Greetings!

[Blanca]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Hmmm… I suppose it means that we all become progressively insane from birth. That we all come to believe in a fictitious collection of thoughts, patterns, behaviors, proclivities, and processes that we label with our own name.

What are you looking for at LU?
Honestly, it would be a relief to meet anyone else who is on this path. Any support or guidance would be so helpful. I feel like I’m navigating something quite disorienting largely alone, and having someone who understands this territory to talk to would be amazing.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Genuinely don’t know what’s to expect… I think that’s part of why I’m here. Maybe some clarity, or just a conversation with someone who has been through this. I’m open to whatever the process involves and willing to explore it.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I meditate and practice Buddhism.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

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[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca
(what do you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.

What time zone are you in?
Love
Rali

[Blanca]

Hi Rali! Pleasure to meet you. I am looking forward to beginning the process. I've read the post in its entirety. You can find my answers below.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them

Confirmed. I've read the article and understand its contents.

What time zone are you in?

I am in the EST timezone. I live on the east coast of the U.S.

Cheers!

Blanca

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

I am in the EST timezone. I live on the east coast of the U.S.

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage

I am looking forward to beginning the process.

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[Blanca]

Thank you for your prompt response, Rali. And yes, I am subscribed. :)

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I genuinely don't know. I get the sense that both everything and nothing will be different. I know better than to expect old conditioning, habits, etc. to fall away. I know better than to expect or hope for a blissful state. What I don't know is what happens on the other side. When I try to imagine it, my mind goes fairly blank.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I start to have to use my imagination when I think about this, but the only expectation I have is that I will have internalized a truth I can only recognize intellectually and theoretically. In the 90s in the U.S., I used to sometimes see posters made up of grainy colors with no apparent pattern, but if I looked at it from a certain angle, I'd suddenly see there was a 3D image buried in there. And once you saw the image, you couldn't unsee it. That's what I expect it would be. I just suddenly or gradually see the truth that was always there.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I suppose I don't want this to erode any relationships I have. I also wouldn't want it to destabilize me mentally or emotionally.

4. What are you hoping for?

I hesitate to hope for much of anything, but I think deep down I hope for an acceptance and peace with the way things actually are, as opposed to how I think they are.

5. What is missing?

I don't know that anything is really missing, but I know that I seem to learn best when I am able to have a dialogue with someone else. That's what made LU so interesting to me. I know I say "I don't know" a lot, but that's because I'm pretty clueless about everything.

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca
Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

What I don't know is what happens on the other side.

Not knowing is actually good. Knowing comes from the mind/thoughts and here we are not interested in knowing but looking into direct experience.

I suppose I don't want this to erode any relationships I have. I also wouldn't want it to destabilize me mentally or emotionally.

It is quite normal to fear change, but check the assumption...
Are “you” managing life successfully through control? Or are things already just… happening?
Breathing, thinking, reacting, speaking—did you create any of that just now?

Like I said, it’s just a shift of perception. How can an illusion have relationships/lack of them? An illusion is an illusion. It has never existed and it never will … it just looks like something else

Life expresses itself and "we" are part of this expression. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we think, we do things and we need protection, but when we examine this closely, we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker. Things are just happening.
Fear/resistance serves to protect the imaginary self from harm. Fear protects old ways. In this case it protects “you” from changing and losing your “humanity” (emotions). But let’s be clear here… why would the absence of something that has NEVER existed cause a change in existing stuff?
You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?
Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary. Please let me know what you find.

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Do it a few times. Again the more you uncover, the better starting point we have. Whatever comes up is "right", it is exactly what needs to be seen right now. As usual, honesty will make this work

Love
Rali

[Blanca]

Is that OK with you?

Yes, though what do you mean by all seeking will end?

Are “you” managing life successfully through control? Or are things already just… happening?
Breathing, thinking, reacting, speaking—did you create any of that just now?

Intellectually I know that these things are automatic and the result of causes and conditions that precede them. But I can't shake the feeling that there is a "me" in charge of all of these reactions. I realize it's just another feeling, but it's the most dominant one. I think part of this is that I experienced a good deal of trauma as a child, so I feel a strong need to control. Control gives me the illusion of safety. So the idea that there is no "I" controlling anything is one that I'm subconsciously resisting. And it does feel subconscious. Because when I bring these ideas up to the light and really examine them, they seem self-evident. Of course I don't control thinking or speaking or reacting. And yet, the feeling of being in control persists.

How can an illusion have relationships/lack of them?

For that matter, what are relationships? Another illusion? But that doesn't feel true either.

why would the absence of something that has NEVER existed cause a change in existing stuff?

I think the problem I get stuck at is the idea that I never existed.

See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary. Please let me know what you find.

I may be reaching, but it seems like the fear I associate with destabilization or relationships eroding is very similar to the fear of death. It's fundamentally a fear of annihilation of the self as I believe it to be. My mind, my body, my thoughts and my feelings.

If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

When I look for the "I," my mind's eye conjures up an image of the inside of my head, but hollowed out. When I think: but then who is seeing the image? My breath catches a little bit and I have to sit perfectly still for a second. It genuinely feels like a computer glitch.

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca

Thank you for your thorough and honest reply. It gives me an idea how we can "approach" this :).
But before we start…
You said this feels like annihilation:

I may be reaching, but it seems like the fear I associate with destabilization or relationships eroding is very similar to the fear of death. It's fundamentally a fear of annihilation of the self as I believe it to be. My mind, my body, my thoughts and my feelings.

Let’s test that directly. Right now, in this moment:
Is anything actually disappearing?
Or is there just sensation + thought saying “this is dangerous”?
Look carefully.

Just to make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises, let me clarify looking.
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something. If I asked you to tell me what is behind your back right now, you could answer by doing one of two things: by thinking and remembering, or by turning your head around and actually looking back and describing what you see. If I ask you to look for your phone or keys, you would quite naturally, take a look and locate them. That’s how to look.
Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target. Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).

Thus, there is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is one more example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.


Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Love
Rali

[Blanca]

Is anything actually disappearing?
Or is there just sensation + thought saying “this is dangerous”?
Look carefully.

I think one of the things I'm struggling with is that I can't differentiate between what is my own seeing and what is being influenced by the way your questions are posed. What I mean is that I find myself affirming the second question (yes, it's just a sensation and a thought...), but I don't know if I would have come to that conclusion on my own.

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

Yes. I can only affirm something 100% by looking.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I'm going to be perfectly honest and tell you that I had to ask an AI chatbot for help with this, but I get it now. I am to rely only on my senses (sight, hearing, touch sensations, tasting, smelling, and the noticing of thoughts that arise without considering the content). To go beyond the use of these senses is not direct experiencing.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Are you asking if the sum of all those components that I call "apple" is a real thing that can be known by direct experience? Once again, I understand the answer is no, but I am having a hard time really feeling it as true.

Thank you for being patient as I work my way through this. :)

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca
Thank you for your honest reply!

Thank you for being patient as I work my way through this. :)

Don’t worry, it’s quite normal to struggle with this. Mind has been working in a certain way for a while and now it’s been asked to change this completely :)

What I mean is that I find myself affirming the second question (yes, it's just a sensation and a thought...), but I don't know if I would have come to that conclusion on my own.

You see, that is the difference – I am not asking you to confirm one or the other (through thinking). I’m asking you to LOOK and check for yourself, and then report.

I'm going to be perfectly honest and tell you that I had to ask an AI chatbot for help with this, but I get it now. I am to rely only on my senses (sight, hearing, touch sensations, tasting, smelling, and the noticing of thoughts that arise without considering the content). To go beyond the use of these senses is not direct experiencing.

Great! Let’s do an exercise to see the difference between DE and thought content more clearly…
Close your eyes and imagine holding a watermelon in your hands. Imagine it so vividly that you can feel its weight, the shape and texture of the skin. Hold it there, sensing it. Then open your eyes.
What happened to the melon? How about the sensation that was so believable? Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’? Was there an appearing mental image? Was the content of the mental image (the melon) ‘real’?
The thoughts and mental images are real only as DE of thoughts and mental images, their appearance cannot be denied. However their ‘contents’, what they are about (like the watermelon) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Now that you know the difference between DE and thought content let’s use this:

Are you asking if the sum of all those components that I call "apple" is a real thing that can be known by direct experience? Once again, I understand the answer is no, but I am having a hard time really feeling it as true.

All you have is DE – the senses and thought. Whatever is not in the first five is a thought. So all you have with "apple" is particular visceral sensation (labelled “apple), particular visceral colour/shape (labelled “apple”), particular visceral smell (labelled “apple), and particular visceral taste (labelled “apple) – no sound in this case. So where exactly is the object apple, the thing? Is it somewhere outside of DE? Check… are there two things - senses and the object – or just one thing (the senses + thought/label)? Is there a visible border where the object crosses to be experienced?
For example… Where is the image (colour/shape) of the object, is it inside or outside of you? If it is seen inside or outside, where is the border where the image crosses over from being outside to being inside of you? What does the border consist of?
Don’t think about it, LOOK! Refer only to what can be found, not to commenting thoughts.
Can this border be seen, heard, smelled, touched, or/and tasted? OR is the border assumed (thought)?
Love
Rali

[Blanca]

What ha

ppened to the melon? How about the sensation that was so believable? Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’? Was there an appearing mental image? Was the content of the mental image (the melon) ‘real’?

The melon disappeared, along with the sensation that seemed so real before. No, there was no melon in objective reality, despite there being a melon in my thoughts. As such, the melon was not real. This is such a useful practice when I have other thoughts and feelings. For example, right now, I am feeling agitated because of an unrelated issue at work. But the thing I think about the issue at work is not real, only a mental projection. I don't think I have internalized it yet, but I am starting to see the truth of it.

what they are about (like the watermelon) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Yes, though it's harder to apply this to thoughts about a thought object that isn't as neutral as a melon.

All you have is DE – the senses and thought. Whatever is not in the first five is a thought. So all you have with "apple" is particular visceral sensation (labelled “apple), particular visceral colour/shape (labelled “apple”), particular visceral smell (labelled “apple), and particular visceral taste (labelled “apple) – no sound in this case. So where exactly is the object apple, the thing? Is it somewhere outside of DE? Check… are there two things - senses and the object – or just one thing (the senses + thought/label)? Is there a visible border where the object crosses to be experienced?
For example… Where is the image (colour/shape) of the object, is it inside or outside of you? If it is seen inside or outside, where is the border where the image crosses over from being outside to being inside of you? What does the border consist of?

I'm so sorry, I'm afraid you lost me here. Are we talking about a real physical apple, a picture of an apple, or a thought of an apple?

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca

I'm so sorry, I'm afraid you lost me here. Are we talking about a real physical apple, a picture of an apple, or a thought of an apple?

Forget the labels for a moment.
Take an actual apple (if you have one), or anything nearby.
Now answer only from direct experience:
What is actually present? (colour? shape? sensation? thought?)
Can you find an “object” separate from what is seen + what is felt + the thought/label? Are there an image/colour/shape (the seen) AND an object, or just the seen??
Is there anything there besides colour + sensation + thought?
Don’t think about it. Just look and report what is actually there.

Love
Rali

[Blanca]

What is actually present? (colour? shape? sensation? thought?)
Can you find an “object” separate from what is seen + what is felt + the thought/label? Are there an image/colour/shape (the seen) AND an object, or just the seen??
Is there anything there besides colour + sensation + thought

Next to me there is a bowl. Using direct experience only, I pick it up and see it is black, it feels like plastic, and my mind labels it “bowl.” There is no separate object beyond these sensations and the thought “bowl.”

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca

Next to me there is a bowl. Using direct experience only, I pick it up and see it is black, it feels like plastic, and my mind labels it “bowl.” There is no separate object beyond these sensations and the thought “bowl.”

Good. Stay with that. Now look more closely… Right now, when you say “bowl”, is there anything there besides colour, sensation, and thought (the label “bowl”)?
Does the “object” only exist as the label?
Furthermore, check something even more subtle…
Without the thought “bowl”, what is left?
Is there still an “object”?
Or just colour + sensation?
Look directly, don’t think.

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Love
Rali

[Blanca]

Hi Rali! I found today's post an incredibly useful exercise, so thank you for guiding me through it. :)

is there anything there besides colour, sensation, and thought (the label “bowl”)?
Does the “object” only exist as the label?

The object only exists as color, sensation, and the label bowl. There is no inherent "bowl-ness" beyond the shape.

Without the thought “bowl”, what is left?
Is there still an “object”?
Or just colour + sensation?

Without the label, there is no bowl as an object. It is the label I add to the black, plastic concave shape that makes it a "bowl" to me.

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Today in the shower, I looked around and saw blue (stone), felt warm and wet (water), felt slimy texture (shampoo), smelled a fragrance (soap), heard soft pattering (water falling on the floor), felt happy (thought + pleasant sensation).