Seeking more than an intellectual understanding

[solstice]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding of this is that the self described in my thoughts using "me" and "I" does not really exist. There is no persistent self which is in control. The self described in these thoughts is itself another thought/s.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for help realising the true nature of self. I feel as though I have a reasonable intellectual understanding (open to learning more!), however the realisation that people describe has not occurred. I am hoping with the help of someone else I will be able to turn my intellectual understanding into lived experience.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Someone to give me the push in the right direction to achieve lived experience of the idea of no self. I am open to harsh examination of any preconceived beliefs that I have. I expect to be guided to look at thoughts/feelings/beliefs/assumptions that I have not previously ever looked at.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have had an on again off again meditation practice for the last couple of years. At my most disciplined I was sitting for two one hour sessions a day. I have also experimented with psychedelics on a number of occasions. I have experienced temporary states of no self from both of these things.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[jrm72]

Hello solstice,

My name is James and I can be your guide.

This better in a Q&A style rather than a discussion, because a discussion is more intellectualising, and what is needed is LOOKING. Also best if you post every day. If you know you can’t do this, tell me and a more suitable guide will find you.


Have you read the info at these two links? (please confirm) -

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041



There is no one judging answers here, so be as honest as possible in your answers and inquiry.

This exploration is based on direct experience (DE) - smell, taste, sound, physical sensation and observed thoughts. Analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
All other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on can be distractions. Put your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is.

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written. Answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Using the quote function makes things clearer as the thread progresses.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT." -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ

I have had no experience with psychodelics, so if that's the route you want to take, a guide with experience in that area would be far better.



What would you like for me to call you?

Loved your 11 out of 10 answer, how's that working out?

What do you think is the reason that you haven't woken up yet?


❤️🖖

[solstice]

Hi James,

Nice to meet you and thanks for your time :)

Have you read the info at these two links? (please confirm) -

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Yes I have read this info.

All other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on can be distractions. Put your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is.

This makes sense, I will do as you say.

What would you like for me to call you?

solstice is fine thanks

Loved your 11 out of 10 answer, how's that working out?

I have been trying to question every belief that I find myself becoming aware of, however this can be somewhat hard alone, I hope this is where my answering your questions will help!

What do you think is the reason that you haven't woken up yet?

That is a hard one, my whole life I have been described as a very black and white logical thinker, which has worked out well at times and not so well at others as you can imagine. Because of this I probably have a strong attachment to thought and often find myself stuck in my head. I think perhaps I am scared not only of what it will be like but also realising what I have missed out on, so regret for not realising sooner if that makes sense?

[jrm72]

Morning Solstice,

Nice to meet you too.

I have been trying to question every belief that I find myself becoming aware of, however this can be somewhat hard alone, I hope this is where my answering your questions will help

Not only hard alone, hard in any way, instead of questioning we'll look.



What comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.


❤️🖖

[jrm72]

PS: Reading your post again, one important thing -

This makes sense, I will do as you say.

Don't take what I say as true, always make sure anything I say works for you or is true for you.
All our paths are unique.

❤️🖖

[solstice]

What comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed

Relief and peace, but also some fear and sadness, also some confusion because in my current experience it doesn’t feel like this is true

Don't take what I say as true, always make sure anything I say works for you or is true for you.
All our paths are unique.

Definitely, as I said it makes sense to me. To get the most out of this I need to put aside any distractions so I can give my best to this endeavour!

[jrm72]

Hey Solstice,

it doesn’t feel like this is true

What is it you feel?


❤️🖖

[solstice]

What is it you feel?

I feel like a mind controlling a body. I feel seperate from everything, lonely.

[jrm72]

Evening Solstice,

There are two different things going on here -

I feel like a mind controlling a body.

I feel seperate from everything, lonely

Let's deal with the mind controlling the body first -


A pointer to look at "control. "

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?



❤️🖖

[solstice]

How is the movement controlled?

Scientifically I know there is an answer, but in direct experience the movement/the body seems to be in control of itself

Does a thought control it?

No thought is controlling it, it feels like something deeper is in control, but this deeper thing still feels like "me"

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No I can not find any solid controller other than the deeper feeling of being my body and my body is moving

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

There is no point at which a thought makes the decision. Thoughts sometimes try to preempt/guess when it is about to move but they do not decide to move it

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Nobody/nothing chose the hand. I am right handed and that was the hand I used which makes sense it would be the default hand. It is possible to use the left hand but it requires a slight effort if that makes sense?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Once again no individual, but still the feeling that I am my body and thus I am in control. I feel as though I could flip as frequently or infrequently as I like.

[jrm72]

Morning Solstice,

What's the difference between what you're direct experience (DE) revealed and what you thought/felt in that exercise?

❤️🖖

[jrm72]

you're=your

[solstice]

What's the difference between what you're direct experience (DE) revealed and what you thought/felt in that exercise?

My thoughts were mainly trying to guess when the hand would flip or from the thoughts perspective trying to control the hand. Feelings harder to ascertain? Maybe intrigue/interest in the outcome.

DE
Thought: thoughts about the experience as above
Vision: My/a hand flipping at seemingly random intervals
Sound: Ambient plus sound of sleeve moving when hand flipped
Touch: Feeling of air & sleeve against hand/arm
Taste: Negligible
Smell: Negligible

Does this answer the question?

[jrm72]

Evening Solstice,

So thoughts were guesses and I assume came after the action.
DE was actual.

So were thoughts in control of anything?

Was there any control,of the thoughts?

❤️🖖

[solstice]

So were thoughts in control of anything?

No the thoughts were not in control

Was there any control,of the thoughts?

There wasn’t although I do feel as though I can control my thoughts if I try. Is that just my thoughts echoing whatever the brain is processing? Like I can force my thoughts to repeat a word over & over, eventually they may drift off to different thoughts, but are they not controlled for that period?