The Bell rings for a guide!

[greenrushwars]

The mindfulness bell rings as I've been sent here for the second time through similar pathways.

Is there a guide with the skill of an architect and the strength of the trees?
I have known the road for some time. But my path does not always conform with it.
I am aware but understand that labeling said awareness is redundant.

I am quite redundant.

Are there any teachers who will answer the mindfulness bell?

[vinceschubert]

Ok greenrushwars, just a couple of things to start;
Will you agree to stay with this process until it is done ?
Will you agree to (normally) post at least once each day ?
Give me a name to relate to.
Start by telling of your expectations.

[greenrushwars]

My name is JR.

I am comitted to work at this until it is done. I'm also commited to learning what it means for it to be done. I will post regulalry as I find this to be an interesting and useful step in life.

My expectations:

I'd like to explore the possibilities of enlightenment. I believe that I've had glimpses of what I consider to be selflessness and I would like very much to learn to hone this. I am committed to learning constantly. I have been doing so for as long as I can remember and I'm sure even before that. I would like to maintain my body and mind. I would like to push my abilities to the utmost ends of the spectrum.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. I look forward to working with you!

[vinceschubert]

My name is JR.

I am comitted to work at this until it is done.

Morning JR (it is here in Australia)
Good to be committed, that is intention, which is about as much control of thoughts as it is possible to have.
Have you realized that you can't stop a thought half way through ? (try it)
Have you seen that you can't control which thought will be the next to appear ? (look)
Do you accept that thoughts just arise (a brain response to stimuli - one of which is previous intention)

My expectations:

I'd like to explore the possibilities of enlightenment. I believe that I've had glimpses of what I consider to be selflessness and I would like very much to learn to hone this. I am committed to learning constantly. I have been doing so for as long as I can remember and I'm sure even before that. I would like to maintain my body and mind. I would like to push my abilities to the utmost ends of the spectrum.

These are not expectations, good information, but not expectations.
Paint me a word picture of what it might be like to be liberated.

it's good to be working with you.
vince

[greenrushwars]

Vince,

Have you realized that you can't stop a thought half way through ? (try it)

Thoughts are like eddys in the sea. When any attempts are made to alter or stop the current a counter current is formed.

Have you seen that you can't control which thought will be the next to appear ? (look)

This seems intuitive but I suppose I've never examined thoughts in this way. Thoughts seem to lead into other thoughts naturally. I don't suppose that I could crate a thought out of thin (or thick) air. This concept is one that I will examine further.

Do you accept that thoughts just arise (a brain response to stimuli - one of which is previous intention)

That would be the natural conclusion. It's strange how easy that sounds, considering the weight that thoughts can carry.

Paint me a word picture of what it might be like to be liberated.

With liberation my imagination would roam freely. They visual representation of my mind, everything that I interpret, would be plain an clear. Love and kindness keeping me warm, my actions and speech turn miserable sadness to the beauty of decay. Time wouldn't matter. A second would be broken down infinite times. I would see and understand instantly the spaces in between. Mind and body would be whole not parts of a whole.

Your questions have challenged me in a new way.
I look forward to your responses.
Thank you,

JR

[vinceschubert]

Thoughts are like eddys in the sea. When any attempts are made to alter or stop the current a counter current is formed.

Yes, thoughts do stimulate more thoughts.
What might determine the kind of thoughts that arise as a response to earlier thoughts ?

This concept is one that I will examine further.

What occurred with the further examination ?
Your expectations are partly reasonable and partly romantic. Do expect that you will never have another headache or stub your toe again ?

[greenrushwars]

What might determine the kind of thoughts that arise as a response to earlier thoughts ?

intention, external stimulation, internal stimulation, past experiences

What occurred with the further examination ?

Thoughts are difficult to stay out of. When I'm not trapped by thought my mood seems to be happier and more relaxed and control no longer seems like an issue. I don't know if i could say that its possible to stop thought, but thoughts are capable of drowning other thoughts. That is not to say that thought is always a bad thing, though.

Your expectations are partly reasonable and partly romantic. Do expect that you will never have another headache or stub your toe again ?

I will not, because "I" isn't anything.

[vinceschubert]

When I'm not trapped by thought

Tell about being trapped by thought.

"I" isn't anything.

In what way do you know this ?

[greenrushwars]

Thanks again for responding Vince! I hope that this forum is as useful to you as it has been to me thus far. I hope that you are doing well.

Tell about being trapped by thought.

Well suppose that a situation arises that seems unfavorable and I either become flustered or realize that it is quite silly to become flustered. While the former happens less and less it still does.
Becoming flustered is very similar to riding a roller coaster or rather making the decision to ride one. It starts way before there is even a roller coaster. I have to decide to go to the amusement park first, decide to pay admission, and decide to wait in an incredible long line sort of "pre-perseverating." That is to say setting myself up for the roller coaster. This doesn't start at the moment of frustration but long, long before. When I wake up forgetting the lessons of the day before and for getting the practice of mindfulness.
But with practice it has become clear that the roller coaster isn't permanent.
So instead of remaining flustered I step off the coaster- at the platform of course- and examine all the twists and turns and loops that put myself into that mindset. Then I breath and let go to learning and a deeper understanding.
Focusing on the breath helps the mind stay out of thoughts in times like these.

In what way do you know this ?

Primarily academically and more and more experientially. The search for the self continues on even though I understand it to be non-existent. It sounds confusing. Well, it is confusing.

[vinceschubert]

morning JR, yes guiding is helpful here too, the focus promotes 'deepening'.
Well, it sounds like you aren't "trapped" by thought at all, or at least when you are caged that the door is left open.
You realise the process that used to completely swallow you up and at some point become free again.
This will continue post liberation - perhaps at an accelerated rate. The frequency and intensity diminishes and each time you 'catch yourself' in the old habit (thought trap) you will chuckle at the persistance of brain conditioning.

Good that the search continues, and it will until reaching that magical point where total acceptance that any semblance of an I was always just a story.

Tell what is your belief about choice.

What might determine the kind of thoughts that arise as a response to earlier thoughts ?

& you said "intention, external stimulation, internal stimulation, past experiences

my question was about the nature of the thoughts...

[greenrushwars]

Hey there!

Tell what is your belief about choice.

Choice is whether or not a decision is made in regards to outside stimuli. Making no decision is also a choice. This is tricky because all of the choices that any one faces are based primarily on things out side of their respective control sphere's. Determination battles against habit and both battle against distractions in order to settle for a final agreement. Also choice can only go so far. One can only work with what they are given and already have. Though if the mind contains all things then Choice seems to be unlimited.

What might determine the kind of thoughts that arise as a response to earlier thoughts ?
& you said "intention, external stimulation, internal stimulation, past experiences
my question was about the nature of the thoughts...

The nature of thoughts? Do you mean what the thoughts are rooted in or the characteristics of thought?

[vinceschubert]

Here is documentary done by BBC that has several key points. It shows how the sense of self is brain generated and it's placement can be changed, and the one relevant to choice is near the end and shows how a conscious decision/choice is actually made some 6 seconds before by the brain - before thought kicks in.
After watching it, see if your answer to the choice question is different.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E

Yes the characteristics of thought.

vince

[greenrushwars]

Well in regards to the choice experiment.. in one specific case, that of the dramatic narrator, the decision was made 6 seconds before he pressed the button not necessarily before he made the conscious choice to do so.
Choice is obviously a determined more thoroughly by the brain before it ever reaches the consciousness but the brain allows for choice for a reason. The brain is an incredible organ that takes stock of all stimuli before making a decision. Consciousness is just one of those stimuli. Is there any more information available that relates to this study or a study that is similar?


The characteristics of thought:
Thoughts often are abstract and lead to distracting stories of the mind. They can be rooted in the mind's past experience, present experience (naturally), and expectations of the future experience. Thoughts are like the unconscious venting steam into the conscious mind.

Hopefully You've been having a lovely weekend and week up until now. I look forward to your response.

JR

[vinceschubert]

Mornin' JR, Hmm, i presumed that he pressed the button the moment (within a fraction of a second) his mind did what he thought was a decision - but in fact was what the brain had already decided.
The point being, not that there is no choice but that mind(thought) doesn't make that choice. It is already made based on a whole lot of things.
Which brings us to the other question asked. That about the characteristics of thought.
i wasn't asking what the characteristics were, but what determines those characteristics.
What determines the choice the brain made before mind stormed in claiming the choice as its' own?

Please answer the above before reading below.
Something that came up in a previous post is the nature of the conscious/unconscious mind.
Well firstly the nature of mind, What is it ?
Does it exist as a thing ? or is it a process ?

On unconscious/conscious mind, here is a blog entry with a (rather long) Krishnamurti quote on the subject.
Please come back here with your reactions to it.
http://vince-wisingup.blogspot.com.au/2 ... cious.html

[greenrushwars]

Happy Saturday Mr. Vince,
Lots of adventures around every corner. What a wonderful world that we live in! Hope you are doing well.

i wasn't asking what the characteristics were, but what determines those characteristics.
What determines the choice the brain made before mind stormed in claiming the choice as its' own?

The subconscious brain did. Just as now. My brain knows that I will learn something from responding to this forum and before I even decided to sit down and respond, my fingers were typing in the address bar.

Well firstly the nature of mind, What is it ?

What is the mind? Everything. All perceptions, understandings, elaborations. 'My' perception of this body is only due to the fact that the mind acknowledges its existence.

Does it exist as a thing ? or is it a process ?
Both and neither. It just exists. A node in a world consciousness.

Please come back here with your reactions to it.

What a wonderful statement. It is very interesting thinking about the "differences" between unconscious and conscious mind. It is all one mind just with superimposed barriers that I've been too scared to properly incorporate with the rest of the mind. Its funny. Thought is powerful enough to change the behavior of the brain even though it is a byproduct of the brain.

Is it possible or necessary to be aware all of the time?