Grateful For Help Seeing

[Polyphemus]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
This is seeing that the stories running in our heads are fictional, and based on an illusion of being separate from everyone and everything. This is seeing that everything is happening on its own.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for help in seeing past the illusions of self. I can see some of it, but it's likely just the tip of the iceberg. Also looking to see Life as it truly is, and no longer wasting so much time and energy on the ego's concerns.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope that a guide can help find the blindspots that are blocking the full seeing here, or if not finding blindspots, maybe correcting any false assumptions or misguided approaches that I have towards this.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I am 51, and have been spiritually seeking for about 10 years, mainly from a Christian Mysticism approach, as taught by a Christian Mystic known as Brother Dominick. This has involved cultivating a seeing through the illusions with "no-self" meditations, which I'm not very good at. In the last few months I have read "Liberation Unleashed" and "Gateless Gatekeepers", and have started re-reading them. I had hoped reading them might be enough. While there has been some progress in seeing how this body is doing its own thing, it seems I'm still missing something.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[warissem]

Hi

I am glad to walk a bit with you to help you see through the illusion of a separate self.

There are some rules to agree with, before starting our dialog :

Read the disclaimer text here
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books, videos about this investigation.

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Best wishes

Warissem

[Polyphemus]

Dear Warissem,

Thanks so much for your kindness and generosity in helping me!
My real name is Marty.
I have read and agree to the disclaimer and what LU is not, and I will make this my main focus (as far as humanly possible).

Re your questions:

How will life change?

I hope that life will be less focused on the selfish concerns of the ego and what's going on in the head, and instead focused on what is really happening in every present moment.

How will you change?

I hope to be less in my head, less volatile, and more present.

What will be different?

I hope that I will be able to see the ego for what it really is, rather than getting blindly sucked into its illusions.

What is missing?

Seeing life correctly is missing.

Thanks,
Marty

[warissem]

Hi Marty

Your expectations are quite realistic.

What is coming up as sensations, thoughts, ... when you read this :
There is no separate self, no you in any shape or form, it never was, it will never be.

Ponder on this and elaborate on your answer.

Best for you

[Polyphemus]

Dear Warissem,

What is coming up as sensations, thoughts, ... when you read this :
There is no separate self, no you in any shape or form, it never was, it will never be.
Ponder on this and elaborate on your answer.

This statement is something that I can believe in my mind and am very excited about, but there are little flashes of doubt sometimes, like "are you really sure there isn't some kind of self hiding deep inside?" In the recent past, I have temporarily satisfied my doubts by reading parts of the LU and GG books, but believing in a separate self is still going on a lot of the time.

The idea "there is no separate self" also seems to produce a blissful feeling, which I have been experiencing off and on for the last few years.

There also seems to be a bit of a distraction response to the idea. Other thoughts come along quickly. Recently I seem a lot more tempted by social media. I think there may be some (or maybe a lot of) subconscious fear going on over the idea of there being no self. It has manifested occasionally in terrifying dreams over the last few years. The fear is not felt consciously right now though.

Thanks,
Marty

[warissem]

Good evening

There also seems to be a bit of a distraction response to the idea. Other thoughts come along quickly. Recently I seem a lot more tempted by social media. I think there may be some (or maybe a lot of) subconscious fear going on over the idea of there being no self. It has manifested occasionally in terrifying dreams over the last few years. The fear is not felt consciously right now though.

There is no reason for fear because there never was a separate self in the first place.

Here in this forum, we are not inviting you to believe but you have to see that there is no separate self.

Right now, in this very moment, is there a separate self without thinking about it?

Use the five senses and LOOK : is there a separate self, a you in the visual field ?
Is it expressing as a sound, a sensation, a smell or a taste?

Waiting for your insights

[Polyphemus]

Here in this forum, we are not inviting you to believe but you have to see that there is no separate self.
Right now, in this very moment, is there a separate self without thinking about it?
Use the five senses and LOOK : is there a separate self, a you in the visual field ?
Is it expressing as a sound, a sensation, a smell or a taste?

Good Evening,

When attention is brought to looking at the present moment, no separate self is seen. In the moment it can be seen that everything is happening and unfolding on its own, and it is wonderful. But, this seeing is not happening most of the time, only in the moments when attention is brought to it.

Thanks.

[warissem]

Hi Marty

When attention is brought to looking at the present moment, no separate self is seen. In the moment it can be seen that everything is happening and unfolding on its own, and it is wonderful.

Yes, wonderful.

But, this seeing is not happening most of the time, only in the moments when attention is brought to it.

What is happening most of the time outside of this seeing?
Is attention different from this seeing?

Where are you seeing from?

PS : please, answer to each question separately.

Best for you

[Polyphemus]

Good morning Warissem,

What is happening most of the time outside of this seeing?

It seems that attention is mainly focused on the mind chatter.

Is attention different from this seeing?

It seems that attention is a focusing of awareness, and it is the same as seeing.

Where are you seeing from?

It feels like the seeing is coming from the head, especially when focused on thoughts, but when focused more broadly on sights and sounds outside the body, the seeing seems to be from out there too. Strange.

Thanks,
Marty

[warissem]

Hi Marty

It seems that attention is mainly focused on the mind chatter.

Yes, even in this case, seeing (being aware) is happening/ I mean there is seeing of thoughts.

It seems that attention is a focusing of awareness, and it is the same as seeing.

Yes great to see this.

It feels like the seeing is coming from the head, especially when focused on thoughts, but when focused more broadly on sights and sounds outside the body, the seeing seems to be from out there too. Strange.

It is not strange, it is the experience right here right now. No more to it.

I'll give exercises to be clearer about all this staff and to deepen the seeing.

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Best for you

[Polyphemus]

Dear Warissem,

Where are they coming from and going to?

Thought seems to appear in the head, coming from nowhere and going to nowhere.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Nothing was done to make any thoughts appear.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No, it seems that once a thought has started, there is no changing it.

Can you predict your next thought?

No, predicting thoughts in advance seems impossible.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No, there is no way of selecting from a range of thoughts.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No, there is no stopping any kind of thought once it has started

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No, not in this exercise when you are just allowing thoughts to happen, and not in normal life (unless you are repeating a mantra or something in your head).

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No, not once it has started to appear.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

There doesn't seem to be an organized sequence. Thoughts seem to be mostly commentary on what is happening, and then sometimes tangents branching out from those thoughts.

Thanks,
Marty

[warissem]

Hi Marty

Good observation of thoughts but there is a comment here :

Thought seems to appear in the head, coming from nowhere and going to nowhere.

Yes, as it is seen thoughts come from nowhere and go to nowhere. But do they appear in the head?

Let’s examine the solidity of the head. Don't go to thoughts and mental images when doing this exercise.

Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?

Best for you

[Polyphemus]

Dear Warissem,

Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?

Tried the exercise, and without thoughts there is just the pressure points or feeling of touch.

Thanks,
Marty

[warissem]

Good evening

Here is an investigation of the body. I invite you to do it whenever you have time, during leisure time.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Best for you

[Polyphemus]

Dear Warissem,

Can it be known how tall the body is?

Without using thoughts or eyes open, there is no sense of how tall the body is.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

There is no sense of this either.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

There is only a very faint feeling of a form, but not well defined at all.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

It doesn't feel like there's much of a boundary. It is hard to feel where clothing begins and body stops.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

This is not well defined either. There is a bit of pressure, but it makes a blurry boundary.

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

There is no clear feeling of an inside or outside of the body.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

As you suggested, I would like to spend some more time investigating this last question, so I will answer it later.

Thanks,
Marty