Guess it's time

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
noworries
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:09 am

Guess it's time

Postby noworries » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:17 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that life is just living itself, without any need or control from a separate self. That my sense of self is an illusion and that by seeing the illusion for what it is, 'I' will be able to see the stories in my mind for what they are.

What are you looking for at LU?

I'm looking for some guidance. Because I'm reading the material, and although I feel I'm making progress on real seeing - it's not coming natural for me. I do get glimpses here and there, and it does seem to make sense. I think that a personal guide can help me get on track and help me trough the gate with less friction. The last year or so for me has revolved around seeing the truth. It's like an mild obsession for me. And I feel like it's time to just break trough and be done with it. I want to get there so I can help others do the same.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

I think a more personalised approach like this can help me move along better. The general questions I come across don't seem to inspire me to see the truth. Also, the 'pressure' of dealing with a human being who wants to hear truthful answers from me might help me to get deeper faster. And for some reason it appears life guided me here, so here I am.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

I have been doing meditation for about five years, on and off. The last two years I've been more driven, and the last year I've been meditating daily for longer stretches. I've read a lot of books about meditation and consciousness and my highest interest has always been to realise the truth. First, I thought I had to meditate for hours to get there. But recently, I started questioning that belief. I read the Jed McKenna trilogy and then found this forum some months later. So I'm not really advanced in spirituality, but I do want to cross that gate.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

User avatar
adilerten
Posts: 1399
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Guess it's time

Postby adilerten » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:28 am

Hello noworries!

My name is Adil and I can guide you on this journey if you like.

And please tell me how can i call you, would you prefer noworries ?

If you are ready and ok please tell me let's start..

Adil.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

User avatar
noworries
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:09 am

Re: Guess it's time

Postby noworries » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:01 pm

Hello Adil!

Great, thank you! I'm happy you want to be my guide. Yes, you can call me noworries - that's fine.

I'm ready, let's start! :)

User avatar
adilerten
Posts: 1399
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Guess it's time

Postby adilerten » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:18 pm

Ok then :)

Before we start, i would like to share some tips to make our
dialogue smooth and effective:

1. Please write as much as you can; I would advise you to
write at least once a day, in order to keep it fresh and buid a momentum.

2. Our main focus here is on seeing through the illusion of
what we call "I," "me," or "self." Please set aside all the teachings
you've learned from books, retreats, youtube, and so on, for the sake
of not bringing bias to what we'll do during our conversation.

3. Process will be mostly answering my questions, its best efficiant if you may answer them one
by one..Please be always 100% honest with your answers
Don't choose the "right." answer, from "what comes up" There's no one here to judge or critisise.
If you are stuck with any issue, we can always take a close look at it.

4-set aside all other spiritually related materials (books, videos etc.) so that you can completely focus on your own direct experience. ?

5-Here's a link that shows how to use the quote function: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ[/

6- I would suggest you read "What Liberation Unleashed is not" from this link http://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

User avatar
adilerten
Posts: 1399
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Guess it's time

Postby adilerten » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:18 pm

Can you tell me Noworries;

What kind of changes you are expecting to happen, what is that needs to be different.
What are you waiting for? What are you hoping for? What is not complete right now?
what you do not want to happen?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

User avatar
noworries
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:09 am

Re: Guess it's time

Postby noworries » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:27 pm

Thanks for the tips, I’ll keep them in mind.
What kind of changes you are expecting to happen, what is that needs to be different.
I expect more peace and a quiet mind. Maybe not exactly quiet, but I hope to constantly realise that thoughts are not real. That there is nobody doing the thinking, and that I’m able to relax into the moment en surrender more deeply. I expect to feel the same but different, with a broader perspective. I just really like to realise the truth and live from a more integrated place. With less expectations, less stress, less thinking and more being and appreciating life as it unfolds.

From there, I would love to be able to better help people move forward in their lives. But who knows - maybe I don’t feel like that after this is finished. We’ll see. ;)
What are you waiting for? What are you hoping for? What is not complete right now?
I guess the biggest thing is that I tend to ‘live in my head’. I’ve had glimpses that I think showed me what reality is really like. Then I suddenly see how silly it is to call a car a ‘car’, that it’s all just labels. And that it’s equally silly and largely arbitrary that we organise our lives in a certain way, and not in another way.

What I’m hoping for, is being able to free myself of the ‘hold’ these labels, ideas and constructs have on my experience. So that I feel more free, more alive, more open and relaxed.

So that is what feels incomplete right now I guess.
what you do not want to happen?
I do not want to slip into madness. That’s for sure. And also, to me it feels sad if I live my whole life without realising the truth. I just feel I have to, like something is pulling me to involve in this stuff - so yes, mostly this.

User avatar
adilerten
Posts: 1399
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Guess it's time

Postby adilerten » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:12 pm

Thanks for the tips, I’ll keep them in mind.

What kind of changes you are expecting to happen, what is that needs to be different.

I expect more peace and a quiet mind. Maybe not exactly quiet, but I hope to constantly realise that thoughts are not real. That there is nobody doing the thinking, and that I’m able to relax into the moment en surrender more deeply. I expect to feel the same but different, with a broader perspective. I just really like to realise the truth and live from a more integrated place. With less expectations, less stress, less thinking and more being and appreciating life as it unfolds.

From there, I would love to be able to better help people move forward in their lives. But who knows - maybe I don’t feel like that after this is finished. We’ll see. ;)

Peace - quiet mind may or may not come. Every experience has its own flow. Realizing what is not true sure may feel freeing from conditioned thinking. I advice you to focus on the moment and drop all kind of expectations.

What are you waiting for? What are you hoping for? What is not complete right now?

I guess the biggest thing is that I tend to ‘live in my head’. I’ve had glimpses that I think showed me what reality is really like. Then I suddenly see how silly it is to call a car a ‘car’, that it’s all just labels. And that it’s equally silly and largely arbitrary that we organise our lives in a certain way, and not in another way.

What I’m hoping for, is being able to free myself of the ‘hold’ these labels, ideas and constructs have on my experience. So that I feel more free, more alive, more open and relaxed.

So that is what feels incomplete right now I guess.

There is no one living in the head :)
You are right about labels. We will look at all kinds labels for you to see them more clear ;)
But as i said better drop all kinds of expectations and focus our work.

what you do not want to happen?

I do not want to slip into madness. That’s for sure. And also, to me it feels sad if I live my whole life without realising the truth. I just feel I have to, like something is pulling me to involve in this stuff - so yes, mostly this.

"I do not want to slip in to madness" is just another worrying thought about an imaginary future.
But "worrying thought" is only another thought right ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

User avatar
adilerten
Posts: 1399
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Guess it's time

Postby adilerten » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:14 pm

Ok..Please tell me what happens when I say that THERE IS NO YOU! You have not existed, you do not exist now, and you will not exist in the future.

What is happening right here and now, does not need or require or depend on you - in any way shape or form.

"You" simply do not exist.

Life is happening, without the need for a you.


Internalize this and respond with what comes up please.
There is no wrong or right answer here, we want to look at whatever comes up as direct experience. Describe as fully as possible the reaction to this.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

User avatar
noworries
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:09 am

Re: Guess it's time

Postby noworries » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:04 pm

Well the first reaction I’ve got is: "I understand this concept, but ‘life’ isn’t creating my slideshow for this presentation I’m preparing. And life isn't making me food. It is I!"

I notice thoughts that say stuff like this. The conceptual understanding is there, but the direct experience is really different. Because there seem to be thoughts and feelings that tell me that this statement is not true.

But when I scrutinise the thoughts, they disappear. And I start wondering: who just turned on the heater then? Who is anxiously checking his email for the tracking info of some package that’ll arrive today? Who is feeling nerves and emotions if not me? What, how?
What is happening right here and now, does not need or require or depend on you - in any way shape or form.
This statement really resonates with me and triggers a feeling of release and surrender. Because somewhere I know this to be true. But then the thoughts come back and life seems to revolve about me.
You have not existed, you do not exist now, and you will not exist in the future.
Reading this I feel a sense of sadness and freedom at the same time. Like letting go of a great place while traveling, to go further on some new adventure. I kind of like ‘me’, and I have to get used to the idea that I have never existed and am actually not existing at this very moment.

So who's doing the typing? Because typing is happening. And I seem to be putting in effort to make the typing happen.

So basic reaction: confused emotions, thoughts that state this idea is not true, and an awareness of these things happening that I seem to call ‘I’. My mind wants to conceptualise this idea of 'no-self', which it is great at. But I don’t have a direct experience of this statement being true. ‘I’ seems to be there and is quite busy thinking about how to control life.

User avatar
adilerten
Posts: 1399
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Guess it's time

Postby adilerten » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:43 pm


who just turned on the heater then? Who is anxiously checking his email for the tracking info of some package that’ll arrive today? Who is feeling nerves and emotions if not me? What, how?
Does cloud need a clouder to happen ? Does wind need a winder to happen ? So tracking info will happen, feelings will happen. Do they need a doer to happen ?
Language says wind moves clouds, but in actuality 'clouds move' 'wind blows' are labels on something we notice- the movement is happening, wind is not the doer nor the cloud is a doer. Even though language says so. Same is this I- a unit of language, in every sentence. But....
What does the word I refer to? Can you sum up, what words I is pointing to in your experience.

I kind of like ‘me’, and I have to get used to the idea that I have never existed and am actually not existing at this very moment.
Its interesting that your say "you" like "you" ? Who likes who ?
There is no you to like or dislike and it is not an idea that you don't exist. It is a fact. Your existance is an idea, merely a thought.
Is thought real ?
Close your eyes and imagine in your thoughts vividly that you are eating something from your fridge.
Imagine so vividly try to feel the texture of the food you chose, tastes, smells everything..
Now open your eyes and actually go to kitchen grab and eat the food that you imagined to eat.
Taste..Smell..
Which one is real ?
Thought of it or actually eating it ?
Thoughts exist but is the content of the thought real ?

But I don’t have a direct experience of this statement being true. ‘I’ seems to be there and is quite busy thinking about how to control life.
What is the direct experience of an "I" ?


Direct experiences are listed below and there is no other experience than direct experiences,

Sights
Sounds
Touch sensations
Smells
Tastes
Thoughts
Emotions
Attention
Internal sensations such as tiredness etc.


Blue fonts are questions for you to be answered,
Waiting for your answers.
Thank you
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

User avatar
noworries
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:09 am

Re: Guess it's time

Postby noworries » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:45 pm

Thank you for this Adil. Let’s see.
Does cloud need a clouder to happen ? Does wind need a winder to happen ? So tracking info will happen, feelings will happen. Do they need a doer to happen ?
No. Things happen by themselves. No one is doing the clouding or the winding. I can see how the labels we learned make it seem so, even though direct experience doesn’t confirm it. There is nobody doing these things. These things happen by themselves.
What does the word I refer to? Can you sum up, what words I is pointing to in your experience.
Ok, so I see the word I pointing to my body and my identity. Which itself is a large collection of thoughts. Beliefs, memories, expectations, judgments, feelings. It also points to my unique characteristics - like I’m a sensitive person or I respond like this or that. It points to the voice in my head, that narrator of life. Which seems to want to talk all the time, and likes to think about everything and label everything. Like ‘oh that’s a tree’, and ‘this is cold’ - which makes no sense at all because the sensation of coldness has already been experienced perfectly without any labels at all.

So it’s all these things which seem to make up the I, mostly chatter in de mind. I can understand that this particular collection of thoughts just got labeled ‘I’. But this is understanding, not my direct experience.
Which one is real ?
Thought of it or actually eating it ?
Thoughts exist but is the content of the thought real ?
So I tried it with drinking water because there’s no fridge here. And yes, actually drinking the water is real. The thoughts of drinking water are mere stories in my mind.

Thoughts do seem to exist as sensations - so yes, thoughts are there. The content of the thoughts... well, it’s mostly labels that got attached to reality. Or stories happening in the mind. So the plant on my table doesn’t need a label to be a plant. It just is. So the content of the thought has nothing to do with bare reality. My thoughts label reality. Maybe not visual thoughts - but those are mere dreams or visualisations of what is. So an image in my mind of a plant is not the plant. So the content of the thought is not real in that sense.

This is confusing.
What is the direct experience of an "I" ?
Good question. Let me see. So in my experience it’s mostly the mind chatter. That narrator I talked about. The voice inside that provides the subtitles to experience in this life. And which comes up with ways of controlling life to his benefit.

But these are - again - mere thoughts built upon thoughts and believes. So I guess ‘direct experience’ of an I is experiencing this inner voice and this endless stream of thoughts.

So if that is true, then it reasons that the contents of these thoughts are also mere labels and contain no substance of reality themselves.

This is interesting. Thank you. Looking forward to do further examination.

User avatar
adilerten
Posts: 1399
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Guess it's time

Postby adilerten » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:15 pm

Thank you for this Adil. Let’s see.

Does cloud need a clouder to happen ? Does wind need a winder to happen ? So tracking info will happen, feelings will happen. Do they need a doer to happen ?

No. Things happen by themselves. No one is doing the clouding or the winding. I can see how the labels we learned make it seem so, even though direct experience doesn’t confirm it. There is nobody doing these things. These things happen by themselves.

Yes these things happen themselves. Good looking.

What does the word I refer to? Can you sum up, what words I is pointing to in your experience.

Ok, so I see the word I pointing to my body and my identity.-

Do "you" really have a body ?
Do you feel like living in a body ?
Can you tell me when you say "i" where finger points to ?


Which one is real ?
Thought of it or actually eating it ?
Thoughts exist but is the content of the thought real ?

So I tried it with drinking water because there’s no fridge here. And yes, actually drinking the water is real. The thoughts of drinking water are mere stories in my mind.

Thoughts do seem to exist as sensations - so yes, thoughts are there. The content of the thoughts... well, it’s mostly labels that got attached to reality. Or stories happening in the mind. So the plant on my table doesn’t need a label to be a plant. It just is. So the content of the thought has nothing to do with bare reality. My thoughts label reality. Maybe not visual thoughts - but those are mere dreams or visualisations of what is. So an image in my mind of a plant is not the plant. So the content of the thought is not real in that sense.

This is confusing.

Sure content of the thought is not real.

Here is a great article about labels from Ilona.. I want you to read this article and do the excercise there and report me what comes please.
http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/05/labels.html


What is the direct experience of an "I" ?

So I guess ‘direct experience’ of an I is experiencing this inner voice and this endless stream of thoughts.

Ok. While we are looking for the truth, we will be always using "Looking" instead of "Thinking"

Here’s a quick example of the difference between thinking and looking that may help:

If I ask you what color are your socks, you can respond to this from two different perspectives—thinking and looking. So you can answer this question by either

1) thinking about what socks you put on this morning and answering from a place of remembrance, or
2) you can simply look at your socks, see them directly and then reply.

Sure 2'nd will be our method to see things in direct experience to understand what is real what is not!

We will get use to LOOK at our direct experience instead of "thinking" to understand what is real what is not!

So direct experiences are:

Sights
Sounds
Touch sensations
Smells
Tastes
Thoughts
Emotions
Attention
Internal sensations such as tiredness etc.

So what is this "I" when you really LOOK for it ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

User avatar
noworries
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:09 am

Re: Guess it's time

Postby noworries » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:50 pm

Thanks. I’ll do this exercise hopefully tomorrow. I’m having a busy day tomorrow but will come back with my response to the exercise ASAP.

User avatar
adilerten
Posts: 1399
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Guess it's time

Postby adilerten » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:16 pm

Thanks. I’ll do this exercise hopefully tomorrow. I’m having a busy day tomorrow but will come back with my response to the exercise ASAP.
Its ok. Take your time :)
Only focus and look when you have time ok?
Dont think LOOK!
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

User avatar
adilerten
Posts: 1399
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Guess it's time

Postby adilerten » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:45 pm

Hello; just a reminder,
I would advise you to write at least once a day, in order to keep it fresh and buid a momentum.
Thank you.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 0 guests