Companion wanted

[Hannes]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?I imagine experiencing the dissolution of identification with the self as liberating and relaxing. In a different way, like I was finally starting to see life with more clarity instead of my stories.

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to see the truth and free the world from my illusionary stories. I've had one or two experiences of scratching the ice for insight, but I haven't gotten through it. I'm looking for someone who is already there and wants to guide me there.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
On the way to No-Self, I feel like I can't see the forest for the trees. That's why it's important to me to have a guide who can take me out of the forest. I would like very direct and honest communication.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Theory and practice for personal development, participation in Vipassana, regular meditation, a course in miracles.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Alless]

Hello Hannes

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed.

My name is Alan and I’m very happy to help you see through the notion of a separate self.

I see you have been waiting for nearly a month. We do our best to respond as soon as we can but sometimes it takes longer than we expect with the number of people asking for a guide. Just know you weren't forgotten and hope you are still happy to dive into this investigation.

So if you would like to look deeply together, here are some suggestions to help make the best use of this opportunity:

Post daily to keep up the momentum. Life continues to happen and if for some reason you find you cannot post on a particular day, or need more time, just let me know. And I’ll do the same.

Leave aside all other “spiritual” related resources - books, teachings, models, theories, philosophy and the like for the duration of our investigation. This a chance to have a completely fresh look. Try to leave aside everything you learned up till now. Here we are going to depend on your Actual Experience, not from what you have read, heard, learned or believed so far. Only from what you yourself can observe directly in the moment from looking at what is here right now.

Now the next point is about honesty which you have written about when you said

I would like very direct and honest communication.

Wonderful! Being 100% honest is so important. And write as much as you can about what you are experiencing. We avoid philosophy and theory. This is about honest exploration and we are not looking for what appears to be “right” answers. Just report as best you can only what you are experiencing in the moment.

Also now is a good time to ask you to read through some important links and let me know if you are OK with everything before we get started.

1) The LU Disclaimer http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/
2) The LU Terms and Conditions http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/
3) What LU is not https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Also, please watch this short video to learn how to use the Quote function which will help in our conversation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCbZYSvnTpc&t=1s

Sometimes system glitches happen so it’s recommended that you copy and paste into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread.

So if you'd like to get started just let me know if what we've covered here - and also in the links above - is all OK with you.

Do you have any burning questions?


Alan

[Hannes]

Thank you Alan. I am ready to start the journey.

Best,
Hannes

[Alless]

Good to see your post Hannes (I’m assuming that is what you would like to be called 😊)

Did you have a chance to have a look at the links in the previous post?


Are you OK with all of that?



As you will see I will highlight questions for you to respond to in blue text so that they are easy for you to spot.



BTW I am in the eastern time zone in Australia – AEST
What time zone are you in Hannes?



OK. So let’s get started. Thank you for what you have told us about yourself. And I do note you saying ...

I would like very direct and honest communication.

Wonderful ! That really matters here.



One thing I would really like you to talk about is what you expect from this investigation. Give yourself time to ponder these points then send me what comes.
How do you expect life to change? What will be different?




How will you change?




What do you hope to gain?




Is there anything you fear losing?




What is missing now?






And one more thing for today. Let the following statement really sink in.

There is no separate self, never has been and never will be. That there is, is all just a made up story.

What reactions - from none to subtle to strong - come up when you read that statement?



What's the first thought to pop into your head?



Do you feel any emotion(s) rising at all?



Any other reactions - subtle or strong?



I'm looking forward to investigating this notion of no self with you.


Alan

[Hannes]

Hannes is my name 😊

Did you have a chance to have a look at the links in the previous post?

Yes

Are you OK with all of that?

Yes

What time zone are you in Hannes?

CET in Germany

How do you expect life to change? What will be different?

I often feel separated from everyone else and lost in the world. When I no longer experience myself as Hannes separated from everyone, then I believe I feel the experience of deep connection and oneness with everything.

How will you change?

When the ego dissolves, there is no more ego to optimize. The constant search on the outside for something that makes me appear better, such as material things and personal development, will finally stop. Just the thought of it feels very liberating.

What do you hope to gain?

I hope to experience my natural state again instead of the artificial me.

Is there anything you fear losing?

My loved ones in my environment are used to my thinking and behavior. There is a very good chance that both will change. I'm a little worried that important people might turn their backs on me.

What is missing now?

I can't think of anything right now and am looking forward to starting. 😃

There is no separate self, never has been and never will be. That there is, is all just a made up story.

What reactions - from none to subtle to strong - come up when you read that statement?

At first there was astonishment. If there is no separate self, what am I doing all day? The astonishment then turned into curiosity about the new experience.

What's the first thought to pop into your head?

If everything is a story, why does it feel so real? What function do my 5 senses have or are they part of the story? If so, am I dreaming right now? What about the whole world and its history of seemingly separate selves?

Do you feel any emotion(s) rising at all?

Slight doubts as to whether I can manage it, but also curiosity, a sense of adventure and anticipation

Any other reactions - subtle or strong?

No

Thank you for being my teacher 😊

Please feel huged,
Hannes

[Alless]

Hello Hannes

Thank you for what you wrote of expectations.What you wrote is perfectly reasonable.

And now I am going to ask that you do your best to lay them aside !

The paradox here is that we come to this inquiry because of expectations and then we're asked to lay them aside ! Why is that? It is because they arise and exist in the realm of thought which is the domain of the illusion we are looking to see through.

Now while it is easier said than done, just do your best to leave them aside. The pointers that we will use help us do that.

And if we look honestly there is this over riding desire to "awaken." We even ask to lay that aside as it typically carries with it many assumptions about what it is.

The only valid expectation is the desire to see the truth of this that we call a "me." Once seen then other expectations will be touched. How they are touched is very individual and unique.

This notion of an "I" is the shakey (non existent) foundation on which so many of these expectations are built. This is what robs us of the peace we yearn for.

And another thing to be aware of. While we yearn to find the truth within us, it is every bit as important to find that which veils the truth. Becoming aware of what veils the truth is what this inquiry is all about.

To find the truth of "no self" the approach here is to deconstruct the idea of the separate self. It is an unlearning, an undoing and for this reason the best way to approach this is to put aside everything you think you know or expect and just be with this exploration with an openness and a willingness to LOOK directly. By applying the exercises and questions given throughout this exploration in your day to day living - not just sitting and pondering or imagining what we are exploring - but actually applying the ideas to your life and seeing them in action…actually doing the work (practical application) every day, day in and day out, you will then be able to LOOK and see that even though the separate self seems to appear over and over, the truth is that it actually can never be found. It is this continual ACTUAL EXPERIENCE that is the key. Eventually it won't matter that the sense of a separate self still appears...there is simply a knowing that it is a concept - a fictitious imaginary character. This exploration is not about getting rid of the separate self or getting rid of anything, but seeing that there was never a separate limited self to start with.

All that is asked is that you LOOK every day and LOOK diligently…not for anyone’s sake but for your own – for you to be 100% committed to yourself (as we have talked about already) in order to see through the idea of being the separate self. It is through this diligent LOOKING that realizations happen. On the flip side, being gentle with one self is also necessary. Many years of thinking one is a limited separate entity with ingrained beliefs and conditioning isn’t necessarily going to disappear overnight. So being gentle with yourself and having compassion for yourself is very necessary.

If there is no separate self, what am I doing all day? The astonishment then turned into curiosity about the new experience.

Good question - what am I doing all day. We will explore this. And lovely to hear you expressing curiosity. This is what w eso much need in this exploration.

If everything is a story, why does it feel so real? What function do my 5 senses have or are they part of the story? If so, am I dreaming right now? What about the whole world and its history of seemingly separate selves?

And we will be exploring this and digging into it to see why it feels so real and how the senses function and how they are "covered" by the story

Thank you for being my teacher

This is something we need to be very clear about. I will not be teaching in the traditional way. We will not be introducing any doctrine or particular "models" We will be exploring things through exercises, your Direct Experience and your insights about things which will be pointed to. All in your own experience. And I will be pointing you to the only true teacher - the Inner Teacher. Some call it intuition.

So let us now look at one of the keys we will use in this exploration.


Direct or Actual Experience (DE or AE for short)

So many of us humans believe we are seeing clearly when in fact we are seeing through what might be described as a fog of thought (labels, beliefs, concepts, assumptions, perspectives and many other attributes of what we call mind) This can come as a bit of a shock and also a great relief to truly see the ways in which we do this.

So what is this Direct or Actual Experiencing? For practical purposes we can identify 6 aspects of experiencing. It is PURE

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)
We are depending totally on DE to LOOK for no self.

Now here are a couple of exercises that help us experience what it is like to get out of our heads and see what is really going on in present moment experience - Direct or Actual Experience. (DE or AE)

If I was to ask you what color is the heel of your left sock or shoe, there are at least two ways to answer. One is you could answer from memory or alternatively you could go and LOOK.


What color do you think the heel of your left sock or shoe is?



Can you be 100% sure?



When you LOOK DIRECTLY is it what you thought it was?



Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

One of the traps we can fall into without even noticing is going to memory (thought) for an answer rather than LOOKING directly.

Going straight to DE EVERY TIME to EXPERIENCE an answer - no matter how simple - cuts to the core of this exploration so much faster.


One of the things that veils DE is the phenomena of labeling

Here is something Ilona wrote about labeling
https://markedeternal.blogspot.com/search?q=labels

Let’s use DE with seeing and hearing for a start

As you are sitting responding to this post describe……
What are you are seeing? (without labels.)



What are you are hearing? (without labels.)



And hugs back to you too !!!



Alan

[Hannes]

Hello Alan,

What color do you think the heel of your left sock or shoe is?

The heel of my shoe is black.

Can you be 100% sure?

Of course I'm sure.

Code: Select all

When you LOOK DIRECTLY is it what you thought it was?

No! That doesn't exist. There are also light gray areas. I never noticed that.

These 3 questions have opened my eyes to the way in which I make my direct experience. I have been able to observe this in particular over the last few days. My reference was very often based on my thoughts, which in turn gave rise to painful stories. Recognizing this and bringing myself back to my senses was very liberating.

What are you are seeing? (without labels.)

White letters on a black background. A square, black device. (Isn't the word smartphone also a label?)

What are you are hearing? (without labels.)

Noise. Paper crackling and tearing. Voices talking or sounds of people.


Admittedly, I find it harder than I thought to put the direct experience into words.

Best,
Hannes

[Alless]

Hello Hannes,

No! That doesn't exist. There are also light gray areas. I never noticed that.

That's what we want for to happen for you in this exploration. That you will notice what has not been noticed before. And that is why we will be asking you again and again to LOOK DIRECTLY and not go to thought

Recognizing this and bringing myself back to my senses was very liberating.

Beautiful !!

(Isn't the word smartphone also a label?)

Spot on.

Admittedly, I find it harder than I thought to put the direct experience into words.

Yes it can be. But we have to use labels to communicate so we by necessity give ourselves that concession. And we do our best to use the most basic or simple labels possible.


So let's take this further

Language itself is a labeling phenomenon and every word but a symbol. So what we are looking for here is to reduce the description of experience down to the most fundamental, simple descriptor. That is, describing our experience with minimal interference from the mind - without adding the content of any thoughts or interpretations. (Mind is the term we use for streams of thought. While some would challenge that such a thing as a mind exists, for practical purposes here we will use the term “mind”)


Imagine what a baby sees when they first open their eyes.

What would you say they are seeing? Do they have any labels in their mind?



If you asked a five year old what they are seeing, would what they describe be any different to what a baby actually is seeing?


If no, why not?



If yes, how would it be different?



PART II

Labeling is one "overlay" of reality that is happening so instantaneously that it happens for most people automatically without them realizing it. Labeling pervades thinking. The aim is not to rid ourselves of labels (we have to use them to communicate in conventional daily living) but to see them for what they are. Labeling is sometimes described as at least one step removed from reality.

Here is an exercise to help see how labeling can cloud AE. (I’ll use AE as short for Actual Experience)

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN', what is your actual experience?



You are seeing green, right? Or as you look at the word green are you actually seeing red but believing the minds interpretation of the word green?



Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?



Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?



If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?



Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?



Let me know what is SEEN.




Next time you go for a walk practice looking without labeling.

I’d love to hear. What happened?



Alan 

[Hannes]

Hi Alan,

What would you say they are seeing? Do they have any labels in their mind?

Babies see things as they are because they have not yet given things any meaning. They hear different sounds and can't assign anything to them.

If you asked a five year old what they are seeing, would what they describe be any different to what a baby actually is seeing?

If no, why not?
If yes, how would it be different?

The 5-year-old child has learned to express himself through language and has had many experiences that serve as a reference for new things. As a result, he can give things meanings and put labels on them.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN', what is your actual experience?

I know that the word refers to the color green, but in my direct experience I only see the color red.

You are seeing green, right? Or as you look at the word green are you actually seeing red but believing the minds interpretation of the word green?

I see red and I have to really focus on the meaning of the word to see the colour green.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

There is no direct experience of the colour green, only red but an idea of what the label points too arise in my mind.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

The word green has no meaning if it is written in red. In my direct experience, I only perceive the color red. The word green is a label when I become aware of its meaning beyond the written color.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.

Yes. I see only my meaning of the colour red. Redness points to attention and caution which is more related to ‚bad‘.

Next time you go for a walk practice looking without labeling.
I’d love to hear. What happened?

I'm already better at letting go of stories, building them up in my mind. However, I can't let go of labeling. I hear car noises and have no idea how to describe them without the word car noises. I perceive scents and have no idea how to describe them without using the label Indian food. My perception and language are based almost exclusively on the process of labeling.

Best, Hannes

[Alless]

Hi Hannes,

Babies see things as they are because they have not yet given things any meaning.

Yes they see things as they are.
When seeing things as they are what is it that they actually see in the most basic terms?


Your seeing in this red / green exercise is very clear. Very good. Your seeing of red instead of letting the label green over ride the direct seeing is clear seeing.

As a result, he can give things meanings and put labels on them.

Yes, children do this after language becomes part of their lived experience. This is part of what we can refer to as "conditioning"

My perception and language are based almost exclusively on the process of labeling.

Yes language is the process of labeling needed to communicate.
However pure perception is not based on labeling - pure perception is "prior" to thought and is experiencing directly without thought or labels.

As we pointed to earlier do babies perceive directly without labels?



Is that clear for you?



Now we are going to take PURE SEEING a step further.


In the light of what has now been seen......... here is a sentence from the Label-Reality Correlation exercise again

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggest?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As you LOOK at the sentence above and without any reference to thought, what is actually SEEN? What is your Actual Experience here?




Just this simple exercise for today Hannes.



Alan

[Hannes]

Hi Alan,

When seeing things as they are what is it that they actually see in the most basic terms?

In most basic terms, babies see shapes in colors without being able to describe one or the other.

As we pointed to earlier do babies perceive directly without labels? Is that clear for you?

Yes, it is clear.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggest?

As you LOOK at the sentence above and without any reference to thought, what is actually SEEN? What is your Actual Experience here?

Ahhh… 😅 I see only red. Before I saw behind the colour to what the words are pointing to. I understand. Pure seeing is done without reference to thought.

Have a nice day, Alan

[Alless]

Hi Hannes,

In most basic terms, babies see shapes in colors without being able to describe one or the other.

Do they see color AND shapes?

Pure seeing is done without reference to thought.

Yes !


And you also report ......

Ahhh… 😅 I see only red.

We'll take a close look and see if this is truly so.


For ease of reference here is the sentence again


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggest?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As you LOOK at the sentence above and without any reference to thought, what is actually SEEN?



So, looking at the sentence again what do you actually SEE?

What is directly seen here is red, black and white is it not? It can actually feel like a trick question because while it's such a simple exercise, it can powerfully demonstrate how quickly thoughts can sabotage and hypnotize

As a side note (and you may have experienced this already) if you show someone the page of any book and ask them what they see, invariably they will say something like words or letters. Rarely does anyone say "I see the white of the page." And yet the white is what takes up most of the page and we could not read the words without it!

And I'll ask you to look again because in fact what we really notice when we are looking at the sentence in this exercise, we also see green (lines delineating the sentence) and also blue (the color of the text in the question) even though we are not focusing on it per say, it is still SEEN.

Now hold your gaze on the sentence again and without moving your eyes or your head.
Are you not also aware of the oranges, greys, blacks of the LU website background behind the white text panel?



Now again without moving your eyes or head let your gaze soften even more and notice your peripheral vision.
Can you see more colors which are part of your computer screen or devise and out into the room where you are?



Take a couple of minutes with a soft gaze to simply notice all that is seen in this moment.
How would you describe what you are experiencing? As you let your gaze soften and your eyes de-focus even slightly, what happens to thoughts?



Now let’s remind ourselves what this exploration is all about. It's to look for the “me.”
So right now can any specific thing that we could label the “me” be found?



Now, turn your attention to the SEEING itself as you LOOK.
Can you find a specific place from which SEEING arises?


As you continue to look can you find a “me” that is in control of the SEEING?



Can you choose to stop SEEING?



While what we are LOOKING AT is continually changing does the SEEING ITSELF change in any way?




So explore the SEEING that is happening with these questions in mind and tell me anything else about your DIRECT EXPERIENCE that you are noticing



Spend some time with this to really notice what you see.


And have some fun with all this Hannes !!


Alan

[Hannes]

Hi Alan,

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggest?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As you LOOK at the sentence above and without any reference to thought, what is actually SEEN?

On a very basic level I see only white, black and red.

Now hold your gaze on the sentence again and without moving your eyes or your head.
Are you not also aware of the oranges, greys, blacks of the LU website background behind the white text panel?

I see blue on a white background.

Now again without moving your eyes or head let your gaze soften even more and notice your peripheral vision.
Can you see more colors which are part of your computer screen or devise and out into the room where you are?

I see black and more blue on a white background.

Take a couple of minutes with a soft gaze to simply notice all that is seen in this moment.
How would you describe what you are experiencing? As you let your gaze soften and your eyes de-focus even slightly, what happens to thoughts?

I see black and even more blue on a white background.

So right now can any specific thing that we could label the “me” be found?

There is no "me" outside of myself while pure seeing without thoughts.

Can you find a specific place from which SEEING arises?

The seeing arises out of my eyes.

As you continue to look can you find a “me” that is in control of the SEEING?

When I look for an "I" in the area around my eyes, I find nothing that is in control of the seeing. The only way of control is to change the direction to see what is on the right instead of the left.

Can you choose to stop SEEING?

No. Even when I close my eyes I see black.

While what we are LOOKING AT is continually changing does the SEEING ITSELF change in any way?

The act of seeing remains the same. However, the intention is different when I wear or take off my glasses.

So explore the SEEING that is happening with these questions in mind and tell me anything else about your DIRECT EXPERIENCE that you are noticing

Seeing without reference to thoughts makes me fade into the background and perceive the world as a passive observer. When I do this well, I feel no need to react to the things that appear in my field of vision because I am looking at them without meaning.

Best,
Hannes

[Alless]

Hi Hannes,


I notice there is a question you missed about what babies see. So here it is again for you to answer Hannes
You said.....

In most basic terms, babies see shapes in colors without being able to describe one or the other.

Here is the question again for your answer please
Do babies see color AND shapes?



And also please look at this question again.

Now again without moving your eyes or head let your gaze soften even more and notice your peripheral vision.

Can you see more colors which are part of your computer screen or devise and out into the room where you are?
I see black and more blue on a white background.

You say you "see black and more blue on a white background" Please LOOK again with a RELAXED GAZE at your PERIPHERAL FIELD of vision.
Can you not see more colors than just black blue and white when you take in your peripheral vision, that which you see out of the "corner" of your eye so to speak?

There is no "me" outside of myself while pure seeing without thoughts.

Please describe what "myself" is

The seeing arises out of my eyes.

What about when you have an image in your mind - is there seeing there?



Close your eyes and think of the picture of a pink elephant.
Did you use your eyes to see it?



What about when you dream - is there seeing then?



When you dream or see an image in imagination do you use your eyes?

The only way of control is to change the direction to see what is on the right instead of the left.

What specifically is in control of the change of direction?

No. Even when I close my eyes I see black.

Indeed !
Close your eyes and LOOK again CLOSELY
Is it only black?

However, the intention is different when I wear or take off my glasses.

How does your intention change when you have your glasses on compared to when you have them off?

Seeing without reference to thoughts makes me fade into the background

How would you describe the "me" before it fades into the background?



Alan

[Hannes]

Please excuse the late response. I was ill the last days…

Here is the question again for your answer please
Do babies see color AND shapes?

I am not sure how to answer the question. I would say they see colors and shapes without knowing that‘s colors and shapes.

You say you "see black and more blue on a white background" Please LOOK again with a RELAXED GAZE at your PERIPHERAL FIELD of vision.
Can you not see more colors than just black blue and white when you take in your peripheral vision, that which you see out of the "corner" of your eye so to speak?

I have used my peripheral vision only on the screen and not to it‘s full extend. Than I see more colors.


„There is no "me" outside of myself while pure seeing without thoughts.“

Please describe what "myself" is

I can’t follow my thought of „me outside of myself“ Sorry. Mental overload is rising.


„What about when you have an image in your mind - is there seeing there?“
I would call it remembering and not seeing.

Close your eyes and think of the picture of a pink elephant.
Did you use your eyes to see it?

No, I don‘t.

What about when you dream - is there seeing then?

No.

When you dream or see an image in imagination do you use your eyes?

No, I don‘t.

What specifically is in control of the change of direction?

It is me when I turn my head.

Close your eyes and LOOK again CLOSELY
Is it only black?

You are right. If I turn my head in a dark direction with my eyes closed, I only see black with my eyes closed. If I turn my head in the direction of a yellow light source, the yellow shimmers through.

How does your intention change when you have your glasses on compared to when you have them off?

I used the wrong word. I mean intensity. The seeing doesn‘t change with or without glasses but I see more clearly with glasses.

How would you describe the "me" before it fades into the background?

The "I" is active and tries to "feed" itself by interpreting what has happened. It creates stories and tries to either identify with or separate itself from what has happened.


Best,
Hannes