Grateful For Help Seeing

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warissem
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby warissem » Thu May 02, 2024 8:38 am

Good morning

You have done good observations.
This is not well defined either. There is a bit of pressure, but it makes a blurry boundary.
Look again : are there two sensations : one of a chair another of a body?
Is there a feeler of sensations?

Waiting for further insights.

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Polyphemus
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby Polyphemus » Thu May 02, 2024 4:35 pm

Dear Warissem,

Continuing on with the exercise/questions:
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
The label refers to a body in the medical sense, with all its organs, muscle, skeleton, etc.
The actual experience of the body is just whatever sensations are there at the moment: pressure from chair and floor, a breeze, aches or pains, energy. Sometimes there isn't much to be felt at all.
Look again : are there two sensations : one of a chair another of a body?
No, the chair and body seem to be the same sensation, not two.
Is there a feeler of sensations?
Without using thought, there is no "feeler", the feeling is just happening in the experience of the moment.

Thanks,
Marty

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warissem
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby warissem » Thu May 02, 2024 7:20 pm

Hi Marty

Here is a practice which is of good help. I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:-

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.

Best for you

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Polyphemus
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby Polyphemus » Fri May 03, 2024 11:29 pm

Dear Warissem,
An interesting exercise. Definitely simplifies and clarifies the present moment when doing it.
I find that labeling thoughts is much more difficult because thoughts tend to "absorb me" so much that I'm rarely able to be aware of them.
Is this exercise intended to be a demonstration, or something that is done regularly?
Thanks,
Marty

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warissem
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby warissem » Sat May 04, 2024 7:34 am

Good morning

Here is an exercise which gives clarity about labels.

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Is the colour red ‘experienced’, or is the colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Waiting for your insights

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Polyphemus
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby Polyphemus » Sat May 04, 2024 4:19 pm

Dear Warissem,

Took a while to realize that the colour of the type was part of the exercise! It seemed pink rather than red. Maybe that's part of the exercise?
When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?
The actual experience is seeing pink/red.
Is the colour red ‘experienced’, or is the colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?
Pink/red is experienced. There is no visual experience of the colour green.
Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?
The label "Green" does not have a one-to-one correspondence with reality. It suggest a different colour than what is actually being seen in experience.
Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?
"Green" is just a label overlaying the experience.
If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?
the visual experience of the redness is not affected in any way by using different labels. The mental reaction experience could be affected.
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?
No, reality is not affected by the labels whatsoever.

Thanks,
Marty

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warissem
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby warissem » Sat May 04, 2024 7:13 pm

Good afternoon

There is an exercise about control.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Waiting for your insights

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Polyphemus
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby Polyphemus » Mon May 06, 2024 2:32 pm

Dear Warissem,
How is the movement controlled?
The movement seems to happen on its own.
Does a thought control it?
Thought does not seem to be controlling it.
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
No
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
There does not seem to be any point where thought decides to do it and makes it happen.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
The choice seemed to happen automatically, without thought.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
Nothing can be found that is choosing when to turn the palm. It's just happening.

Thanks,
Marty

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warissem
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby warissem » Mon May 06, 2024 3:15 pm

Hi Marty

When "seem" is used, it understand that there is a doubt. You have to answer with 100% certainty about what is noticed. I invite you to play again with the exercise "palm down, palm up" till you see that there is no controller, no chooser, no decision maker.

Best for you

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Polyphemus
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby Polyphemus » Tue May 07, 2024 3:50 pm

Dear Warissem,

This "seems" to be part of the "problem for me" - a slight doubt based on the idea that maybe there is some deeper unseen level of thought or an entity/soul that might be controlling this.

Doing the exercise again, sure no controller can be seen, but how do I know for sure there's not a "hidden controller"?

Thanks,
Marty

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warissem
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby warissem » Tue May 07, 2024 7:27 pm

Hi Marty
Doing the exercise again, sure no controller can be seen, but how do I know for sure there's not a "hidden controller"?
Seeing happens as direct experience not in thought. Is "a hidden controller" not another thought?

What arises as thoughts, feelings when you read this :
There is no you, no Marty, no separate self in any shape or form. It never was, it will never be.

Best for you

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Polyphemus
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby Polyphemus » Wed May 08, 2024 4:43 pm

Dear Warissem,
Seeing happens as direct experience not in thought. Is "a hidden controller" not another thought?
It's true, "a hidden controller" is just another thought.
What arises as thoughts, feelings when you read this :
There is no you, no Marty, no separate self in any shape or form. It never was, it will never be.
I have seen this phrase many times in reading the LU and GG books, so I'm a bit used to it, and it doesn't generate much in the way of thoughts or feelings any more. It is something that I can agree with mentally.
At the same time, seeing "my" name there in the statement did give a bit of a shock. It was a very brief feeling that is hard to describe. Maybe a flash of concern or fear.

Thanks,
Marty

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warissem
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby warissem » Wed May 08, 2024 7:44 pm

Hi Marty
At the same time, seeing "my" name there in the statement did give a bit of a shock. It was a very brief feeling that is hard to describe. Maybe a flash of concern or fear.
When you walk in the street or wherever, you meet people. When you see or meet a "person" you don't know, there is only a body which is seen. But when you see a person you know, you see the body, the name and all the stories about him.
Do you see clearly the difference between what is here now and the stories about it?
Do you see that the stories are not put as a charge on the back of a body or whatever object?
Do you see that Marty is a story?
Do you see without a doubt that there is no separate self in charge of life, driving the body?
Do you see that there is only life flowing as the body ?

Ponder on the questions and give answers to each question separately.

Best for you

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Polyphemus
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby Polyphemus » Thu May 09, 2024 5:48 pm

Dear Warissem,
Do you see clearly the difference between what is here now and the stories about it?
Yes, this is seen clearly.
Do you see that the stories are not put as a charge on the back of a body or whatever object?
Yes, stories are not actually attached to anything. This only happens in minds.
Do you see that Marty is a story?
Yes, this is seen sometimes, but not all the time. There are lots of time when Marty seems real.
Do you see without a doubt that there is no separate self in charge of life, driving the body?
Yes, this is seen without a doubt when looked at directly, but at other times it is not seen, when distracted by the illusions.
Do you see that there is only life flowing as the body ?
Yes, this is seen when looked at directly, but at other times it is not seen, when distracted by the illusions.

Thanks,
Marty

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warissem
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Re: Grateful For Help Seeing

Postby warissem » Thu May 09, 2024 6:56 pm

Hi Marty
Yes, this is seen when looked at directly, but at other times it is not seen, when distracted by the illusions.
Does it mean that there is a separate self when distracted by the illusions?
What do you mean by illusions ?

Are you aware of these words on the screen?
Is there still seeking?
If so what is missing?

Waiting for your insights.


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