The Freedom of no Self

[aloshan]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
there is no static entity known as "self" that is moving through time that is the doer, watcher, thinker etc. Everything just seems to occur by itself, with no agent behind it.

What are you looking for at LU?
Confirmation that I have seen through the first fetter - self view - I dont feel confirmation is needed because I'm not sure what it would accomplish as I don't care about claiming attainments or formally teaching and I feel I have clearly seen the unreality of the self, but a member who was already verified and has broken all 10 fetters gave me the below reason to reach out to LU, so for humility sake I have taken his advice;

"Well for starters if you go through the process with LU its a way of validating what you think you see - does someone else who has gone through the process think you really saw what needed to be seen. You have the benefit of me saying yes that i didnt have, so i kinda had to register with the website and request someone to verify me
But also once youre through you can join the private Facebook group and have access to discussion with other people who are through the gateless gate, join in discussions, see what else they might be interested in etc
I recommend making the effort, it was well worth it for me
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... tart-here/"

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Confirmation of seeing through self view and the cleaning up of any remnant of self reference that remains. I would like more discussion around the I AM/sense of being as this seems to remain as a constant background, and there is a tendency for the mind to take this I AM/sense of being and add something to it..I am the thinker.. I am the doer etc.. What is this I AM/sense of being - logic tells me it has to be more sensation/thought, as all of experience is composed of thought either linguistic/imagistic and sensation, however after 8 years of knowing the no-self doctrine completely, I saw that it took an actual experience - actually seeing phenomena like thought pop into experience with no control of it from my end, that there is no thinker, no "I" thinking thoughts doing things. There's alot of cleaning up to do and Id like to speak to someone that has some clarity that can help me clean most efficiently

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
On the 01/02/2023 was what I think was a major shift, I have already explained my experience so I will copy paste;

*“Yesterday, my perception flipped. I saw consciousness as primary and the universe appearing in my consciousness. Not Aloshan in the universe with consciousness developed by the brain but rather consciousness was there and all else appeared in it, including the body and mind of Aloshan

In an instant I looked around and saw all things to be of me but not me that, I was what preceded all things. This peace descended over me, like an immovable rock and my perception as seeing the universe as primary hasn't returned yet.

I don't see how what I truly was could have suffered or could ever be tarnished, I am existence itself, all these things happen in me but not to me. If I forget this perspective, the solution seems to be reminding myself of the primacy of Consciousness, although currently this "Knowing" persists throughout my entire waking state. At the moment I don't fall asleep into that old paradigm of Aloshan as primary anymore, but I don't know what the future will hold, and I can say that I can see it being possible that I will forget my nature during an extremely stressful event. This I feel, is why the liberation competent is needed, to further ground myself in this realisation, so that the mind is constantly yoked to it.

There are still a large number of attachments and unskillful somatic patterns that need to be uncovered and worked through but deeply knowing that what I truly am is forever free and always has been gives me the motivation, strength and peace to continue my liberation work.

******************************************************************************************************************
Even thought I posted the above, there was still a large amount of referntial thought, a large belief in me as a mind-body unit, I seemed to have understood all this so clearly, yet I felt no awake then I did at the start of this long journey, then

Yesterday 29/02/2024, I had the below experience;

This habit of the mind always saying I am...this and I am....that - THIS is the 'I thought'

The ego is turning the sense of self/ I AM into a thought about myself..me as the person

The mind continues to imply that I am responsible for everything we experience - relentlessly - every thought. every action, every sensation - is "MINE"
however if I pay attention and look we see that everything is just appearing to us, including all thoughts and sensation - this assumption becomes demonstrably false.

It becomes very clear that I am not consciously choosing anything - all thoughts simply appear. Even the ones that appear to be consciously thought are picked from a catalogue of unconsciousness - even if I feel Iike a chooser of thoughts - my mind can only choose from the thoughts it has arrived at from my conditioning/memory - No condition or memory - no thought - and - no thinker of them.

I am not the creator or initiator of thoughts - I have no ability to predict what the mind or body will do next - they both simply react to the environment automatically and spontaneously

However the mind is constantly claiming that "I" am responsible for all thoughts and actions - this is a trick of the mind.

To know myself - I question the I thought and watch it relentlessly - once I watch the habit of the mind to associate the I with everything, a process seems to get set into motion

The issue was - that I cannot think my way out of the mind - since the mind is just a bundle of thoughts - so all of the above was known through logically, but NOT empirically, literally seeing, thoughts pop up by themselves and then a sense that I thought it - literally seeing that as another thought - was always replaced by more thinking about it. Thinking instead of experiencing it.

Last night I got a message, that seemed to attack Aloshan and caused that familiar contraction of unease - immediately my mind went to the one that it was protecting - and saw there was nothing at all. I laughed, the mind-body started all its defense mechanisms - all for a wispy thought.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[aloshan]

I would like more discussion around the I AM/sense of being as this seems to remain as a constant background, and there is a tendency for the mind to take this I AM/sense of being and add something to it..I am the thinker.. I am the doer etc.. What is this I AM/sense of being - logic tells me it has to be more sensation/thought, as all of experience is composed of thought either linguistic/imagistic and sensation, however after 8 years of knowing the no-self doctrine completely, I saw that it took an actual experience - actually seeing phenomena like thought pop into experience with no control of it from my end, that there is no thinker, no "I" thinking thoughts doing things. Ilona speaks of the I AM/being remaining , but the 8th fetter is the removal of this sense. Id like to discuss this with someone

[aloshan]

I wonder, if the issue is, if I'm trying to once again use the mind to work out intellectually what the map is when all that matters is my immediate experience.

I feel as if there is a constant here - the I AM/being. It feels like this I AM is being stolen away and given to the thoughts, I am the thinker, I am the doer. There is a sense of self that seems to rise with a thought as its thought, giving the sense of an I being the thinker of that thought. This is just a sense though - looking closer I can see that thought just appears, there isn't an author of it. This seems true of body movements as well, there is a strong sense of an I being an agent,but there is no agent to be found.

I wonder - Instead of looking at what others have said and going down this rabbit hole, it would make sense to just stay with my current experience - which is the above. No more reading, or watching videos or asking people about this - just sit with the above, until the believe "I am controlling" completely ceases and then see what else is in experience. If it leads me to the dropping away of an I AM(even though I cant intellectually understand how this could happen), so be it, but it will happen because of clear seeing, not because of something I read somewhere or something someone told me was an "8th fetter" etc. - it wont be another belief, like the insight of lack of self view, this will be organic and will be experienced and therefore known to be true directly.

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

That's a lot of words, thinking & comparisons. Let's take a look.

Seeing can come & go as we adjust to what is true. Watch this, please:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

There is a model called Ten Fetters that may go into some additional aspects of no self. Look for Pernille Damore on YouTube & others.

For finding no suffering, I always recommend The Work of Byron Katie, found here:

www.thework.com

Let me know if any of this resonates.

Much love,

Much love,

[aloshan]

Thanks Stacy. I have been on this path for some time. I have looked at the Falling video, it was of great help and helps me understand why even thought I've seen through the illusory nature of I, there are some self referential thoughts that pop up.

I've seen some of Byrons stuff before, but it didnt really resonate with me. I'll try again.

I am currently using the fetter model, the website simplytheseen.com has helped immensely.

So after so much conceptual learning over the past 4 years I decided to throw everything away, everything I thought I knew and simply look at my direct experience;

In direct experience;

There seems to be this habitual pattern making process, there seems to be this core belief of an "I" doing things, controlling things, causing things. This "I" itself points to nothing, its a label pointing to nothing in reality, like Spiderman.

So simply sitting and watching, there's thoughts that pop up and then there's this feeling of a thinker that had just thought that thought. However this sense that theres a thinker, this feeling is just there's another thought! THis apparent "I" controlling and thinking these thoughts is a thought itself


This feeling of a thinker, tt's not different from any of the other thoughts. Just now the thought appeared; "Everything around me changing." No! What is that "me" pointing to? An "I" What is the "I" pointing to? There's no there's no "I" there! So its not "everything is happening around ME, changing all the time". It's just changing all the time happening. There's no "me"! It's not happening around anything.

In the same way there seems to be a controller of this body, an "I" that says move the arm and the arm moves but No, direct experience is such;

- there's a thought move the arm, the arm moves and then after that, There's another thought, "I was the one who thought the thought move the arm" but this isnt true, that itself is a further thought.

They're all just thoughts. What a relief to just allow that everything is happening. There's no controller here, theres no proof of it whatsoever, no evidence for it and no need for it. There is no "I". There is no "me"

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

The founder of The Work of Byron Katie's name is "Katie." Byron Katie Reed Mitchell and she goes by "Katie" . . . but anyway. It's brilliant if you can get into it. But that isn't what we do here. There are many videos that can give you a deeper understanding.

Here is my usual LU introduction, which contains some helpful information and 4 questions to answer. We will go over a few basics and possibly move quickly to our traditional "final" questions to see if anything has been missed.

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that it is best to post every day.
Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Loving,

[aloshan]

Thank you Stacy, I really appreciate you taking the time our of your day to do this.

How will life change?

With less resistance and protection centred around this non-existant self, I would imagine the entirety of life to be less restrictive, with the ability to "go with the flow" instead of opposing my own ideas on it.

How will you change?

There is no "me", there is nothing to change

What will be different?

The habit of self referential thought should die down. The push and pull of life should cease as clarity around lack of identity deepens

What is missing?

Nothing is missing. The relative measure of perfection is created by the mind, but the absolute measure is reality itself. Whatever is, IS. Reality is the measure for how things should be, so nothing is ever out of accordance with how it should be.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

You can call me Aloshan. I am in AEDT (Sydney, Australia)

[Anastacia42]

Keep replies simple, concise & brief, please.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:



Colored Socks



There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.



Here is an example to illustrate the difference:



If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:



• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.



• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!



Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.



For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.



Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that



We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..



Direct or Actual Experience is



Seeing

Hearing

Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)

Tasting

Smelling

Thoughts Arising (but not their content)



Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.



Got it?

Loving

[aloshan]

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I am clear about this

[Anastacia42]

Good, so please practice here:



Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[aloshan]

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Typing

Seeing keyboard= image/color
Pressing down on keys = sensation
Hearing the keys being pressed on = sound
Thought typing = thought

Eating Breakfast

Seeing cereal= image
Smelling the milk = smell
Feeling the coldness of the bowl = sensation
Tasting the cereal = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the cereal = sound
Thought about eating cereal = thought

Showering

Seeing water run down the body= image
Smelling the soap = smell
Feeling the warmth of the water= sensation
Hearing the water fall on the floor = sound
Thought about having a shower = thought

Walking

Seeing one leg in front of the other= image
Smelling the grass = smell
Feeling the coldness of the air = sensation
Tasting the saliva = taste
Hearing feet hit the ground = sound
Thought about running = thought

[aloshan]

It has occurred to me, that there is also seems to be an "awareness of" or "knowing" of all of these senses. I have spent many years in Advaita, in which a presence of awareness/knowing is seen to be all there is. It makes me wonder if there is a knowing component to the 6 sense doors I've listed above, or if this itself is more thought.

[Anastacia42]

Good on the exercise.

Yes, some people refer to "awareness " but don't try to make that into another thought of a "self. "

Here's the next pointer:

Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

[aloshan]

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

Yes. The one without the "I" seems to be truer in direct experience.

2. What is here without labels?

Experience

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labels seem to point to specific parts of experience but do not affect the experience itself.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

There seemed to be tension or constriction when doing the the exercise where I included an I. There seemed to be a feeling of lightness/relief, noticeably less constricted when I did the second exercise without the I.

[Anastacia42]

Good. Yes, exactly.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,