Greetings!

[Blanca]

Hi Rali! I don't know if it's the result of all this inquiry, but in the past couple of days, I have felt weirdly happy. I've been having fun switching my attention from one sense to the next and seeing things as though for the first time. I am, as always, grateful for your patient and loving support!

In direct experience, are “eyeballs” actually experienced? Or is there just seeing, plus a thought about eyes/eyeballs?

No, I don't experience eyeballs. I meant that as long as the mechanical components that cause sight to arise are functioning, I will see (whether I want to or not).

With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?

Yes, there is blackness with subtle gradations of color. All dark.

Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?

Aside from the subtle gradations in color, no. There is nothing other than blackness.

Can what is seeing/witnessing the blackness be found? Can a pair of eyes be found that is witnessing the blackness?

No, there is just the blackness.

Can an 'I' / 'me'/Blanca/presence/awareness be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?

No, there is no "I/Blanca/presence" to be found using DE. It is a conceptual overlay.

Right now, is there anything that is “I am”… separate from seeing_hearing_feeling_tasting_smelling_thinking?
Or is “I am” just another label added on top of what is already happening?

Right now, is there anything that is “I am”… separate from seeing_hearing_feeling_tasting_smelling_thinking?
Or is “I am” just another label added on top of what is already happening?

I still kind of think of myself as "behind" the thinking, feeling, seeing, etc. But that is clearly a thought.

When the thought appears: “I am this” or “this is me”, does it point to anything real?

No, it doesn't point to anything real. When I really look, there is just this. Sensations, thoughts, seeing, hearing. I can detect no separate self "doing" these things.

B

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca,
Good. Let’s look very precisely at this:

I still kind of think of myself as "behind" the thinking, feeling, seeing, etc.

You “think” these thoughts???
Check! A thought appears “I’m "behind" the thinking, feeling, seeing, etc.”. Did you create it? Did you know what it would be before it appeared?
Now look closer… Can you find the exact moment where “you” starts thinking it? Or does the thought just… show up?
That’s very important! A thought may say: “I am thinking”. Is that anything more than another thought? Or is it just a claim with nothing behind it?
Now one step deeper… Is there anything that is witnessing thoughts? Believing thoughts? Aware of thoughts? Look carefully.
Can such a “witness” or “believer” be found anywhere?
Or is there just a thought appearing, followed sometimes by another thought commenting on it? Thoughts about thoughts? Thought about thoughts (secondary thoughts) about thoughts (third thoughts)?
This sense of being “behind”, is it anything more than a subtle sensation plus a thought describing it as “behind”?
Is there actually anything located “behind” experience? A mini ”me” sitting in a tiny armchair pulling levers? Where? Between locationless sensations, labelled "head"? LOOK for proof! Any evidence for that? Or is “behind” just another idea added by thought?
Thoughts are useful at the first level (describing DE). The further layers (secondary and third thoughts) is where the illusion is. But don’t try to fix this - you can’t! (as there is no “you” that can do that) - just notice it (first thoughts)!
Without referring to thought, is there any separation at all between what is happening and “what you are”? Or is there just… this?
Is there a thinker / witness / believer of thoughts or just thoughts appearing?
Don’t answer from reasoning. Watch it happen and report what is actually found.
Love
Rali

[Blanca]

Hi Rali! Just letting you know that I read your post and will respond tomorrow. I’m traveling today and won’t be able to take as much time as I’d like to respond. Talk soon!

[Blanca]

Hi Rali -

Did you create it? Did you know what it would be before it appeared?
Now look closer… Can you find the exact moment where “you” starts thinking it? Or does the thought just… show up?

The thoughts just showed up when I read your question. I didn't actively choose them. And I also can't find the moment when they appeared.

A thought may say: “I am thinking”. Is that anything more than another thought? Or is it just a claim with nothing behind it?

It's just a thought. A persistent one, since I have been aware of it in the past, but a thought nonetheless.

Can such a “witness” or “believer” be found anywhere?
Or is there just a thought appearing, followed sometimes by another thought commenting on it? Thoughts about thoughts? Thought about thoughts (secondary thoughts) about thoughts (third thoughts)?

No, there are just thoughts. But they come so quickly (especially the ones that pertain to "me") that it feels like it's all one lump of thoughts with me behind it.

Is there actually anything located “behind” experience? A mini ”me” sitting in a tiny armchair pulling levers? Where? Between locationless sensations, labelled "head"? LOOK for proof! Any evidence for that? Or is “behind” just another idea added by thought?

No, there isn't a tiny "me" sitting in my head pulling the levers. When I use direct experience to just look, I realize that it is just another thought layered over other thoughts.

Thoughts are useful at the first level (describing DE). The further layers (secondary and third thoughts) is where the illusion is.

That makes complete sense! Never thought of it that way.

Without referring to thought, is there any separation at all between what is happening and “what you are”? Or is there just… this?
Is there a thinker / witness / believer of thoughts or just thoughts appearing?

I do not directly experience a witness/thinker/etc. Thoughts appear, and even my belief in them is just secondary thought about the primary thought. Fascinating (This would be my third thought :).

B

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca,
This is very clear. Thinking is seen as it is: thoughts just appear, no thinker can be found, no witness can be found to know them or interpret/believe them, “I am thinking” is just another thought. Good.
Now let’s go directly to the last piece:

it feels like it’s all one lump of thoughts with me behind it

Look very carefully at that. Remember:
feels like, seems like = thought content
Nothing is seems like/feels like in DE - either here or not. Whatever is not the senses is a thought.
Let’s check this properly
What is this “feels like me behind it”? A subtle sensation? A thought saying “this is me”?
Break it down… Is there an actual “behind” found anywhere? Keep on looking until it’s seen for sure! Can you point to it in direct experience?
Or is “behind” just an idea, a mental positioning on the map of a”body” (aka sensations) added by thought?
Stay with the raw experience, until it’s clearly seen… Thoughts are appearing, sensations are present. Now… Is there anything else there that is separate / behind /owning it?
Thoughts add an overlaying narrative of names, labels, interpretations, explanations over the simplicity of what is. But these are just labels and some of them are not even pointing to existing stuff. "A body", "a head", a "brain" are useful labels (icons on your desktop) for communication pointing to sensations, colours, etc. (first thoughts talking about DE), but what is the "me" label pointing to in reality?

Check about that feeling of “me” — does it prove a self exists?
Or is it just a sensation plus a thought labelling it “me”?
Never answer conceptually. Look at it directly and report what is actually found. Keep it always fresh!
Love
Rali

[Blanca]

Hi Rali - My responses below.

What is this “feels like me behind it”? A subtle sensation? A thought saying “this is me”?
Break it down… Is there an actual “behind” found anywhere? Keep on looking until it’s seen for sure! Can you point to it in direct experience?
Or is “behind” just an idea, a mental positioning on the map of a”body” (aka sensations) added by thought?

The feeling of "me behind" is an idea that comes from a subtle sensation. I don't know why my mind places a location of "behind" on it.

Is there anything else there that is separate / behind /owning it?

No, there is no space between the thoughts or sensations and what I perceive as "me." There is literally just thoughts arising and sensation felt.

(first thoughts talking about DE), but what is the "me" label pointing to in reality?

I think I see what you mean here. Thoughts that apply basic labels to things like "shoes" or "phone" are useful for functioning in the world, but second or third thoughts like "ugly shoes" or "old phone" are where the illusion creeps in. And the "me" in everything ("I hate my ugly shoes") seems to be the ultimate illusion. It doesn't point to anything that really exists and meanwhile, it has overlayed a bunch of junk to the first thought (shoes).

Check about that feeling of “me” — does it prove a self exists?
Or is it just a sensation plus a thought labelling it “me”?

There is nothing that I can directly experience as proof of a "me" other than the sensation of awareness. When I explore that sensation of awareness to see if there is a separate "me" within it, I find nothing.

B

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca
Very clear!

There is nothing I can directly experience as proof of a ‘me’ other than the sensation of awareness.

Good. Now let’s look very precisely at this “sensation of awareness”...
Is it anything more than a sensation plus a thought labelling it “awareness”?
Does the sensation itself say “I am awareness”? Or is that another thought added on top?
Does “awareness” exist separate from THIS (seeing, hearing, thinking, …)?
Or is it just another way of describing what is already happening?
When you say “awareness”, are you pointing to something real or using a word to group experience together?
Is there awareness + experience or just THIS?
Don’t answer from memory. Look fresh and report what is actually found.

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca
Very clear!

There is nothing I can directly experience as proof of a ‘me’ other than the sensation of awareness.

Good. Now let’s look very precisely at this “sensation of awareness”...
Is it anything more than a sensation plus a thought labelling it “awareness”?
Does the sensation itself say “I am awareness”? Or is that another thought added on top?
Does “awareness” exist separate from THIS (seeing, hearing, thinking, …)?
Or is it just another way of describing what is already happening?
When you say “awareness”, are you pointing to something real or using a word to group experience together?
Is there awareness + experience or just THIS?
Don’t answer from memory. Look fresh and report what is actually found.

Love
Rali

[Blanca]

Hi Rali!

Is it anything more than a sensation plus a thought labelling it “awareness”?
Does the sensation itself say “I am awareness”? Or is that another thought added on top?

Holy cow it really just is a label I'm putting on the sum of my sensory experience! When I look, I find nothing except hearing + seeing + thought.

But then more thoughts come in and I seem to stop the actual looking.

I also struggle to see the "just this" of it all for longer than a few seconds at a time.

I don't know how to sustain the looking. :/

B

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca
Good. But now look at what you just said:

I don’t know how to sustain the looking

Look carefully.
Who would sustain it?
What would sustain what?
Looking happens. Then thoughts appear. Then maybe looking happens again.
Where is the problem?
You say:

I can only see it for a few seconds

Check this!
Does what is seen disappear? Or do thoughts just come in and comment?
Does “this” go anywhere?
Or do thoughts simply continue commenting on whatever happens next or on previous thoughts?
You are trying to turn this into a continuous state. But this is not a state. There is nothing to maintain. Notice the expectation and let it go
Do you need to hold on to being, because it can slip away? Or it can be taken away?
Even when thoughts appear, is there still seeing, still hearing, still sensation?
Has “this” actually stopped? Or is there experience happening and thoughts saying “I lost it”
Without trying to hold anything, Is there anything missing?
Stop trying to sustain it. See that it doesn’t need sustaining.
Looking happens (thoughts about DE), thoughts about thoughts happen. Is this in your control?? It’s like any other habitual thought - the more repetition, the higher likelihood of appearing. It will happen when it happens.
Seeing rarely is 24/7. There's likely to be a "honeymoon period," and then what we call, "got it, lost it," as untrue beliefs come up to be questioned. This can go on for months and years. This initial shift is irreversible, just as we can never go back to believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.
Much of the old organisation lingers on, in the guise of a “world” that we continue to experience and in habitual patterns of thought and activity that our surroundings continue to elicit. That very much applies to seeing the illusion of an “I” - it’s quite a sudden change with a relatively long process of adapting to this change. The recognition of no self is just the beginning of seeing life and “yourself” in a new light. First-person pronouns still arise with the same ease they always had, even if such ideas have no more actual meaning than talking about Santa Claus once we learn “he” doesn’t exist either.
It takes time to clean up all old beliefs and conditioning. It wasn't formed in a day so it won't disappear in a day either. To “deal” with this, question everything, and little by little you will notice changes in everyday life: less judgment, more openness; less thinking, more appreciation; less story, more being; less structure, more flow. You will notice that some habitual thoughts no longer arise. The story changes in a way that allows more space for simply being.
The more spotting of untrue beliefs, the less chance of them appearing again - thought trimming itself down.
Just look.
You may be thinking that this is not enough, that some experiences need to happen, that you should be happy and blissful all the time. When these thoughts arise, bring the focus to what is present here now. Just THIS. And look again: what is here that wants THIS to be different (including the presence of doubtful thoughts)? Are those doubtful thoughts even yours
Love
Rali

[Blanca]

Hi Rali! Much to digest in your response.

Who would sustain it?
What would sustain what?

I think I see your point here. When I look to see who would sustain it, I come to the realization that according to DE, there is nothing buy senses and thoughts. So who would sustain it, exactly? My thoughts? My hearing? My seeing? It doesn't make sense.

When it comes to the what, I think I mean the practice of continuously seeing, so your point below is correct. I still subtly see this as a state of mind.

Does what is seen disappear? Or do thoughts just come in and comment?
Does “this” go anywhere?
Or do thoughts simply continue commenting on whatever happens next or on previous thoughts?

No, it doesn't disappear anymore than the world disappears because I close my eyes. It is purely thoughts commenting on other thoughts.

Do you need to hold on to being, because it can slip away? Or it can be taken away?
Even when thoughts appear, is there still seeing, still hearing, still sensation?
Has “this” actually stopped? Or is there experience happening and thoughts saying “I lost it”
Without trying to hold anything, Is there anything missing?

Yes, there is still seeing, hearing, and sensation, but the thoughts that arise are so strong and all-consuming that DE gets subsumed it's almost like thoughts become like a mask put on over it, if that makes sense. Without trying to hold anything, no there isn't anything missing. I have hearing, smelling, seeing, sensation, and thoughts always there. There is no mysterious component I need to get to direct experiencing.

Looking happens (thoughts about DE), thoughts about thoughts happen. Is this in your control?? It’s like any other habitual thought - the more repetition, the higher likelihood of appearing. It will happen when it happens.

But this seems to imply that there is a place to get to. Call it a loosening of conditioned thinking patterns, but either way, it is different from my current thinking patterns that produce the delusion I live in from moment to moment.

"got it, lost it," as untrue beliefs come up to be questioned.

I think one of the doubts that persists in my mind is whether or not I really "got it" when I think I see. Sometimes I think yes, because your questions lead me to conclusions that make conceptual sense, but I don't know if that understanding is truly my own, or yours.

To “deal” with this, question everything

Can you say more about this? Question in what way?

You may be thinking that this is not enough, that some experiences need to happen, that you should be happy and blissful all the time.

I can say for certain that I don't believe awakening bring happiness and bliss all the time,, so please don't worry about that. :)

what is here that wants THIS to be different (including the presence of doubtful thoughts)? Are those doubtful thoughts even yours

Upon looking, there is only a thought that wants this to be different. That is, there is no person or thing I can locate using DE that wants things to be different. There is only the thought "I want this to be different." And the doubts seem to be thoughts layered on top of that. Ahhhhh I see. When I look past these and sort of clear them away or let them go, there is nothing there except seeing, hearing, etc!

With appreciation,

Blanca

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca
Very good looking as usual!

thoughts are so strong they subsume DE, like a mask

Look carefully! Do thoughts actually cover anything? Or are they just more appearances?
Even when thoughts are “loud”, is there still seeing, still hearing, still sensation?
Has anything actually been covered? Or is there experience happening plus thoughts claiming “this is obscured”

I don’t know if I really got it

What would “getting it” be? Who would get it?
Is that anything more than another thought? Did you think that thought? Does it point to anything real?
And this:

is this understanding mine or yours?

Is there a “mine” to own understanding?
Or are there just thoughts appearing, regardless of ownership?
Anyway… This is not about understanding at all. It’s only about looking. My questions are not leading you to the correct answers, they are pointers where exactly to look. It’s not a test that you can fail if you give the wrong answer - all answers are wrong. Nothing thought talks about is right (no meaning in THIS without “things”- it’s always just THIS). What’s important to see is that thoughts are just approximations, pointers. They are like fingers pointing to the moon, but the finger never is or becomes the moon. This inquiry is about whether the finger points to existing stuff or imaginary stuff. So is there a self that exists in any form or shape? Can it be found, touched, smelled, …, separate from the colour, sensation, smell, … that are appearing right now?
Don’t remember from yesterday or what you’ve seen so far! Have a fresh look, right now!

To “deal” with this, question everything

Can you say more about this? Question in what way?

Not intellectually. Each time a thought appears, like “this isn’t enough”, "is this my understanding", “I lost it”, “I didn’t get it”, just check:
Is it anything more than a thought?
Does it point to something real?
That’s it.
Without clearing anything away, without letting anything go, is there anything here that is not simply seeing, hearing, sensation, thought happening?
There is no fixing. No sustaining. No getting. Just this.
Love
Rali

[Blanca]

Hi Rali - Thank you! My responses below:

Do thoughts actually cover anything? Or are they just more appearances?
Even when thoughts are “loud”, is there still seeing, still hearing, still sensation?
Has anything actually been covered? Or is there experience happening plus thoughts claiming “this is obscured”

I see what you're saying... that thoughts aren't obscuring insight or other state of being. And that the idea that a thought obscures is just itself another thought. I think I mostly agree though sometimes are our thoughts are so potent that they can alter or obscure our other senses. I suspect that might even include looking.

What would “getting it” be? Who would get it?
Is that anything more than another thought? Did you think that thought? Does it point to anything real?

I actually don't quite know what "getting it" would be. Perhaps that perceptual shift. I think about it in the way this video points to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGQmdoK_ZfY. There is something I'm not seeing unless I literally stop doing everything else to look. And like the video, I assume that once I see it, I won't be able to unsee it. I recognize that is another thought, but it's a persistent one.

Is there a “mine” to own understanding?
Or are there just thoughts appearing, regardless of ownership?

Perhaps what I meant that when you ask questions, I am able to understand what you're saying conceptually, and that it may inform what I "see" when I look.

So is there a self that exists in any form or shape? Can it be found, touched, smelled, …, separate from the colour, sensation, smell, … that are appearing right now?

When I look again today my old way of thinking reasserts itself to say "Yes of course there is a self!" But it's a thought. I think perhaps I'm too tired to look today?

Is it anything more than a thought?
Does it point to something real?

This is a good rule of thumb that I will do my best to practice with these kinds of second and third type thoughts.

I will say that in the past few days I've noticed a bit less chatter in my brain. It doesn't feel profoundly different, it doesn't last long, and it feels not so much like thoughts have stopped, but that they're wisps that have less substance and seem almost fragmented and disappear before fully coming into consciousness. Most of the time I'm normal, but it is the first time ever I've had this experience, however briefly, so that is kind of neat. :)

B

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca,
Good. Now let’s stay very simple.

sometimes thoughts are so potent they obscure other senses

So look directly!
When a thought appears, is seeing still happening? Is hearing still happening? Is sensation still happening?
Check, don’t think. Do thoughts actually block anything?
Or are they just more appearances, happening alongside everything else?

there is something I’m not seeing unless I stop everything to look

Is anything hidden? Is there something outside of seeing, hearing, feeling, thinking, …, that needs to be found?
Or is the idea that “something is missing” just another thought?

once I see it, I won’t be able to unsee it

That’s an expectation. Look right now!
Is there a self? Can you find it anywhere?
That’s it. No permanence required. No special state required.

my old way of thinking says of course there is a self

Good. Now check… does that thought point to anything real or is it just another thought appearing?
You don’t need to be in a special state to look.
Even tiredness, is it anything more than sensation + thought?
Can tiredness prevent seeing?
Or is that also just a thought?

Perhaps what I meant that when you ask questions, I am able to understand what you're saying conceptually, and that it may inform what I "see" when I look.

Look carefully at the first part: “I understand”
When that thought appears, what is doing the understanding? Can you find it?
Is there an “understander” somewhere? Where is it? What is it made of?
Or are there simply thoughts appearing - one thought doing the "interpretation" of colour (black “text” on a “white” page), and another thought saying “I understand” with nothing behind it?
Check this directly… A thought arises that seems clear. Then another thought says “I understand this”. Is that second thought doing anything? Or just commenting?
Does understanding happen…or is there someone doing it? Find the one who understands—if it’s there.
Now notice… A thought appears that says “I understand this”. Does that thought change what is seen? Or is it just another appearance?
Does understanding produce seeing?
Or does seeing happen regardless of any understanding?
Try this… Look at something simple. Before any words, before any interpretation, is it already seen?
Does conceptual understanding add anything to that?
When you “look”, are you using thought to figure something out?
Or simply noticing what is already here?
Conceptual understanding is just more thought about thought (secondary thoughts). Looking is prior to that.
Without using any concepts at all…, Is anything missing from what is already here?
Keep it there. No thinking. Just looking.
Without trying to change anything…, is there a separate self here? Anywhere?
Look and report only what is actually found.
Love
Rali

[Blanca]

Hi Rali -

When a thought appears, is seeing still happening? Is hearing still happening? Is sensation still happening?
Check, don’t think. Do thoughts actually block anything?
Or are they just more appearances, happening alongside everything else?

Yes, hearing and seeing and sensation still happen. It's more like my attention (peripheral or direct) on them can be amplified or dimmed based on thoughts. For example, I am very focused on typing this response, so I don't really register anything my other senses are picking up. I'm not sure that is relevant to the act of looking, though.

Is anything hidden? Is there something outside of seeing, hearing, feeling, thinking, …, that needs to be found?
Or is the idea that “something is missing” just another thought?

It's definitely another thought, but I don't think it's pointing to something inaccurate. When I first watched that video, I definitely did NOT see the gorilla. But the gorilla was definitely there. This feels like I'm potentially missing the gorilla again. :)

That’s an expectation. Look right now!
Is there a self? Can you find it anywhere?

No, I cannot find it. I can only find thoughts, sensations, etc.

Good. Now check… does that thought point to anything real or is it just another thought appearing?
You don’t need to be in a special state to look.
Even tiredness, is it anything more than sensation + thought?
Can tiredness prevent seeing?
Or is that also just a thought?

No, it doesn't point to anything real. And tiredness has no bearing on seeing. Though[ tiredness can prevent one from looking.

When that thought appears, what is doing the understanding? Can you find it?
Is there an “understander” somewhere? Where is it? What is it made of?
Or are there simply thoughts appearing - one thought doing the "interpretation" of colour (black “text” on a “white” page), and another thought saying “I understand” with nothing behind it?

This was an interesting one. Using DE, I cannot find "understanding" as anything other than a thought. But you mention "interpretation." When I look for that, I don't find it either. What is the distinction, other than one is a conclusion I came to and the other is an act I'm doing? Wait, I think I see what you're saying here.... Just took me a minute to get there.

A thought arises that seems clear. Then another thought says “I understand this”. Is that second thought doing anything? Or just commenting?
Does understanding happen…or is there someone doing it? Find the one who understands—if it’s there.

I guess I don't really experience "understanding" as a conscious thought that says "I understand." It's more of a feeling. One that is either confirmed or not when I try to retrieve the information, explain it to someone, or apply it. Though who or what is doing the understanding, I'm not at all sure. When I look, I don't find anything.

A thought appears that says “I understand this”. Does that thought change what is seen? Or is it just another appearance?
Does understanding produce seeing?
Or does seeing happen regardless of any understanding?

Seeing happens, but the understanding is more about the concepts that underlie the act of looking (i.e. the very ideas that are expressed in enlightenment quotes or anything else).

Before any words, before any interpretation, is it already seen?
Does conceptual understanding add anything to that?
When you “look”, are you using thought to figure something out?
Or simply noticing what is already here?

I see what you're saying here. I just tried it with a few objects and there were no immediate labels or concepts that immediately arise. I certainly don't need concepts to see and know what something is. In terms of whether I use thought to figure something out when I look? No, though the thought "look" is present.

Without using any concepts at all…, Is anything missing from what is already here?
Keep it there. No thinking. Just looking.
Without trying to change anything…, is there a separate self here? Anywhere?

No, there isn't anything missing. There is seeing and hearing and sensation and thought. There isn't a requirement for a "self" or entity for these things to happen. And when I look, I don't see a self at all.

B