I have a pain in my face with Spirituality, I’m going home.

[Truthfull]

....Under this feeling is also shame and anger.

[Elad]

OKAY to 1-3? Moving forward are you willing to commit to such dedication, respect and precision for the questions?

Answer
Yes, I will commit to points 1,2,3.

Question
Weather you have connected to such a spirit here so far or not, are you up for doing it from here?

Answer
Yes, I am up for it.

Ok great, I am aiming for both of us giving it our very best then.

Question
1) Rephrase: Do you believe you are/have a self? Where are you at in terms of seeing through the belief in self?

Answer
Yes, I believe I have a self. I am answering the question not you. I have bills to pay, I have work to go to. I have children to rase. I am. Now when I look for the I, I can't find a solid thing out their. But the belief has not dropped. I notice that thoughts make up a big part of the I sense.

Okay, and yes, conventionally designated Dennis and his conventionally designated responsibilities are certainly not in question here. So what is even worth questioning?

1) In what sense is the self/I even worth questioning? What kind of belief in self feels worth questioning to you?

It will help this exploration if you really clarify that. As long as we question something that doesn't really feel meaningful to question for you, this might make the inquiry less intuitive and natural.

I also comes out strong when I'm triggered. This is why I am working on fetter 4/5 Reactivity. Feeling the squirmy feelings and staying in the gap. I think this is helping but its early days. Your earlier messages triggered me and the belief is: Its unfair to be held to account. I'm now just sitting with the feelings and the statement with outgoing into future.

Sounds like valuable to work on reactivity this way.

For those of us who grew up with complex and difficult and unhappy relationships with our fathers, where it was hard to trust and hard to bond and hard to work with and through the dynamics of healthy masculinity, from competition to cooperation, this stuff very easily come up with people we go to for guidence. Especially if they directly or indirectly challenge or call out on or defiance, negativity, entitlement, relationship (-self-)sabotage, underlying fear and insecurity, etc. It takes one to know one, Dennis. At the same time people as aware as you and me can intuit, that this is the kind of stuff we need to be able to be part of and recieve, and then be able to not repel and then feel all there is to be felt in truth (including anger and shame and vulnerability and love and longing and grief and much more..), in order to ease in to the dignity, connectednes and grace that we have potential for.

When you in a sense allow me to have the guide role for now, it is only natural stuff related to this will come up, especially when I challenge or direct you. We aim to see with clarity and care what happens in this, without buying into projections and acting out on them, maintaining the respectful and constructive relating with eyes on the goal.

Last thing for now, I say "the ROLE of guide" on purpose, accentuating that this just an agreement for what roles we are agreeing to take for now (and that can be broken in any moment where one of us don't want it anymore), not about that I am ultimately one way and you are ultimately another, but about that if we can each do our role our very best here, of guide and guidee, the result might be liberating and awakening.

[Elad]

Also, practice some more "noticing the gap between thoughts". Do that during the day several times, when it fits the flow. And an easygoing little curiosity alongside it, from time to time, how it plays into the sense of self.

[Truthfull]

Question

In what sense is the self/I even worth questioning? What kind of belief in self feels worth questioning to you?

Answer

I don't feel like questioning the I sense. That's my feeling. I'm sick of it. If I think about what makes it work questioning, its suffering, negative thoughts, blocked emotions. It feel like a false sense of self keeps these stuck or reactive. I want to question the I so I can be free of my conditioning. My limits, my worries, my anxiety, etc. As a simple example, I forget peoples names and it makes work awkward. I meet people and I cant say "Hi John". It's Ehh, what's his name, shit. My mind is blank. So I just say Hi and think it would be much better to say Hi John or morning John. People like to hear their name. It helps with bounding and connecting, etc, etc. I am broken and it's bee since I was a kid. This makes me want to look at the I to see if its holding this in place as a belief and a comment on my limits. When you piss in the clean water, no amount of adding sugar removes the piss.
I will keep doing the "Reaction, Clear I statement, Gap, Feelings/Thoughts/Emotions Practice.

Best
Denis

[Elad]

Dennis, reading your last message, my strong sense is that a focused inquiry into the nature and existence of self is not for you for now. You don’t want it. And equally important maybe more importenty, both what you say and how you say it gives me a sense that a holistic approach, that includes psychological work, is what will benefit you now.


So here are the options I am op for:


- We can schedule live sessions and work together. I am a psychologist and this is my livelihood and for pay. If you want to look more into that, write me at eladexplore1111@gmail.com

- weather you chose to do that or not I recommend you to read the book "What I Couldn't Tell My Therapist" by Michelle May. It includes descriptions of certain dynamics I think will be helpful to you, and that are not described by most nondual teachers nor by the majority of therapists.

- I think it is probably very good you are at Vinces meetings. Lots of what he does and how he is supports psychological healing.

- You and I can work on LU again if/when (a) your whole perspective genuinely transforms and is less dominated by devaluing/black painful attitudes, first and foremost to yourself, which I think calls for understanding the dynamics that unconsciously drive that, and (b) you have a genuine curiosity and availability to explore the fundamental nature and existence of self, not in order to eliviate psychological pain and problems, but because it interests you in itself.

- If you disagree with my attitude to LU work, I can ask for another guide for you at the guide central.

[Truthfull]

Hi Elad,

I’m disappointed to hear you’re not up for guiding me anymore. Particularly after we just spend the last few posts agreeing the approach going forward.

Saying “I just don’t want it” is not true and a projection.

I think there is a communications issue and yes maybe we are not suited. These things happen. Would you be open to the possibility that I have no Interest in questioning the I because it’s not needed now. I found it useful to re read our first few posts on page 1.

I think a connection and good communication is important for this process, especially in this limited communication format.

Thanks for your time to date. 👍🏼.

Denis

[Truthfull]

Hi Elad,

I have asked Marius to take over guiding me. He has agreed. I assume there is a handover procedure that will now happen.

Thanks again for your time.
Denis

[Elad]

Hi Elad,

I have asked Marius to take over guiding me. He has agreed. I assume there is a handover procedure that will now happen.

Thanks again for your time.
Denis

All right. Best of luck to you.

[Elad]

Adding: I don't disagree with what you write about yourself in the last messages. For me to continue working with you with these dynamics, at this time, it would have felt appropriate to do in live holistic sessions, working also with all the emotional and relational dynamics, and naturally allow the process to return to direct inquiry into nature of self (what LU is aimed at) when/if it became natural. And maybe that work would be what would do the "last push" also in terms of seeing through self, "indirectly". Sounds like you and Marius have developed a connection through live meetings, that is more fluid like that, and that the way you both feel up for interacting, is a better fit for you now. Again, best of luck.

[Sonofnature]

Hey Denis!

Here comes what used to be called the final questions, but has later been renamed to the checkpoint questions, as there is no finality to this.

Take your time with these. There is no hurry. The invitation is to respond to each question from your direct experience and stay away from intellectualizing.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? Was there a moment of shift with a distinct before and after?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Consider and describe each if these separately.

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

8) Anything to add?

Warmly,
Marius

[Truthfull]

Hey Denis!

Here comes what used to be called the final questions, but has later been renamed to the checkpoint questions, as there is no finality to this.


Take your time with these. There is no hurry. The invitation is to respond to each question from your direct experience and stay away from intellectualizing.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No, not in direct experience. One can seem to exist if thoughts are let run wild. No I can be found.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
It is thoughts believed. It is a resistance to now, which is a subtle thought. It’s a seeming controller, planner, reflector…all more thoughts. It’s a belief in an I. This first belief (I). A collection of unchallenged beliefs that operate below conscious awareness as the foundation for more mundane thoughts. It’s an innocent mistake we all must make. Like holding your breath so we can breathe again. The more I look for it the less I find. It does not exist…. just silence, just this.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels relieving, a relief. Nothing special, a coming home. Rest. It’s like id been giving my power to an abusive friend, who knocks every day. Now I see the trap and answer less and less. I see the mistake more. Vigilance is required.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? Was there a moment of shift with a distinct before and after?
No, nothing pushed me over. When I (Looking) look, I (Looking) see clarity. Nothing can get in the way. It’s not always noticed (it does the noticing), but as you return to it, it gets brighter and it leaves no room for anything else, it folds in on itself endlessly.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Consider and describe each of these separately.
Decision, is a thought. “I’ll have the chocolate ice-cream” The sentence comes out, but no one (I) is saying it. Its just said. I like Chocolate the best is another thought. It’s just appears, I don’t know why, its conditioning. There is no decision maker.
Intention is a thought, “I’ll go to bed early tonight”. It’ a thought. Going to ben early or late will just happen. If I go to be late, other thoughts will hang of the first thought, “I was not tires”, I wanted to see a movie”. All thoughts while life is happening all by itself.
Free Will, is a thought. I can make a choice. I will get up at 7am tomorrow. Then I get up at 8am and I think, I was tyred, I don’t want to get up, etc, this covers over the truth that there is no free will.
Control, I have control, “I will get fit, lose wright”. Then life happens and if weight is not lost, more thoughts to justify the first control thought. If there is fewer controlling thoughts, then a response can naturally happen in any situation.


6) What makes things happen? How does it work?
I do not know. I have no clue. It’s a crushing question.

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
From here the word means nothing. Everything responds to everything. It’s a concept. It’s a sound in this. There is no responsibility.

8) Anything to add?
Answering from silence takes courage. It requires an admission of the facts. Take of the mask and notice you have been playing a role. It’s nothing special or maybe it’s a special nothing.
From here the thought “Am I Awake” is seen as a thought. I’ll stay quiet and let this be.

Warmly,
Marius

[Sonofnature]

Hey Denis!

The other guides have reviewed your responses and have no further questions.

Soon you will receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information that might be of interest to you. Your username will change from green to blue and this thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

As you already know, there is no finality to this. It is more like the beginning of cleaning up all sorts of old beliefs and habitual patterns and getting real friendly with all emotions. ☺️

If you have any questions or any hiccups, you are of course very welcome to reach out.

It was a pleasure exploring with you. 🙏🏼

Warmly,
Marius