Harold Hi Rohit , I believe I have some understanding of "no-self", but am not sure how far along the path I am. Can you help me reflect?
October 2 at 4:29am · Like
Rohit Hi Harold, What expectations do you have from becoming Liberated? what do you expect from this conversation ? LOOK at word "SELF". what does it point to?
October 2 at 8:11am · Like
Harold If I am liberated, I am free from illusion and able to see truth. From this conversation, I expect to understand my level of liberation. When I look at self, I ultimately find only awareness sitting in some sort of void.
October 2 at 9:15am · Like
Rohit "I expect to understand my level of liberation."
What is it that knows whether or not you are liberated?
"When I look at self, I ultimately find only awareness sitting in some sort of void."
What is it that is aware of Awareness? Is it a thought or feeling, or neither? Can it be present without thoughts or feelings? Can thoughts or feelings be present without it? Now look around you and see whether "external" objects can exist without your awareness of them. If they cannot, what does that imply about these objects? What does that imply about you?
October 2 at 10:00am · Like
Harold "What is it that knows whether or not you are liberated?"
I guess ultimately here "liberation" is an experience, and I am looking to see if my experience of liberation is the same that is referred to here.
That which is aware of Awareness is neither thought nor feeling, is present without thoughts or feelings, and thoughts or feelings cannot be present without it. "External" objects cannot exist without my awareness of them. It implies that these objects are a creation, a projection, and all that I experience as matter (including my "self") is also a creation, a projection.
October 2 at 10:15am · Edited · Like
Rohit Answer all the questions I asked.
" I am looking to match my experience to the liberation that is commonly referred to."
what is doing the looking? are you the experiencer?
October 2 at 10:17am · Like
Harold I can see that I am the experiencer and the experience of looking. Did I miss another question?
October 2 at 10:19am · Like
Rohit There's an experience of knowing, there's an experience of typing on a keyboard, and there's an experience of trying to understand what "no self" means. Now, what do they have in common? One thing: they are experiences. An experience does not have to be caused by an experiencer. And there doesn't have to be an experiencer at all. All these experiences exist, but there IS NO EXPERIENCER. The impression that there's an experiencer, is an experience. is it true?
October 2 at 10:23am · Like
Harold Is awareness the experiencer?
October 2 at 10:30am · Like
Rohit is there a separate experiencer living life? Is there anything in your mind or body that you can be sure exists whether or not you are observing it? Is there anything in your mind or body that does not change? Is there anything in your mind or body that you can predict with certainty? Is there anything at all that you can be certain of?
October 2 at 10:40am · Like
Harold I find my awareness observes "life" (sights, sounds, etc) change and flow by. The only thing that seems to exists whether or not I am observing it is awareness, and that does not seem to change. I'm not sure I can predict anything with certainty, and the only thing I can be certain of is what I am experiencing right now.
October 2 at 10:43am · Like
Rohit "my awareness".what does this "my" refer to? Stick to what you can see for sure. Not awareness. The feeling of "awareness" is yet another part of experience, same with the identification with it, same with the self concept.Be honest with yourself and SEE what's really going on?Some thoughts point to real things: computer, desk, body. Other thoughts point to imaginary things: Batman, Santa, self. The thought itself is real, we experience it in reality. But the content of the thought is an image literally, imaginary. When you think of a cup, you have an image of the cup in mind, but you cannot pour tea into it or drink out of it.
October 2 at 10:48am · Like
Harold there seems to be something observing.. this is what i'm referring to as my awareness. what 'it' is, that is observing, i'm not exactly sure.
October 2 at 10:55am · Like
Rohit see if you can find an observer that is observing. If you cannot find one, what does that imply about the observer?
October 2 at 10:56am · Like
Harold I cannot find an observer that is observing, only the experience of observing. This implies there is no observer, only the experience of observing.
October 2 at 11:05am · Like
Rohit yes! now watch your thoughts come, change, and go. Look for the owner of the thoughts. Can you find one? Now watch your feelings and emotions come, change, and go. Look for the owner of the feelings and emotions. Can you find one?
October 2 at 11:06am · Like
Harold T No owner of thoughts or emotions, only the experience of them..
October 2 at 11:09am · Like
Rohit SO, is there a YOU doing anything ? Does anything need a doer to happen?
October 2 at 11:14am · Like
Harold there is a physical "me" that can alter experience and "do" things, but that is temporary and experience continues to happen with or without the input of physical "me". some things may require the physical "me" to do things, like brushing teeth, for example.
October 2 at 11:25am · Like
Rohit Can an object exist in any way other than as the thought of it? If so, how would its existence be verified? How would we know whether something existed in the absence of a thought of it?
October 2 at 11:35am · Like
Harold no, we cannot verify the existence of something without any thought of it
October 2 at 11:37am · Like
Rohit Yes. Say I was thinking about Batman. Does that mean Batman exists? No. But, the thought about Batman exists. Moreover, Batman relates to a man wearing a suit. It is tangible, even if it doesn't exist. It's something you can visualize. can you say the same thing about "I"? It's just this concept that has absolutely no basis in reality.
will be back later smile
October 2 at 12:11pm · Like
Rohit how is it going?
October 3 at 9:12am via mobile · Like
Harold am waiting for more questions. Last night I had an experience of pure experience, and was able to watch my body move as if on it's own. Mind was silent. This lasted about 15 or so minutes, then I seem to be "back" in my body. Is this related at all?
October 3 at 10:19am · Like
Rohit what is experiencing this experience?
October 3 at 10:50am via mobile · Like
Harold nothing, just emptiness, void
October 3 at 10:52am · Like
Rohit is that emptiness YOU?
October 3 at 10:56am via mobile · Like
Harold no, it does not have a personal discrete element to it
October 3 at 10:58am · Like
Rohit do you exist?
October 3 at 11:01am via mobile · Like
Harold as you said with batman, if i think of batman, the thought of batman exists. when i think or do, something comes into existence. but there is no particular evidence that i exist.
October 3 at 11:04am · Like
Rohit What comes up. When you say" I dont exist"? What are the emotions? What is typing this?
October 3 at 11:12am via mobile · Like
Harold i will examine this tonight and write more later
October 3 at 11:19am · Like
Rohit ok smile
October 3 at 11:29am via mobile · Like
Harold I think I understand. Initially, fear/friction came up, then confusion, then uncertainty, then peace and freedom. Then understanding. A physical manifestation of "me"/the formless is typing this.
October 4 at 8:03am via mobile · Like
Rohit what does this mean to the rest of your life? What does "me" refer to now?
October 4 at 8:31am via mobile · Like
Harold it means complete acceptance of every moment. "me" now refers to the the manifestation of various egos, or constructs of "self".
October 4 at 11:04am · Like
Rohit so, Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way,
shape or form? Was there ever? how about
self, is there anything that is separate from
October 4 at 11:26am via mobile · Like
Harold There is only existence, form, experience, in every way, shape, and form. I don't know if there ever was, but this is what it is now. All form is self.
October 5 at 1:27pm via mobile · Like
Rohit Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it
October 5 at 1:49pm via mobile · Like
Harold Will explain when time permits
October 6 at 9:45am via mobile · Like
October 8 at 3:00pm · Like
Harold hi Rohit . The illusion of separate self begins when consciousness enters form, when unmanifest becomes manifest, when unborn becomes born. Some examples of separate self illusion are the notions of relationships (brother, son, boyfriend), nation-states (United States, India, China), and religion (Buddhist, Christianity, Jewish). Even physical notions of "male", "asian", "human" create an identity around 'self'. All create illusion of a 'self' relationship vs 'other'. As 'self' develops more and more identity through the notion of these illusory constructs, separation necessarily occurs. The more 'self' there is, there more 'non-self' there is. The illusion separates 'self' from 'non-self' by creating identity around 'self'.
Wednesday at 10:47am · Like
Rohit "As 'self' develops more and more identity through the notion of these illusory constructs, separation necessarily occurs. The more 'self' there is, there more 'non-self' there is. The illusion separates 'self' from 'non-self' by creating identity around 'self'." can you elaborate this?
Wednesday at 3:25pm · Like
Harold The illusion of 'self' gains momentum by developing self-identity. For example, the identity of an American, or an Indian, etc. When an identity is assumed, it necessarily creates Non-Americans, Non-Indians, etc. A non-American cannot exist unless first there is an American. A non-Indian cannot exist unless first there is an Indian. A non-believer cannot exist unless there is first a believer. This creates separation between self and non-self, which is ultimately an illusion because the self-identity is simply a conceptual construct.
Yesterday at 4:04am · Like
Rohit how does it feel to see this? Describe in detail.
Yesterday at 7:49am via mobile · Like
Harold the more detail I use to describe it, the further it will be from what I feel.
Put simply, I feel liberated.
Yesterday at 8:15am · Like
Rohit How would you describe it to somebody
who has never heard about this illusion but is
curious about it.
Yesterday at 8:42am via mobile · Like
Harold I would describe it as freeing, expansive, a deep sense of presence, of being one with the movement of life as it expresses itself in any given moment. A sense of surrender, but being completely supported. A sense of flow and floating along the current of existence. A curiosity and wonder at the most beautiful things as well as the most ugly things. A deep inner peace and knowing that all is ok.
Yesterday at 9:48am via mobile · Like
Rohit What was the last bit that pushed you over,
made you look? was there a specific moment
when seeing happened or was it gradual?
what exactly happened?
Yesterday at 9:59am via mobile · Like
Harold My last piece of self was the notion of observer. The moment I recognized observing was an experience in of itself, my mind went silent, and I felt the experience of my body moving independently of 'me'. At first I was unsure if that was the 'gate crash', but the understanding deepened over time. Now there is only the unfolding of life itself, though I can reenter the illusion at any time.
Yesterday at 10:21am via mobile · Like
Rohit Will get back to you later.
Yesterday at 10:27am via mobile · Like
Rohit Harold, what notices that the observer is an experience ?
Yesterday at 4:02pm · Like
Harold It seemed that the observer noticed itself was an experience, there was a kind of self-reflection that resulted in self-illumination.
19 hours ago · Like
Rohit There doesn't have to be an experiencer, for there to be an experience. Look at it. Test it. Why do you assume there has to be an experiencer?
18 hours ago · Like
Harold Yes, that is what I have found. There is no experiencer, only the experience. The 'observer' was the last remnant of 'experiencer'.
18 hours ago · Unlike · 2
Rohit Cool. I'm going to have some other guides check our conversation. I will get back to you tomorrow. If you have anything else you want to write, feel free!
19 hours ago · Like
Harold Please do, thanks Rohit.
19 hours ago · Unlike · 1
This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
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