is made and there is no point I can discern where/when it is made.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise? Not even that I did – it was just chosen somehow.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down? No

What a strange, strange, strange experience.

Drinks Exercise

My first attempt was unclear, I managed to come up with two lists of qualities. Then, when I closed my eyes to count my mind kept repeating my ‘preferred choice’, as if I wanted to guess which one I would pick up. I did it twice. Once I picked up the one that was repeating on my mind, once the other.

The second attempt was worse. When I was trying to think of qualities the whole construct fell apart. I do not know what it would feel like now to taste the one or the other – it's all memories and thought. Then I closed my eyes, counted and opened them and nothing happened. There was no choice. I waited for a while, hoping that something would happen, but nothing.

I did it a third time, still nothing happened after I opened my eyes. I tried to tell myself ‘choose’, I envisioned my arm grabbing the water, then the coffee – nothing. No choice was happening. I distracted myself while keeping part of my attention on the choice, nothing. This is strange.

So now to the questions

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you “choose” the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you “choose” these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In the first attempt they popped up, in the second attempt they would not form. In the third attempt I touched one (coldness), then the other (heat), one looked more liquid the other more thick and tried to make my choice based on that.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you “choose” this sequence of events? Did you “choose” to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the “choosing”? Have you seen this function in action?

They sort of interweaved, but no I had no choice in that. There was no choosing.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the “choosing”? Did anything arise that announced, “I am the chooser”? If so, what does this function look like?
Sometimes people describe this sense of choosing as a “feeling”: It feels like “I” did the “choosing”. But the question is, can a feeling “choose”? Is it in the nature of a feeling to “choose”?

In neither experiment I had a feeling of ‘choosing’, nor did I feel like encountering anything that I could call ‘the chooser’. I cannot make myself choose.

I am not even in control of whether a choice is made or not - let alone what choice that is.


With Love

Choices unmade (Jade)