Why wait any longer... let's start !

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Ronald
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Why wait any longer... let's start !

Postby Ronald » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:14 am

Let’s dance the dance of truth.
It’s such a blessing to see through your old conditioning.
Free yourself...Now !!

Ronald

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Kevin49
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Re: Why wait any longer... let's start !

Postby Kevin49 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:50 pm

Hi Ronald,

I'm 49 years old and embarrassed to admit how many non-dual books I've read. I think I "intellectually" understand non-duality but I've never experienced or felt true liberation/realization. My essence is stuck in a limited/separate self despite understanding that the belief in the ownership of my thoughts is what is holding me back. I stay in the "I AM" / witnessing mode and tried surrendering to the now as often as possible but still can't find liberation. Any help would be "greatly" appreciated.

Peace

Kevin49

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Ronald
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Re: Why wait any longer... let's start !

Postby Ronald » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:00 pm

Dear Kevin,

It’s time to cash in on your book-investment !!!!
but I've never experienced or felt true liberation/realization.
What do you expect to feel when you experience true liberation?
My essence is stuck in a limited/separate self..
How do you know this? Look deep……. How could the ocean be stuck in drop of water???.... is this not just another thought?
understanding that the belief in the ownership of my thoughts is what is holding me
back.
Yes , you are so right , it’s just the belief in the ownership of your thoughts.
But who is it that beliefs he is the owner of his thoughts?
I stay in the "I AM" / witnessing mode and tried surrendering to the now as often as possible but still can't find liberation.
Can you tell me how you stay in the 'I AM/witnessing mode?

Relax Kevin you don’t have to do anything to be in the now, where else can you be than in the now?
Please take some time in nature, and look how a tree "stays" in the now.

Looking forward to working with you,

Peace to you,

Ronald

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Kevin49
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Re: Why wait any longer... let's start !

Postby Kevin49 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:44 pm

K: Thanks for responding Ronald - I look forward to working with you as well. I certainly hope I can cash in on my book investment and my time spent.

R:
What do you expect to feel when you experience true liberation?
K: I've read many different personal accounts relating to liberation and realization so I'm not so sure exactly what to expect. My gut tells me that I will experience life from a totally different "perspective" in which the "me/personal reference point" would disappear and pure "being/isness" is all that would remain. Instead of being "me", I would instead be everything and everyone around me. I would expect to feel clearer, lighter and less worried about everything. I would expect/hope that the seeking and psychological suffering would end. (I don't really suffer that much but do have a fair share of doubts and worries - "I know" these are all just meaningless/powerless thoughts.


R: "How do you know this? Look deep……. How could the ocean be stuck in drop of water???.... is this not just another thought?"

K: I know that when there are no thoughts, my essence is pure being - I feel peace when reading a non-dual book or when I'm by myself observing my thoughts. However, when I come home to my wife and three kids or when I'm involved in a stressful situation at work, all of the pure being stuff seems to goes out the window. Not sure if it's due to conditioning or simply not staying present. I've had a phone consultation with one of the best non-dual teachers out there (IMO). He told me I must become very clear on who and what I really am - he confirmed that he thought I had it right - but no significant break throughs yet.

R: "But who is it that beliefs he is the owner of his thoughts?"

K: It's this fictional "I/me" thought based reference point that I can't realize is really a fictional character due to habit/conditioning. I realize (on some level) that the "me" reference point are just a bunch of thoughts.

R: "Can you tell me how you stay in the 'I AM/witnessing mode?"

K: I just try to "just be" and let thoughts float by - not get "hooked" by the thoughts and stories that are floating by. I try to simply observe internal and external stuff without having any opinions. I try to relax all acute focusing and just "be" - surrendering to everything. Maybe I should be doing more "investigating" into who I really am?

R: "Please take some time in nature, and look how a tree "stays" in the now."

I'm looking out the window at a pine tree right now and it's just hanging out - standing there not thinking and not worrying about anything. However, the tree doesn't have a child with autism to worry about or financial worries. The tree doesn't have these thoughts going by - at least that I know of - or any habits or conditioning.

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Ronald
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Re: Why wait any longer... let's start !

Postby Ronald » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:05 pm

Dear Kevin,

Thank for writing me about your expectations. Don’t expect too much fireworks, going through the gate is different for everyone, be curious.
I’ll ask you to put your expectations aside for now and lets work with a beginners mind.
I know" these are all just meaningless/powerless thoughts.
Yes, Kevin you are so right !
What gives a thought meaning and power?
It's this fictional "I/me" thought based reference point that I can't realize is really a fictional character due to habit/conditioning. I realize (on some level) that the "me" reference point are just a bunch of thoughts
.

Can you close your eyes and imagine(on all levels) for a while that the ”me” reference point is just a bundle of thoughts ?

What is happening when you do that, what feelings or thoughts arise?
I just try to "just be" and let thoughts float by - not get "hooked" by the thoughts and stories that are floating by. I try to simply observe internal and external stuff without having any opinions. I try to relax all acute focusing and just "be" - surrendering to everything. Maybe I should be doing more "investigating" into who I really am?
You are working very hard, trying to come where you already are…..take some time in nature ….and just open your senses; listen, feel, smell, see, hear and taste and let everything appear and disappear….. enjoy!
I'm looking out the window at a pine tree right now and it's just hanging out - standing there not thinking and not worrying about anything.
Good observation, trees a fine teachers, they know the above exercise very well.

All the best,

Ronald

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Kevin49
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Re: Why wait any longer... let's start !

Postby Kevin49 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:30 pm

Hi Ronald,

Here are some reponses to your questions:

R: "What gives a thought meaning and power?"

K: I think "believing" in thoughts gives them power. Believing that they come from a center point/person.

R: "Can you close your eyes and imagine(on all levels) for a while that the ”me” reference point is just a bundle of thoughts ? What is happening when you do that, what feelings or thoughts arise?"

K: Yes, I do this a lot. When I do this, I experience mental clarity and physical relaxation. I also experience a wierd pins and needles/pressure sensation at the top of my head.

R: "You are working very hard, trying to come where you already are…..take some time in nature ….and just open your senses; listen, feel, smell, see, hear and taste and let everything appear and disappear….. enjoy!"

K: Will do, I do this a lot as well - it is very "relaxing". I'm going for a walk (through a park) to pick up some lunch. As always - I will do this again. I am a nature lover and love to be outside so this is very easy/natural.

Regards/Peace,

Kevin49

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Ronald
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Re: Why wait any longer... let's start !

Postby Ronald » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:43 pm

Dear Kevin,

Nice work, let's go further....
I think "believing" in thoughts gives them power. Believing that they come from a center point/person.
That’s It !!!!, believing that they come from a center and believing their content.
Is there a center point/person that believes the thoughts or is it just another thought ?
I experience mental clarity and physical relaxation.
This is very nice, Kevin… and during this clarity and relaxation did you find an I in the center of this bundle of thoughts or are there just thoughts automatically coming and going?
it is very "relaxing".
Yes it is, and although relaxation is not the ultimate goal, it surely helps to become clear. When the mind is calm, and when you are clear, you can even look deeper.
I’ll ask you to look deeper and see whether the answers that come up are true!!!

All the best,

Ronald

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Kevin49
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Re: Why wait any longer... let's start !

Postby Kevin49 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:05 pm

Thanks for responding Ronald. If you couldn't tell, becoming liberated means a great deal to me. I greatly appreciate your time and effort. (No need to worry about me dropping out.)

Below are my responses to your questions:

R: Is there a center point/person that believes the thoughts or is it just another thought ?

K: It "feels" like there is a center of reference or person but when I focus and look deeper for a prolonged period, the feeling of a center reference point disapates. The reference point spreads out into a more spacious area all around me. I suspect the center point/person is either a thought or a group of thoughts that are stuck due to a life time of conditioning and habit.

R: This is very nice, Kevin… and during this clarity and relaxation did you find an I in the center of this bundle of thoughts or are there just thoughts automatically coming and going?

K: Sometimes yes there is the feeling of an I. It fades in and out.

R: Yes it is, and although relaxation is not the ultimate goal, it surely helps to become clear. When the mind is calm, and when you are clear, you can even look deeper.

K: Very recently, I've been experiencing a feeling that I'm balancing or riding on a surf board when I stay with the "I AM" (myself as non-conceptual awareness) or looking into who I really am. This balancing feeling is turning into a feeling of nervousness and a bit of fear - very strange.

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Ronald
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Re: Why wait any longer... let's start !

Postby Ronald » Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:06 pm

Dear Kevin,

You are doing great.

Becoming liberated is not a personal thing, your energy is for the benefit of everyone and everything,
Thank you Kevin!!!
It "feels" like there is a center of reference or person but when I focus and look deeper for a prolonged period, the feeling of a center reference point disapates.
Yes this is why it’s so important to look deeper and deeper.
The reference point spreads out into a more spacious area all around me.
Please don’t stop this spreading out, in your next meditation, let this “centerpoint” become so
BIG!! that there is nothing outside of it. And when you do this is it still possible to speak of a “centerpoint” ???
I suspect the center point/person is either a thought or a group of thoughts that are stuck due to a life time of conditioning and habit.


Yes, it has to do with conditioning and habit.
Could you say: centerpoint/person= thought/group of thoughts ?

Sometimes yes there is the feeling of an I. It fades in and out.


Could you look into this feeling, is there a feeling of an I, or a feeling that is labeled by the mind, through an I-thought ???
Very recently, I've been experiencing a feeling that I'm balancing or riding on a surf board when I stay with the "I AM" (myself as non-conceptual awareness) or looking into who I really am. This balancing feeling is turning into a feeling of nervousness and a bit of fear - very strange
Very good Kevin !! The deeper you look the harder it is for the lie of a separate I to hide, in the end there is nowhere to hide and the truth will be seen. The lie of separation is built on fear of not surviving without a (strong) I, this fear will be tangible when you bring the lie of a seperate I to the light.

Just open up to the fear and stay connected with your breath…with the now. See what is really happening……!!!.
Look into the fear so there is no place to hide for this fear, you can dive directly into the truth.

All the best,
Ronald

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Kevin49
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Re: Why wait any longer... let's start !

Postby Kevin49 » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:15 pm

Hi Ronald,

Hope you're doing well - below are some comments/responses to yours'

R: Becoming liberated is not a personal thing, your energy is for the benefit of everyone and everything,

K: How true - Awakening is about getting rid of the personal and becoming impersonal so to speak (or so I've heard). I think it would be cool for my kids to have an awakened father.

R: Yes this is why it’s so important to look deeper and deeper.

K: It's tough to "look" while I'm with my family on the weekends. I went for a walk early this morning - my understanding of this seems solid. There is no me, my personal reference point is just a group of thoughts, my real identity is just pure experience - or rather "what is happening at the present moment". However, this just doesn't seem to stick. Some teachers say "don't over shoot the mark" and that it so obvious that most people miss it. If that's truly the case, is going "deeper" necessary? How does one go deeper without using effort? Should the effort be to try and let go and just be? Or make an effort to convince your self that there is no self just non-conceptual awareness? It is important to stay with this as often as possible - to keep reminding your self who you really are throughout the day?

R: Please don’t stop this spreading out, in your next meditation, let this “centerpoint” become so
BIG!! that there is nothing outside of it. And when you do this is it still possible to speak of a “centerpoint” ???

K: Good tip. There is a centerpoint - but it disappears for what seems like only miliseconds.

R: Yes, it has to do with conditioning and habit.
Could you say: centerpoint/person= thought/group of thoughts ?

K: Yes - it's all thoughts. I know this on a conceptual level. How do I get it to stick?

R: Could you look into this feeling, is there a feeling of an I, or a feeling that is labeled by the mind, through an I-thought ???

K: Again - it's all mind and the mind creates the feeling or a an I/reference point - or so I suspect.

R: Very good Kevin !! The deeper you look the harder it is for the lie of a separate I to hide, in the end there is nowhere to hide and the truth will be seen. The lie of separation is built on fear of not surviving without a (strong) I, this fear will be tangible when you bring the lie of a seperate I to the light.

Just open up to the fear and stay connected with your breath…with the now. See what is really happening……!!!.
Look into the fear so there is no place to hide for this fear, you can dive directly into the truth.

K: Thanks again for all of your help Ronald. I'll keep "looking" to find the real self and try to stay with it once I find it. I've read that awakening/realization usually just happens when you least expect it - I've also read that awakening may also be a slow/unfolding process. Like I wrote above, I think I "understand it" from a conceptual level, but it doesn't "sink-in" so to speak. I felt a major psychological and physical difference after contemplating this morning - I hope this means I'm on the right track.

Hope you have a great weekend!

Peace

Kevin49

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Ronald
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Re: Why wait any longer... let's start !

Postby Ronald » Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:45 pm

Dear Kevin,

Thank you I’m doing fine!
I think it would be cool for my kids to have an awakened father.
There are no mistakes in reality, your kids have a father on the path, just what they need at this moment isn’t that beautiful!!!!!!
There is no me, my personal reference point is just a group of thoughts, my real identity is just pure experience - or rather “what is happening at the present moment”.
Yes, Kevin ..that’s it!!!….everything that is happening in the moment….nothing personal… There is a doing but no doer..life is living itself…automatically……!!!!......effortlessly !!!!!....isn't that a MIRACLE !!!!
If that’s truly the case, is going “deeper” necessary? How does one go deeper without using effort?
Who is it that’s going deeper, who is it that’s using effort????..and remember “don’t overshoot the mark ;)”!!
It’s tough to “look” while I’m with my family on the weekends.
What is the difference between being with your family and taking a walk? Look from the perspective of the above?
However, this just doesn’t seem to stick
This is an interesting one for you, Kevin !..... can you explain to me what is meant by “doesn’t seem to stick”.
And who is it that is experiencing this not sticking??? “
I felt a major psychological and physical difference after contemplating this morning
.

Can you describe to me what you experienced? Tell me something about the thoughts and the feelings that were arising.
I’ve read that awakening/realization usually just happens when you least expect it
I’ve also read that awakening may also be a slow/unfolding process. Like I wrote above, I think I “understand it” from a conceptual level, but it doesn’t “sink-in” so to speak
.

It’s important to understand it from a conceptual level, and you do!!!!

But the mind(the mind is a worrying machine) normally doesn’t surrender so easily, so it starts “telling” you: " it doesn’t sink in and it doesn’t stick". That’s what the mind does…worrying,creating confusion…confusion and worrying is the energy of the mind.

When the mind tells you it doesn’t stick….it doesn’t sink in etc…just ask:
Is this is true???!!!!
How do"I" know that this is true???!!!!!
And who would "I" be without this thought???!!!!!

This makes the difference between standing in front of the Gate and entering the Gate….
Just enter the Gate.... Kevin, just enter.......

Peace to you,

Ronald

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Kevin49
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Re: Why wait any longer... let's start !

Postby Kevin49 » Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:10 pm

Hi Ronald,

Thanks for your responses - I do think they're helping clear things up. Here's more:

R: Who is it that’s going deeper, who is it that’s using effort????..and remember “don’t overshoot the mark ;)”!!

K: I guess (once again) it's an intertwining of thoughts and beliefs all stuck together.

R: What is the difference between being with your family and taking a walk? Look from the perspective of the above?

K: Lot's of distractions and a ("seemingly") total loss of "awareness". The interest in the real Self goes away and the thoughts and emotions take "center stage" and I identify with them.

R: This is an interesting one for you, Kevin !..... can you explain to me what is meant by “doesn’t seem to stick”.
And who is it that is experiencing this not sticking??? “

K: The fact that my true essence is "non-conceptual awareness" or "pure seeing/experiencintg" doesn't seem to stick. A false belief in a "me" reference point won't go away. I haven't been able to get a good peek under Santa Claus's beard to see that he's not real - so to speak.


R: Can you describe to me what you experienced? Tell me something about the thoughts and the feelings that were arising.

K: Psychologically: clarity, calmness and peacefulness. Physically: Lightness and very relaxed. I think of this as an "afterburn" after trying to stay with this Awareness. It happens quite often. The thoughts that come up during this period is - "wow - this is great!

R: Just enter the Gate.... Kevin, just enter.......

K: Where is it ???? - I'll run right through it! ; ) ---- I know what you're going to say, I'm already through the Gate but I just don't realize it - yet.


Peace,

Kevin

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Ronald
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Re: Why wait any longer... let's start !

Postby Ronald » Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:50 am

Dear Kevin,

Thanks for your answers you are on the edge !!!!!

I’ve been going through the thread and I found this interesting part, let’s work with it…..

(Kevin wrote)
K:There is no me, my personal reference point is just a group of thoughts, my real identity is just pure experience - or rather “what is happening at the present moment”.

(Ronald wrote)
Yes, Kevin ..that’s it!!!….everything that is happening in the moment….nothing personal… There is a doing but no doer..life is living itself…automatically……!!!!......effortlessly !!!!!....isn't that a MIRACLE !!!!
Can you give me a list of examples (min 10) in nature (please go into nature)where it's obvious that there are things happening without an I ?’

For example it’s raining , the rain is falling , but nobody is doing it….isn’t it an absolute miracle!!!!...
….open your heart!...breath through it, you can say it with a loud voice :

"it’s raining and nobody is doing it……..!!!!!! (not to loud be carefull with the I-police ;)!!!!

And please write me a report of what you've experienced during the excercise/meditation.

Let the miracle of existence touch you,


With love,

Ronald

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Kevin49
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Re: Why wait any longer... let's start !

Postby Kevin49 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:30 pm

Thanks Ronald.

This should be an easy exercise since it is raining very hard today. I have a jittery feeling this morning - not sure if it's just fatigue from the weekend. I'll do this exercise throughout the day and report back - also with my list.

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Kevin49
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Re: Why wait any longer... let's start !

Postby Kevin49 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:36 pm

Hi Ronald,

Congrats on your color change to "Red". (This means you helped someone walk throught the gate?)

Here's my list of examples in nature that occur without a "doer".

1. The wind blows - where the answer is my friend ; )
2. Flowers and plants bloom and grow.
3. The sun sets and rises
4. The temperature changes
5. Coulds form
6. The Ocean tides rise and fall
7. Animals are born grow and eventually die
8. Birds sing and migrate
9. Volcanoes erupts
10. Earthquakes happen

The exercise seemed to help keep me away from the thought of being the doer. Felt light, calm and some nervous energy if that makes any sense. I feel I am close as well, but in one of the last books I read it stated that if you "think" you're close, it is your mind tricking you once again. I guess the final step is getting rid of the belief that I'm the "doer" and a separate entity controlling everything and calling all the shots and coming to the final conclusion that I Am simply "what's happening at the present moment".

I brought my daughter to the orthodontists this morning. While waiting for an hour, I read numerous pages of quotes that I have written down over the years from authors and teachers who I seem to resonate with. I've always understood the quotes, but I find that each time I read them, the I "feel" that they bring more meaning.

Hope all is well.

Peace

Kevin


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