Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

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drewr007
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Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby drewr007 » Wed May 15, 2019 8:18 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The self is not thought, body, sensations, perceptions, ideas, stories, future, past. The self is not separate, divided, unique, un connected, apart, different. The self has no agency, free will or ability to make decisions. The separate self is a toxic story most of us a trapped in.

What are you looking for at LU?
To stop suffering, gain insight, participate personally in the process i have read about. Focus on direct experience instead of ideas, concepts, stories, teaching and the like. Learn to welcome fear and the unknown.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To lose all my expectations of waking, enlightenment, no self, duality ect. Learn to embrace the fear the mind creates as it loses identification from the separate self into awareness. To learn how to stop seeking and start seeing.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Meditation, listening and reading teachings

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Thu May 16, 2019 1:11 pm

Hello

My name is Adil and I am a guide here,
If that's ok for you we can start your journey.

Message here when you are ready with your name please.

Sending much love

Adil.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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drewr007
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby drewr007 » Thu May 16, 2019 1:48 pm

Hi Adil,

My name is Neil and I'm ready to start the journey.

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Fri May 17, 2019 9:55 am

Hello Drew,
Before we start i would like to share some tips to make our
dialogue smooth and effective:

1. Please write as much as you can; I would advise you to
write at least once a day, in order to keep it fresh and buid a momentum.

2. Our main focus here is on seeing through the illusion of
what we call "I," "me," or "self." Please set aside all the teachings
you've learned from books, retreats, youtube, and so on, for the sake
of not bringing bias to what we'll do during our conversation.

3. Process will be mostly answering my questions, its best efficiant if you may answer them one
by one..Please be always 100% honest with your answers
Don't choose the "right." answer, from "what comes up" There's no one here to judge or critisise.
If you are stuck with any issue, we can always take a close look at it.

4-set aside all other spiritually related materials (books, videos etc.) so that you can completely focus on your own direct experience.

5-Here's a link that shows how to use the quote function: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ[/

6- I would suggest you read "What Liberation Unleashed is not" from this link http://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Fri May 17, 2019 9:58 am

Ok Neil,

Can you please talk a bit more about the expectations..

What do you think will happen ?

And after you answer this can you please tell me what comes when i say:

THERE IS NO YOU! YOU HAVE NEVER EXISTED!

Thank you sending love..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Sat May 18, 2019 3:28 pm

Hello Neil,
I would like to remind you that the key of this realisation is daily looking.
So please try to write at least 1 post a day.

Thank you

Sending love
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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drewr007
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby drewr007 » Sun May 19, 2019 3:41 am

What do you think will happen ?
I'm not sure what will happen. My desire to see the truth is an attempt to stop creating suffering for myself and others around me. I hope my relationship to suffering will change but I expect to experience some discomfort and suffering on the way to that destination. Kind of like a mountain climber feeling discomfort on the path up a mountain where the view from the summit has the potential to change preservatives on discomfort itself.

I expect myself to try seek, to try and reason and avoid direct inquiry in a effort to keep this topic in the realm of the mind where most of me feels more comfortable.
THERE IS NO YOU! YOU HAVE NEVER EXISTED!
I notice the capital letters. They represent a challenge to my belief in a separate self that I have held for most of my life. The conditioning and mind feel like they need to defend. Part of me wants to argue and say that the idea and experience of self is not the ego or what most people believe it is but at the same time no one else experiences life like the awareness inside my head/body does. This awareness can't be touched or found and is always changing but I feel it is a real thing. I think that if technology ever got good enough someone else could download my consciousness or awareness and feel what it's like to feel like me. I don't own this experience and I had no part in creating it but it remains a unique manifestation of something all the same.

Thank you for the guidance and I will do my best to try and look and respond daily.

Sending appreciation,
Neil

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Sun May 19, 2019 9:41 am

Thank you for your answers Neil,
Let's look,
My desire to see the truth is an attempt to stop creating suffering for myself and others around me. I hope my relationship to suffering will change but I expect to experience some discomfort and suffering on the way to that destination.

Suffering may of may not stop. We can never know this. Also we don't have any goal here like stopping suffering. But i can say that perceviement of suffering will change for sure.
The reason i ask this question is to free you from any kind of expectation and make you focus on our journey, one by one, question by question. Enjoy the ride ok ? There is no mountain top. All is here and now.
:)

Part of me wants to argue and say that the idea and experience of self is not the ego or what most people believe it is but at the same time no one else experiences life like the awareness inside my head/body does. This awareness can't be touched or found and is always changing but I feel it is a real thing. I think that if technology ever got good enough someone else could download my consciousness or awareness and feel what it's like to feel like me. I don't own this experience and I had no part in creating it but it remains a unique manifestation of something all the same.
Thank you for writing what comes Neil,

But as you will see, all these attempts to understand and describe "what is" creates more thoughts.

Here in liberation unleashed we will be using term "looking" and direct/actual experience often!
LOOKING is not done by thinking. It is plain looking.

The term ‘actual experience or direct experience is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ and noticing the thought stories about them...
so ‘looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now –

It is the raw experience of direct experiences colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value. not the content of thought.

The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

Ok ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Sun May 19, 2019 9:53 am

Let's look at actual experince now,

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's COLOR; a THOUGHT saying ‘apple’; and maybe a THOUGHT saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

But what is known for sure? COLOR is known and THOUGHTS are known.

Always keep in mind: Actual experience is SOUND, THOUGHT, COLOR, SMELL, TASTE, SENSATION.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? How real are they ?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

The content of thought is more thoughts. A thought is empty of content. Thought, in and of itself does not contain any actual experience.

Can you find an actual ‘fish’ in the word/thought/label ‘fish’? Can you find an actual “I” in the word/thought/label “I”?

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can.
This will take the attention from thought to simple looking..

Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities (which are all actual experience) into these categories like i did above please and bring me some more of you done.

Waiting to hear from you.

Sending much love

(Don't forget blue marked words are pointers from me for you look more and answer)
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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drewr007
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby drewr007 » Sun May 19, 2019 4:49 pm

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
"Apple" is not really here. I just see color and think thought.
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
There is no apple in my direct experience. I can taste, smell, see or touch an apple but those perceptions are not the word apple.
However, is an apple actually known?
No. I can't directly experience the word apple.
Can you find an actual ‘fish’ in the word/thought/label ‘fish’? Can you find an actual “I” in the word/thought/label “I”?
I can't find an actual fish. Just a mental picture an example of something I would call a fish.

I can't find an actual "I" in the word/thought/label "I". I'm looking outside and I'm trying to think, typing while I try to see but nothing is there. The words just write themselves. "I" is not writing this right now. I have no idea what is. Writing is just happening I guess. I feel a struggle inside myself like something doesn't want to let go. Whatever is typing is doing so by itself and something is trying to claim ownership of it.

Sending appreciation,
Neil

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Tue May 21, 2019 12:08 pm

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
"Apple" is not really here. I just see color and think thought.
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
There is no apple in my direct experience. I can taste, smell, see or touch an apple but those perceptions are not the word apple.
However, is an apple actually known?
No. I can't directly experience the word apple.
Can you find an actual ‘fish’ in the word/thought/label ‘fish’? Can you find an actual “I” in the word/thought/label “I”?
I can't find an actual fish. Just a mental picture an example of something I would call a fish.

I can't find an actual "I" in the word/thought/label "I". I'm looking outside and I'm trying to think, typing while I try to see but nothing is there. The words just write themselves. "I" is not writing this right now. I have no idea what is. Writing is just happening I guess. I feel a struggle inside myself like something doesn't want to let go. Whatever is typing is doing so by itself and something is trying to claim ownership of it.

Sending appreciation,
Neil

Very good looking Neal.
Sure apple can not be known and there is no actual "i" in the word thought "I" .
Writing is just happening I guess. Whatever is typing is doing so by itself and something is trying to claim ownership of it.
Yes writing is happening. Walking is happening. Drinkin eating happening. No doer just the free fall and flow.
I feel a struggle inside myself like something doesn't want to let go.
Look, what is that struggle ? Is it a sensation ? Or just a thought.
What happens if you let that struggling thought be.
You are not the thoughts.

Enlightenment is nothing more than seeing that self is an illusion. No angels, no magic wand erasing all your troubles, no people around you seeing a halo around your head and respecting you and all that, It is so simple.
When you really look and see that you are not there, just life living of its own accord, that's it.

But dear Neil still i am waiting for "breaking down to actual experience" exercise please.

Then we will be moving on..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Tue May 21, 2019 12:50 pm

After you make our actual experience exercise,
please read this wonderful article from dear Ilona,

http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/05/labels.html

and there is an exercise below that article please make that exercise and report to me how you felt.


Sending much love
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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drewr007
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby drewr007 » Wed May 22, 2019 1:13 am

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can.
This will take the attention from thought to simple looking..

Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.
Driving to appointment: Walking down the stairs, seeing a dog, petting the dog, sensation of his fur arising, walking to the car, feeling the shoes slip on to feet, stepping outside, smelling the air, feeling the wind on cheeks.

Hearing the car engine turn on, looking behind as the car backs up, thinking about the route, hearing the voice of the navigation, feeling anticipation, feeling the centrifugal pull as the car turns into the parking lot, seeing the brown bricks of the building, feeling the legs strain when walking up the steps, seeing the colors of the magazines in the office, hearing the doctor and patient speak softly through the door, thinking and wondering what they are talking about, staring down at the bright colors on the phone, feeling fingers scroll through the app, thinking about the decisions being made in the app, feeling the pen and it's movement as the form is filled out, hearing a voice greet the doctor.

I tried the exercise with several other activities today and found it helpful. I will continue to practice it with it more.
and there is an exercise below that article please make that exercise and report to me how you felt.
I'm sitting and wondering what to type. I can feel my fingers on the keyboard and I hear the sound that hey are making. I hear the wind outside and I'm wondering if the weather will be warmer tomorrow. I remember checking my e-mail and feeling glad that I didn't have to respond to a work e-mail. I feel my back strain to sit upright in the chair. I hear my stomach rumble and the sound that it makes. I check the time on my computer to see when the game will start. I take a deliberate breath in and try to relax.

Sitting and wondering what will be typed. Feeling fingers on the keyboard and hearing the sound they make. Hearing the wind outside and wondering about the weather arises. Thoughts of checked email and gratitude about it contents. Feeling strain in back and slowly moving upright. Hearing the noise of a stomach rumbling. Eyes moving towards the clock on the computer and thoughts about when the game will start. Sensations of a deliberate breath and feeling an effort to relax.
Look, what is that struggle ? Is it a sensation ? Or just a thought.
What happens if you let that struggling thought be.
You are not the thoughts.
The struggle feels like a sensation and a thought. If the sensation and thought are left alone they will pass like all sensations and thoughts.

Sending gratitude,
Neil

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Wed May 22, 2019 9:51 am

Thanks for the Reply Neil,

I'll help you to make more clear

Walking down the stairs: Color+Sensation+thought label(stairs)
seeing a dog: Color+thought label (dog)
walking to the car: sensation+thought label (car)
feeling the shoes slip on to feet, (sensation+thought label (slipping - feet)
smelling the air, smell+thought label (air)
feeling the wind on cheeks. (sensation+thought)

and goes on...

i'll be very happy if you can send me more break down examples like this..

Let's look more..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

Postby adilerten » Wed May 22, 2019 9:54 am

and there is an exercise below that article please make that exercise and report to me how you felt.
I'm sitting and wondering what to type. I can feel my fingers on the keyboard and I hear the sound that hey are making. I hear the wind outside and I'm wondering if the weather will be warmer tomorrow. I remember checking my e-mail and feeling glad that I didn't have to respond to a work e-mail. I feel my back strain to sit upright in the chair. I hear my stomach rumble and the sound that it makes. I check the time on my computer to see when the game will start. I take a deliberate breath in and try to relax.

Sitting and wondering what will be typed. Feeling fingers on the keyboard and hearing the sound they make. Hearing the wind outside and wondering about the weather arises. Thoughts of checked email and gratitude about it contents. Feeling strain in back and slowly moving upright. Hearing the noise of a stomach rumbling. Eyes moving towards the clock on the computer and thoughts about when the game will start. Sensations of a deliberate breath and feeling an effort to relax.
Thanks for reporting what goes on in detail Neil..

But i would like to hear also the results of writing exercise with the "i" and wihtout the" i on Ilona's article..
How was it felt writing with "i" and without "i".

Waiting to hear from you
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha


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