Rohit and Neil

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Rohit and Neil

Postby Rohit » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:44 am

Nick Hi Neil, welcome to LU. please introduce yourself.
September 6 at 7:52am · Like · 1

Neil Hi Nick. I've been using the App, and inquiring in to 'self' for a few months, and before that seeking for about 10 years. I seem to be making a lot of progress, but cannot seem to understand why I can't 'break through'. I prefer to do something real time. Perhaps it's just a matter of time, and part of the process, but i'm a no BS person when it comes to this and want to quickest most direct path. I would like some serious help. Thanks for the invitation.
September 6 at 8:11am · Like

Neil To add, specifically Nick, I maybe am not getting what looking is. Sometimes I spend looking for the "I" behind <whatever>, or is there a me behind "me". Other times I just spend being still (whether being physically still, or in motion) observing. Both processes lead me in to further deconstruction, or moments of stillness. I have seen that the "self" label including I, me, my name, mine (posession) all apply to a conglomerate of certain sensations and perceptions that are constantly and similarly labelled, and are etched in consciousness. So I get that there is momentum.
Life has gotten smoother, more fluid and flowing, the mind is so much quieter, and even had an evening recently where I centered in the knowing that all that arises are just perceptions, are just experiences, including the body-mind complex as being experienced/perceived. nevertheless, permanency seems to allude me.
September 6 at 8:31am · Like

Rohit Hi neil .I will be working with you. write down some of your expectations ?what do you expect from this conversation ?when i say "there is no you and never was " what comes up ?any fear ,joy ,peace ....write down everything .be honest .you can stop all your spiritual practices ,reading books until this conversation is over .what does the word "I" point to ?does it point to something real ?
September 6 at 10:15am via mobile · Like · 1

Neil Hey Rohit - Thanks :) I've been reading the forums so I pretty much know how this works - correct me if I am wrong though.
I want to wake up. I expect my experience to become much more flowing, but even beyond that I want a permanent centering in the knowing and clear seeing of all things as One, or whatever it really is if that's not it. Since I've been working on this, I've been clearing away all ,y expectations and dropping them as they come. My main goal is to realize no-self, and my main expectation really is to know that I've realized it. From then, I want to get deeper in to understanding reality and Truth and deepening my Awakening and relationship with what is at deeper and deeper levels.
The response to that is calm, a bit of tightness in my stomach and chest area, and a return to the process I was just in before on my 1 hour meditation walk... just experiencing, and categorizing experience as seeing, hearing, sensing, perception, thinking. Doing this there seems to be an uninterrupted flow of just experience. Even the perception that was previously labelled self or me or I is now just seen as just that, a perception which is just an experience that is flowing.
This has been my main spiritual practice for over a week now. I do sitting meditation 2 times a day and am afraid I can't stop that, but meditation includes similar inquiry as what is done in the forums such as 'searching for me behind the "me"' and 'simply looking', as well as Just Sitting (stillness, silence, whatever). I'm really done other seeking, and this is my 1 pointed goal right now.
The I used to point to something which included sensations, specifically directed in the body, mostly torso, chest, head, stomach areas, a sense of aliveness, and other perceptions, memories, stories. These change all the time. At the moment there is nothing substantial that "I" points to, except that it triggers a slight knot in my stomach. This has been part of the "I" trigger for a while now, but my experience now is much clean and clearer especially after my walk.
The "I" itself points to other sensations and perceptions that are I guess more real than what the "I" claims to be, a 'self'. So the "I" points to itself and has solidified and etched itself in consciosness so that it seemed more 'real'. At the moment that "I" doesn't point to anything real but silence and a slight discomfort in the stomach area.
Pleasure to work with you!
September 6 at 10:26am · Like

Rohit Ok .lets do this step by step .LOOK at the sensation that is arising ?bring it closer .what is its source ?how is it triggered ? Can you find a doer doing this sensations ?
September 6 at 10:35am via mobile · Like

Neil Hi Rohit. Do you mean experience arising, as in seeing, hearing, sensing... as in any sensation that arises. Are we investigating a specific sensation or just anything that arises? just clarify and I can begin.
September 6 at 10:47am · Like

Rohit When you say there are sensations in your stomach and other parts of the body .look at them .what is its source ?are you doing them ?how are they triggered ?is there a doer doing it ?
September 6 at 10:53am via mobile · Like

Rohit Will be back in an hour or so .i am in india .gmt+5.30
September 6 at 10:54am via mobile · Like

Neil In general the source of sensations are nothing, as in they just seem to arise and cease in to nowhere. Certain sensations are apparent and have been apparent for this last month especially specifically the sensation in my stomach, and sensations of tightness and loosening in the head/inner ear areas (much like your ears popping when coming down in a plane or high mountain). These sensations seem to stick around for much longer and as such it is hard to see their source because when you observe them they seem to remain sometimes for hours. The head sensations and stomach sensations seem to be around specifically when I am digging deeper. The stomach sensation is particularly uncomfortable, and I find sometimes I resist it, but I am doing my best to just give it space. The head sensations seem like my head is changing shape and it's about to pop - it feels wierd but nice. I don't want to over-analyze but it seems as if these are signs that I am hitting upon something.

These sensations sometimes arise on their own, and sometimes are trigger by investigation, certain questions. Your comment "you don't exist and never existed at all" and ones similar seem to trigger the stomach sensation. I don't seem to be doing the sensations, but sometimes it seems certain things that I do, such as asking questions, or meditating deeper, effect and change the sensations. I don't know the exact causal relationship, but there seems to be some relationship between my reaction/action and the sensation arising/changing. So to answer shortly, I am definitely not doing them, because they can arise even if I am not doing anything specific, but their sense can be shifted by certain triggering questions and inquiries and actions.
September 6 at 11:06am · Like

Neil Sure no problem - appreciate the conversation.
September 6 at 11:06am · Like

Rohit Yes ,sensations exist but LOOK is sensation a real object ? Not its content .what is sensation ?if sensation is not a real object....what is it ?dont distract yourself by conceptualizing .look at things the way they are .
September 6 at 12:55pm via mobile · Like

Neil When you say 'real object' if you mean is it a thing, then no it's not. Sensations are just experience shifting and changing. It's constantly changing. Even the ones, such as the stomach sensations that stay around for a long time are constantly shifting. Some are definitely more stick than others though.
So when I just sit and feel the sensation it is just that, something felt that is always changing. An experiencing.
September 6 at 1:02pm · Like

Neil Rohit I have to get off the comp now. I will reply to this post as soon as I can tomorrow. I will also look deeper in to any arising sensation/experience as it is without labeling/conceptualization. Thanks, talk soon.
September 6 at 1:18pm · Like

Rohit Is there an experiencer experiencing experience ? .now ,LOOK at your thoughts ?do you control thoughts ?can you start /stop/pause thoughts ?can you find a thinker doing thoughts ?
September 6 at 1:25pm via mobile · Like

Neil Hey Rohit,
No, the question creates the arising of more experience that was previously believed to be part of the 'self', such as body-mind-perceptions. there is just a shifting experience.
It seems that I can start thinking, but that is only because there was something that led to a decision to think and then reflect on it. it seems to be like co-dependent arising. there is still some conviction that some thoughts just arise out of nowhere, and other thoughts can be thought. but when i search for a thinker there is none, just more experience. i guess this conviction/belief that some thoughts can be conscious is just that - an assumption/belief that was never questioned.
i cannot find a thinker doing thoughts, no.
September 7 at 1:05am · Like

Rohit see if you can really control thoughts in anyway ?how are thoughts triggered ?from where do thoughts originate ,can you find a source ?the doubt "i can think " ,what is it ?is it just another thought ?
September 7 at 5:36am via mobile · Like

Neil Well after I read this... I seem to be able to think 'I can think, I can think, thinking thinking thinking'. This seems to be ingrained. I seem to think that I can control a conscious thought. But it seems that the only reason I assert "I can think" is after the question of whether conscious thought is possible. So it seems that I'm not really controlling thought - but it arises after some other thought/question.
Other thoughts just seem to arise out of nowhere. Thoughts seem to be triggered by observing things... like looking at a chair -then, 'oh it's a chair'. Thoughts have no source that I can find.
"I can think" is just another thought. I cannot find a thinker, but the belief that "some thoughts can be created out of nothing" seems to be sticking...
September 7 at 8:00am · Like

Neil I get that the answer to arrive here is to conclude "thoughts cannot be controlled", but somehow I cannot experientially 'finally get that'. I will look deeper in to this.
September 7 at 8:06am · Like

Rohit Don't agree instead question each and everything .if there is no THINKER ,what is controlling thoughts ?this is self contradictory .either you control thoughts or you dont .its really that simple .yo cannot have it both ways .either you are flying the plane or you are not .is there somekind of autopilot mechanism that kicks in as soon as you stop controlling thoughts ?lets do a small experiment :ready ? not think of an APPLE .do not let the image of an APPLE appear in your mind ,go on....keep going...resist it .so ,what was it ?
September 7 at 9:05am via mobile · Like

Neil Hi Rohit,
Thanks for really being forceful on this one. I contemplated this for the last hour.
There is no thinker, but I still cannot fully and with full conviction say that thought cannot be controlled. I am much less convinced, and cannot say that I can control thoughts, because upon reflection there only seems to be an intention behind certain thoughts, and other thoughts that just come out of nowhere.
And maybe I am wrong here, but it can't be that black and white can it? I know you are trying to help, and I am not trying to aruge for the sake of it, but I am just expressing my own feelings and thoughts. But then, all of these are really thoughts, so really what I am left with when really contemplating it is silence. I cannot however say "I cannot control thoughts".
Can you help me out here?
September 7 at 9:48am · Like

Neil and in direct response to your question, sometimes thoughts come from nowhere, other times they seem to follow an intention, but i suppose that they also come out of nowhere, but just SEEM to follow after an intention. So the intention+thinking make it appear that there is choice in thinking. This is less and less convincing though.
September 7 at 9:49am · Like

Rohit See. the reason for memory recall is due to a stimulus of some kind ,sometime they even appear to arise in our minds for no reason we perceive .either case ,there does not need to be a thinker behind thinking ,it just occurs anyway .there is no ownership of memories or experience that was just experienced .from the last experiment we did ,it has already been proved that :well ,it tells us in no uncertain terms that the brain is wired to respond to external stimulus with thought .there cannot be any control over this process ,we have just demonstrated that no matter how hard the attempt to suppress thought it cannot be accomplished .the stimulus triggered the thought and this process is completely independent of intervention .try and stop the thoughts of the mind right now .see if a minute can pass without thinking occuring .maybe if you practice meditation ,you know the noise that comes from thought is difficult to switch off.....there is just no off switch .SEE .what i mean to say is this :yes ,thought are directed...sure but is it YOU directing it ?if yes ,how do YOU that ?
September 7 at 12:00pm via mobile · Like

Neil Yes Rohit, I do see that there is a direction, which is followed by thought which then is assumed to be me controlling thought. But I can't direct the directing. It just arises also as a response ... it is on automatic it seems and there seem to be a little resistance to this idea, but it is becoming clear.
September 8 at 2:52am via mobile · Like

Neil And no there is no me directing it, there is only a thought that claims to. It seems it is just a chain of reactions, the harder I look that is all I see
September 8 at 2:54am via mobile · Like

Rohit Too logical. You are looking for a cause for every effect. Do you see how that would be an infinitely long process? You are making this way too complicated. Stop avoiding this. Look at the thoughts. It's "thoughts about stuff". Thoughts are real. Look at them. The content of thought is not. "There is resistance" is a thought. "I can't direct the directing" is a thought."it is becoming clear." is a thought ."And no there is no me directing it, there is only a thought that claims to." is a thought ."It seems it is just a chain of reactions, the harder I look that is all I see" is a thought ."elephant's fly " is a thought . Look at the generation of thoughts, examine it thoroughly. See if that process is really happening without an "I" doing it.There are thoughts, but they aren't 'yours'? Do you really know what i mean here?Why do you think theres confusion here?
Thoughts are thoughts, but not 'yours'.You have to realise I can't do the work for you.
September 8 at 8:52am · Like

Neil Hahah, you've totally disarmed me - awesome! All I can do is laugh, and yeah they are all just thoughts, hahha, all of them. I get it now... I was just believing thoughts, taking some to be more 'accurate' than others. Also I was checking the validity of thoughts, and checking the validity of reality, with other thoughts... hahahaha!
And yes, they are not mine, because "i, me, mine" are just thoughts, and thoughts cannot own other thoughts or create them.
I think the confusion was I was trying to find a satisfactory intellectual conclusion, but that would mean believing a ... THOUGHT!!!!
This is brilliant!!!! I'm so tickled!!!
September 8 at 9:22am · Like

Rohit I want you to have a particular thought—the thought of “I” or “me.
Really experience this “I.”
Does it have the quality of something real or is it just another thought ?LOOK .
September 8 at 9:27am · Like

Neil The thought itself does not have any particular quality, it is just a thought. It does trigger other perceptions, sensations and thoughts. Usually an area in the body, a visual image, a sense of aliveness/presence. I've been focusing on the "I" thought for a while, for much of today. The "I" itself has no real substance, just triggers habitually looked at other stuff.
September 8 at 9:35am · Like

Rohit do you control breathing ?do you control heart beating ?do you control hearing ?do you control seeing ?do you control digestion ?do you control thoughts ? feelings ? sensations ? emotions ?do you control anything ? SEE what is true ?
you will never find an apple or anything else in your mind , just thought about these things .SEE what is really true ?
September 8 at 9:39am · Like

Neil things just happen. including thoughts about them and including thoughts about a "me" controlling "X". there is doubt, but ...... it's just a THOUGHT!!! hahahahha my family is asking why i'm laughing so much!
September 8 at 9:59am · Like

Rohit hehe...ok .so ,is there a "you " controlling anything ?what lives life ?is there a "YOU" ?
September 8 at 10:08am · Like

Neil no life is just moving, living, appearing, hard to exactly put words to it. there is just experiencing of experience. there is no me.
September 8 at 10:16am · Like

Rohit LOOK!!
so, WHAT is doing all this looking?
September 8 at 10:19am · Like

Neil there is nothing doing the looking, or experiencing. there is just shifting experiences.
September 8 at 10:20am · Like

Notice your breathing .how is it happening ?anything influencing it ?
GO for a walk in nature .LOOK how things are flowing ?
is there a so-called doer to do anything ?
September 8 at 10:23am · Like

Neil I don't have a chance to go for a walk, but I did go for a long one today, and for the last month, everyday.
Breathing just happens. There is nothing influence it. The more I focus on breath just breathing I am aware of an intense aliveness and flow, yes.
no, there is no doer, just this flowingness.
September 8 at 10:41am · Like

Rohit so ,do you exist ?
September 8 at 10:43am · Like

Neil smile, and silence.
September 8 at 10:44am · Like

Neil ticklishness... slight giggle, no.
September 8 at 10:44am · Like

Rohit When you type out "there is No me,." - what is happening?
What is typing that? When that statement is made "I do not exist", what comes up?Describe the emotion. What does that mean to the rest of "your" life?
September 8 at 10:46am · Like

Neil > there is no me <
tiniest tension, feelings of ease and relief. deep sigH.
> I do not exist <
really not much emotion at all. things are just very still.
i have no idea, typing is just happening.
the rest of my life is really just a thought, and i don't feel like thinking about any aspects of "my" life right now, but i know when I need to think I will, as in thoughts will just happen and deal with the situation.
I am also excited that life can just flow now and I can fall deeper in to the Truth.
There is a little doubt, but.... that's just a thought.
feel disarmed.
slight anxiousness in the gut. mostly still.
September 8 at 10:51am · Edited · Like

Rohit SEE .There is a sense of self, a feeling, a thought, an idea... and when that is operating, it feels like being caught up in the movement.
And then, there is a movement to see the truth that there is not an ACTUAL self. And it's recognized again that it is a thought, a feeling, an idea. That's all.
It's always true that there is no-self. No I. It may not always FEEL like it. But it IS always true. And real.
Because something that is true can't ever be untrue."I" is not going to "go away" causing everything to cease existing. "I" has never existed, and everything else ALREADY exists on its own without caring. Any questions for me ?
September 8 at 10:54am · Like

Neil yes, these things like sense of self, thought, idea, tension, arises together and that feels like flow has 'stopped', but there is almost an immediate recognition that "oh, more stuff arising"... and that eases and makes it flow more. This is getting more automatic now because I've been seeing it more and more everyday. It's even more apparent today when you did the 'they are all just thoughts'. I never really knew how deep thoughts run and how deeply they are believed.
there is still tense areas in the body though, but moments of flow and ease are much more common.
September 8 at 10:57am · Like

Neil ^ I realize that is a story, and another thought, but i'm doing my best to articulate the reactions and what is experienced
September 8 at 10:58am · Like

Rohit Good .enough for today .keep looking now .come back tomorrow and write more .is that ok ?
September 8 at 11:00am · Like

Neil That is perfect. Thank you so much. You are great at disarming and making things deadly simple. I am going to just simply look, and let go. Thoughts are just thoughts.
September 8 at 11:01am · Like

Neil And yes, I will write tomorrow after a good look. Night.
September 8 at 11:04am · Like

Rohit ok .good night .
September 8 at 11:06am · Like

Neil Hi Rohit. Hope you're well.
I'm back, and I did a lot of looking today. I realized deeper levels of seeing, or better yet, Just seeing, plain and simple. It was really intense, but dreadfully simple. I don't know if that makes sense.
I am not even sure what I am doing back or where to go from here, especially since whenever I check there is noone that is doing or going anywhere! lol!
I guess I just want to take this process deeper, as it has been going so far.
September 9 at 12:17pm · Like

Neil Am going to bed - will write tomorrow to see if you around. Be well.
September 9 at 12:54pm · Like

Rohit You say "i did a lot of looking today" ,so what is doing the looking ? .you say "whenever i check i find..." ,what is doing the checking ?
September 9 at 6:49pm via mobile · Like

Neil This was clearer yesterday, but there is such bumpiness, and "getting caught up in movement", discomfort, and unsettledness. Feels like a mixing of many substances swirling around. The question of who is doing or checking leads back in to this muddledness, discomfort, and struggle. Like a deep clinging to something. Any comments? I need to go for a walk and i'll continue to just look and let.
September 9 at 11:41pm · Like

Rohit Why is there a confusion ?if there is no you what is confused ?what are you searching for ?
September 10 at 9:18am via mobile · Like

Neil J I don't know why I am confused... I had a few moments today of completely loosing any sense of self or discomfort, and there was a complete opening to flow. In those moments there was only flow. Those openings close, and there is discomfort and confusion, a restlessness. I guess maybe I am searching for it to be like that all the time. I feel a little silly even saying anything because I feel like I should have gotten it or that it should have sunk in and also that you'll probably take all the "I" comments I made and ask me if there is anyone behind it.. lol. I feel that the process is incomplete, and I realize that there are all thoughts, but even that doesn't bring a peace. there is still a sense there is more to do.
September 10 at 9:35am · Like

Rohit If there is no you ,what is experiencing this ?
September 10 at 9:48am via mobile · Like

Neil I don't know but I hope it fucking hurries up and resolves itself, because it's really annoying!! haha - But seriously, I just spent the last few minutes looking, and there is nothing or noone experiencing it, it is just stubbornly arising and arising and arising and arising and arising and begging for resolution. some laughter, and some pure burning urge to resolve itself.
September 10 at 10:06am · Like

Rohit There is something .You dont see it though ,because you are not looking for it .you are looking for the self and coming up empty because it is not there .what is there is reality .there are thoughts about you ,what you THINK you are like .who you THINK you are ,but where is that self ?it is not in thought .thoughts are just thoughts .they are not selves .there is no self .it does not and the thought is obscuring you from seeing reality as it is .take a deep LOOK at the illusion .ask yourself is it true ?
September 10 at 11:20am via mobile · Like

Neil Thanks again Rohit, I really am trying my best, and also trying my best not to try, and whatever else that is in between that, including asking myself who is trying!
Okay, yes, I have been searching for the self, as I thought that was a part of this inquiry, but there is nothing there, and I'm seeing the uselessness of searching for something that isn't there. It simply isn't there.
In terms of reality, I seem to have glimpses of it, and other times there is just frustration, and now there is just frustration.
i'm not even sure what illusion there is to look at, or how to exactly look at reality. I don't even know the difference between what is reality and illusion. Today since morning there is a sense of flow and aliveness in the background of everything, and if that's reality, well... it's not setting me free, even though there is no me to set free. And I'm not trying to be difficult at all, but I'm just coming from the immense "i wanna bash my head in" frustration I feel.
I get the sense that life is just life-ing, but it's just a sense, not a complete immersion in it, and that is also just a parrot from stuff I've read on the App. It's not that I don't experience life living and flowing, but there is also the constant discomfort, frustration and a sense of a need to do more, change what is, whats next, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.
And again... what am I looking at that is an illusion? Is it the thoughts that keep coming up. I get that they are just thoughts (or maybe I don't at a profound level). Is it the discomfort and uneasiness and frustration? Well I guess in a sense those are just labels on experience, so in essence it isn't true either.
Still have absolutely no idea what to do, feel completely lost. All I have to go on is just surrendering.
September 11 at 1:28am · Like

Rohit All experience is going around, doing it's thing: feelings being feelings, thinking being thinking, actions being actions, assumptions being annoying, and they're all doing this without a you, down below, controlling them. So really, there's no down below, just look at the surface of these things, which is all that's real of them, and see if it's really possible that they are really going on without a you. Stop thinking about the implications of what's going to happen when you realize this, and just realize it. STOP IT. STOP THINKING ABOUT WHAT'S GOING TO CHANGE, AND START LOOKING AT WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON. Find out if there's really a you, separate from the experience, observing the sentences, or just sentences poping up as experience. One of these is more true than the other, one of these fits reality better. Which one?
September 11 at 7:55am · Like

Neil Hi Rohit, I spent hours on this today, literally.
Regardless, I'll speak from Now.
In terms of finding a me that is separate from the experience, I can find none, but there are constant 'hickups' that seem to take me out of the Now.
The things that were labelled 'self' before, and sort of still are, as well as the 'sense of self' and thoughts about it are springing in to my consciousness over and over. Today, as yesterday has been a day of turmoil, and frustration. I did my best not to anticipate, hope and think about what's going to change, and I even tried to just allow them to be, and also tried to see that there was no me separate from them. At the end of the day, now, I feel a lot calmer and clearer, but I am still caught up in the movement.
It is almost as if I want to be separate from the movement because it is so damn frustrating. Perhaps in the past I have used 'being a wtiness' as a strategy to disengage from uncomfortable sensations and thoughts, and perhaps this is still unconsciously in play.When I just look at what's going on with no effort to do anything, there is a stillness and a flow, yet a constant re-assertion and hickup-ing. So even though I cannot find a me separate from experience this habit reasserts itself with total dominance. I've tried every strategy that we have talked about here, but to no avail, including just allowing it all to be.
So it certainly feels like there is a me, suffering, and being banged around, and who wants it to stop. This is disheartening as I've felt such 'progress' was made with all of this work, including many moments and experiences of clarity and seeing
I wish I could just write that "yes, latter is true, experience is just popping up as experience". It certainly is true, but it takes a lot actual effort to 'hold myself there' or to focus on that. Previously this was effortless. As soon as I stop making effort, the mind comes in again and i'm crashing along with the waves, even though when I check there is just nothing.
I am doing my best, including just seeing thoughts, sensations, and whatever experience as just that, experiences, and seeing over and over again that there is no separate 'me' experiencing. There seems to be some stubbornness to this arising that I can't seem to come to terms with. Intellectually I seem to get all of this, and have experienced this flow experientially as well, but it does not stick.
September 12 at 9:54am · Like

Rohit Say I had thoughts about batman ,does that mean batman exists ?nope but thoughts about batman exist .there is an image of batman with black suit .they are feelings and sensations ,they are visualised .does that make batman real? Is it the same for I ? SEE ,mind won't disappear .you still THINK yourself as the doer ?look is it really true? Ask yourself what is holding me back ?keep asking
September 12 at 10:14am via mobile · Like

Neil Okay, I will keep asking on this. But a quick question. What do you mean by "do you still think yourself as the doer?". Do you mean do I believe that I am the one doing this work, process, inquiry? As in I have control over this?
September 12 at 10:26am · Like

Neil Also, is it beneficial to keep the conversation going on more often, or is it better to take a day and let your questions sink in (which i've been doing so far)?
September 12 at 10:31am · Like

Rohit Yes .see everything is just happening .what are you afraid will happen if there is no you? Any expectations ?
September 12 at 10:35am via mobile · Like

Rohit see everything is just happening .what are you afraid will happen if there is no you? Any expectations ?dont worry ,i am here to help you .honestly it wont take even seconds to see what is true .
September 12 at 10:39am via mobile · Like

Neil Well I have had many moments where I ahve seen this, including a few after you have pointed it to me. As soon as I do mind rushes back in like it is drowning.
There has been fear, fear that I won't be able to interact, fear that I will die, etc etc... all of that. I really don't care about all of that. There is also the opposite, a desperate love of loosing myself knowing that the "I" is the cause of all this misery.
Well, the expectation, the basic one is that there will be no more suffering, as in, no more struggling with What-is, just a resting in to it... regardless of it is painful, or peaceful. There are other expectations for Awakening and such, but I've kept them aside.
September 12 at 10:39am · Like

Rohit dont worry ,i am here to help you .honestly it wont take even seconds to see what is true .
September 12 at 10:40am via mobile · Like

Neil I am totally appreciative of you being here, trust me... so appreciative.
September 12 at 10:41am · Like

Rohit Hehe...maybe we are typing simulatneously
September 12 at 10:41am via mobile · Like

Neil hahaha why do you keep repeatin youreslf, your freaking me out
September 12 at 10:41am · Like

Neil I am ready... maybe I need to think on this 'what is holding me back?', and I think I do think I am the doer, still thinking there is something I can do to see this Truth that is closer than my fucking nose... lol
September 12 at 10:42am · Like

Neil I have not been able to do anything else, for almost 2 weeks now
September 12 at 10:42am · Like

Neil all focused on this, nothing else... eating, sleeping, and this!
September 12 at 10:42am · Like

Rohit Hehe .use your frustration to see what is true? Burn to see what actually is true ? You have all the information ,just do it .
September 12 at 10:46am via mobile · Like

Neil YES!!!! that sounds Right! OKAY! I will
September 12 at 10:47am · Like

Rohit Yup .take your time .will be waiting
September 12 at 10:51am via mobile · Like

Neil All I get is this Itch, this restlessness, this impulse, it makes me wanna squirm, laugh, and move away from the present, but I am just staying absolutely still, with it, and diving in to it. Going deeper in to it takes me to deeper levels of stillness. That is what has been happening so farSeptember 12 at 11:21am · Like

Rohit Different levels of stillness or different states of mind may be there ,but are you doing it?
September 12 at 11:26am via mobile · Like

Neil they arise because of focus on that impulse, and not trying to change it, but these are all assumptions. but there is still a sense of doing the focusing on the impulse... fukfukfuk
September 12 at 11:36am · Like

Rohit There is an experience of knowing ,there is an experience of typing on keyboard and there is an experience of trying to understand what "no self" means .there are all experiences .Now what do they have in common? One thing: they are experiences .An experience does not have to ba caused by an experiencer .And there does not have to be an experiencer at all .All these experiences exist ,but is there an EXPERIENCER ?
September 12 at 11:40am via mobile · Like

Rohit Come on dude ,I cannot spoon feed you .if that would have been possible ,you would have been done by now .rest is your work ? Question each and everything ,dont accept anything .
September 12 at 11:44am via mobile · Like

Neil well if there was an experiencer, then it would be experienced, and it would be just that, an experience. so no experiencer.
September 12 at 11:45am · Like

Neil no im not asking for spoonfeeding, I am just reporting back really, because I have no result. And yes I am doing a lot of work as I have said before.
September 12 at 11:46am · Like

Rohit You are still guessing .LOOK ,THERE IS NO YOU ,IS IT TRUE ? IS IT TRUE ?LOOK IS IT TRUE ?
September 12 at 11:48am via mobile · Like

Neil Ok, I will keep at it. I think I'm done on the laptop for tonight, I'll lay with this for as long as I can, then bed, it's past 2am
September 12 at 11:49am · Like

Rohit No issues .you are over analyzing things .see things the way they are .it is very simple .do not make it complicated .
September 12 at 11:54am via mobile · Like

Rohit Good night :) i want your next post to be a revelation .dont let me down .
September 12 at 11:55am via mobile · Like

Neil hahahah omg... simple? !@#!!$! let's hope it is. night man.
September 12 at 11:57am · Like

Neil Are you around dude? Whatever this is, you have to test it, and question it
Thursday at 11:06am · Like

Rohit Yep .how is it going? Are you through?
Thursday at 11:26am via mobile · Like

Neil It's going. I'm not even sure what to write. I have no idea. I think so - lol, i've experienced this before though, and it didn't last
Thursday at 11:34am · Like

Neil there was no seeker, and no doubt, then a sense of control or wanting to control came back and it was a mix of terror and anxiety and i just stayed with it
Thursday at 11:36am · Like

Rohit Does it really matter if any experience lasts or not? Is there a YOU experiencing it ?
Thursday at 11:58am via mobile · Like

Neil Well, not really, but it matters that I wake up the next day and have to come on here and go through this process because I believe there is something missing!
YOU is just a thought, and it can't experience anything. there is just a simple experiencing. nothing flashy. no observer or experiencer, that is just a thought/concept/idea. things just seem to Be, or Are. There seems no central desire to change or do anything, except check, and even that is not arising centrally, if that makes sense.
Thursday at 12:01pm · Like

Neil In the middle is just an expanding sort of empty aliveness... to use cliche terms...
Thursday at 12:03pm · Like

Neil there is definitely a doubt, a distrust, a is-thisreally-it? but it's not centrally held either
Thursday at 12:08pm · Like

Neil oh and... i feel free, but i also feel like throwing up all over this forum...
Thursday at 12:10pm · Like

Rohit If there is no you ,it does not matter if there is a doubt or a fear, isn't it ? Any questions for me ?
Thursday at 12:11pm via mobile · Like

Neil yeah, the doubt and fear are arising out of habit i guess, and the nausea is probably just the body getting used to the idea, or the absence of the constant physical-holding of the idea.
hmm... nothing that is central. aren't you supposed to ask me more questions though? lol
Thursday at 12:14pm · Like

Rohit There are many questions i would like to ask you, but first honestly tell me do you have any doubts ?
Thursday at 12:19pm via mobile · Like

Neil the only thing nagging me since this happened, is whether I will slip back in to "I" like I did last time. As in, will the center become something-focused, as in, is it a process that the brain/body need to go through, and perhaps, it may be one of in and out. This is what happened to me before I came on Facebook.
Thursday at 12:23pm · Like

Neil If it is a process of in-and-out, then funnily enough, then that's fine (can't believe I am saying that), but i wonder why I took so long for this to stick, and if it will indeed stick this time.
Thursday at 12:24pm · Like

Rohit What do you mean by in and out? See,you dnt need to remember No I, because it is not a belief? See there is a sense of I, a feeling ,a thought, an idea....and when that is operating, it feels like being caught up in the movement .and then, there is a movement to see the truth that there is not an ACTUAL self .it is recognized again that it is a thought, a feeling ,an idea .that is all .it is always true that there is no i. It may not always feel like it .but is always true and real .
Thursday at 12:45pm via mobile · Like · 1

Neil Well, the fact that this happened before (center vanished, and no doubt about no-self), and I snapped out of it in the morning, and then we began this 'journey' tgether. anyway. It's super late, I have to get to bed, I will catch up with you tomorrow and take it from there. Thanks.
Thursday at 12:51pm · Like

Rohit Yep..good night :)
Thursday at 12:55pm via mobile · Like

Neil Hey Rohit, what's next? :)
Friday at 4:41am · Like

Rohit Do you exist ?
Friday at 6:46am via mobile · Like · 1

Neil the question doesn't really mean much anymore, as existence is just a concept. 'you', or 'me' or 'I' or 'Neil' are just labels, concepts, all just thoughts, all of it.
Friday at 8:52am · Like

Neil Also, to iterate more on the non verbal response to the question. There is a charge, and some thoughts, but usually just silence. It kinda just crumbles.
Friday at 8:56am · Like

Rohit D So, what lives life?
Friday at 8:57am via mobile · Like

Neil stuff really just happens. sometimes that happening is labelled in different ways, and the experience of life changes. things are not very different to how it was before, but there is no real core anymore, and if there is it's just a charge, a movement, or a thought, and it dissapears.
really, i am not sure what lives life, it really just happens, im not even sure that question is relevant, but perhaps i am mistaken. sometimes there are still assumptions of a doer and sometimes there is just an empty-aliveness at the 'core', but i can't pin anything down conceptually
Friday at 9:00am · Like

Rohit Ok ,so if you are ready we can go for the final questions?
Friday at 9:05am via mobile · Like

Neil hahahaa nervous.... but yeah, i am.
Friday at 9:06am · Like

Rohit Is there a 'me' at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? How about self, is there anything separate from everything else ? I want you to write answers honestly from your own direct experience and in your own words .
Friday at 9:16am via mobile · Like

Neil Alright.
a me is a thought, so thoughts appear, and thoughts do appear, even me thought still, but it's just a thought. there was never a me, just a thought about me, which was taken together with a sense of self, aliveness, memories, other thoughts, images, body sensations, etc and was constantly held in consciousness as 'me' or 'I'. there can always be a thought about me or I, but the very idea of a me is hard to even hold in my mind it dismantles so quickly, as in, "how ridiculous". There are still charges, body tensions, and other such things that arise when i ask myself such question (in the process of regular self-checking). There are also many tendencies that were once previously operating from the central tendency of the "I" that are still apparent, but are not held in consciousness for long, and dissipate soon, but they do still arise.separation is also just an idea, a concept that seems very familiar, but before thought, things just are, and it's impossible to say, but i'm pretty sure there was no sense of separation before the thought of separation comes in. There is still a perceptual filter, and a mind-shadow that is cast over reality which still makes certain things distinct, but it's not really much of a problem, if at all. The only reason I know this mind-shadow or perceptual filter and conceptualize it as such are because of comparison to 'clarity moments' / 'oneness moments'... so it's all just concepts and thoughts. When i just get quiet everything just sort of is... it's hard to put a word to it. there is no grand 'omg it's all one' and there is no 'omg i'm separate either'. there is a quietness at the core of it all.
so self, is also just like the 'i' and 'me' labels, but has a more existential as opposed to personal component to it, but still has the flavor of separation, which are also kind of silly, and just concepts. there is honestly, a sense of separation, but that is usually body sensations compared with other sensations such as vision, perception of space. dropping all of that, it's just a silent simplicity, and some tension, and even those are just labels.
that's really the best way i can explain it in my own words ATM :P
Friday at 9:28am · Like

Rohit Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is,when it starts and how it works ?
Friday at 9:43am via mobile · Like

Neil it starts with thought. some sensations are compared to others. usually a body sensation(usually uncomfortable), especially one of a knot in the gut or stomach area, is compared with vision and sense of a 3d space(distance). that is the only way i can recreate the sense of separation at the moment. it must have been much more complicated before, but i believe it was the same premise.
without thoughts, things just Are (not to be cliche), after thoughts things get divided up, or whatever is apparent or experienced gets divided up.
this could also work when contemplating the future or the past, which are also just concepts, thoughts which a richer and vivid detail usually coupled with a strong and visceral emotion.
it's an illusion because there is a center which is maintained, and the center couples with everything above and churns it and maintains it. this becomes habit, and it is repeated, and accepted, and repeatedly accepted, and it becomes 'real'. It's an illusion when the "I" is taken as real, or better put, when the I is taken as I - lol......... add loops, and reinforcement by culture and other people, and negative emotions, hopes, dreams, yada yada yada yada....
this sense still arises, but does not last, as it is seen to be a barrage of thoughts, and under that sensations+emotions.
it seems that the body has a strong memory, and is just playing out what was played out for so long.
There we go :P
Friday at 9:54am · Like

Neil oh and this process happens so fast that it is almost immediately accepted as what-is, when it is just a division and 'twisting' of what-is
Friday at 9:56am · Like

Neil this is a mix of my direct experience, as well as trying to recreate the sense, and some of my conceptualization of it.
Friday at 9:56am · Like

Rohit How does it feel to see this? Explain in detail
Friday at 9:59am via mobile · Like

Neil What is seen even changes a lot, but what is see/experienced/felt is similar to life 'before', with a few core differences (which also fluctuate):
- there is no stable core (or really no core at all, just the arising of previously core associated arisings)
- there is a sense of sweet peace... i don't know how to describe this feeling... it feels like a mix of peace, cuteness, love, affection, silliness, sweetness, elation, causeless joy (to be cliche), emptiness, aliveness, dissolving, flowingness, intimacy...
there is still 2 things that constantly arise with a charge, although do not stick for long, however I feel they are important to address
- what do i do now?
as in i've been seeking for so long that it's become part of everything. a lot of the seeking, even meditation, or the idea of meditation (at least how i've done it before) feels pointless, the only 'practice' that makes sense is just to let what-is, whatever it is, destroy anything left, or merge, or dissolve...
there is still a desire to dive deeper, or for more to fall away
- i want to see deeper, clearer, more
^^^ the above makes me always question if i'm still seeking, but at the same time, it feels natural to want to go deeper to what is true. i love truth and i love what it is and it's what i am... it's home. it's different from seeking, although i could be mistaken. seeking was perhaps mixed with this impulse/desire as well... in fact now that i think about it, it was mixed.
it feels great. a nice smile --> :). very grateful.
also, it feels a little disorienting, as a lot of old habits are arising, old tendencies, old 'ego-structures', and having them arise are disorienting, and what's even more disorienting is that they don't make much sense to follow.
There ya go!
Friday at 10:11am · Like

Neil oh and there is also anxiety, nausea and some fear... but the thought is seen as a thought, and the feeling is just felt... it doesn't last long, although it insists it is important, but really it isn't... at all... lol
Friday at 10:12am · Like

Rohit How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it ?
Friday at 10:20am via mobile · Like

Neil I'm not even sure how I would go about it, to be honest, but i'll try.
I would say that if they were truly interested in 'spirituality', then they start at a root perceptual misunderstanding that has been explained many times, chiefly by the Buddha, but is always swept aside. I would ask them to question who they are, and how they are sure of this. If they are truly interested in knowing Truth, then they have to start with the most overlooked yet obvious one, that there is really no actual person, no separate self, no real "I" behind the word. I would say this is the foundation of most if not all illusion, ignorance and suffering, and is by far the best place to start. It's also probably the easiest to start with, and is accessible to everyone, free, on the internet - WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT? :D The Sangha, on the Web!
I wouldn't know what else to say, but I would describe it from my own experience, and what things feel like, and how life is. It would probably be best described to a seeker, but not sure how I would explain it to anyone else, or if I would really want to.
It's a good start, and perhaps an essential start, to anyone who wants to know the Truth. I would also say I feel a lot free-er, yet also very lost, but also that I love it with all my heart - lol
Friday at 10:28am · Like

Neil I would also add that there is an essential distinction between understanding this intellectually, and actually Knowing it, Seeing it, and letting it sink in (which is still hapenning for me)
Friday at 10:29am · Like

Rohit What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? Was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? What exactly happened?
Friday at 10:41am via mobile · Like

Neil It first happened about 2 weeks ago, and then the core-identification returned. Then again last night, and hasn't left. It was more gradual really. So lots of hard looking, struggling, contemplating key questions and instructions posed. The last bit I think was last night when I just sat in bed and looked and looked and looked and looked, and then all of a sudden there was no more core, no assertion. It was just then REALLY obvious that there was no "I" or "me", just a thought, just a thought, just thoughts. I was skeptical at first, and still am a little bit, especially since the first happening disappeared, but those are all just thoughts, and this was all just a story.
I think gradual is the best way to put it, and no clear way of identifying what mechanism actually did the trick, but it definitely changed last night. Just looking over and over again perhaps finally got it through, or maybe it just happened... like everything else does - lol.
Friday at 10:47am · Like

Rohit Ok.take a break for now .will get back to you later....till then keep looking .:)
Friday at 10:51am via mobile · Like

Neil Okay, will do. Thanks.
Friday at 10:53am · Like

Rohit Is there a fear of something being NOT PERMANENT? LOOK at fear.. Does is it come from the thing called self?
Friday at 8:17pm via mobile · Like

Neil At present there is no fear. There is not much concern about this, and a popping up of a thought "I could care less". There is some anxiety, but I don't know if it is related to yo...See More
Friday at 10:43pm · Like

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