Thinking

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Ravi
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Thinking

Postby Ravi » Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:30 am

Hi all,
thanks for this great site. I believe I have experienced no self on several occasions and experience this when I am simply seeing without labeling or describing. My problem seems to be that I don't believe my own experience and I think this is because I feel that I do have some control over thought. Simply seeing says that there is no one at the wheel. Thinking seems to imply a controller. Can you help me with this. Thanks,best regards, Ravi.

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Rohit
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Re: Thinking

Postby Rohit » Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:43 am

Hi,

Ravi .

I will be working with you .

I have some basic rules and expectations.

BE 100% HONEST .

DO NOT AGREE TO ANYTHING YOU ASSUME TO BE TRUE INSTEAD QUESTION EACH AND EVERYTHING .

YOU MUST BE ENGAGING ON DAILY BASIS .

One important thing to ask is, that whatever teachings, beliefs or spiritual practices, you have acquired along your journey till now; Please put them aside until this conversation is over.

are you ready ?

What expectations do you have from becoming Liberated?

Your objective is to look at reality and

a) See that there is no 'self' object in the place where the brain assumes a 'self' to exist, and
b) See that life operates perfectly without the need of a 'self'.

LOOK at word "SELF". what does it point to?

keep checking in .

your friend

-Rohit

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Ravi
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Re: Thinking

Postby Ravi » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:05 pm

Hi Rohit, thanks a lot, I am ready.
I don't have any expectations other than seeing more clearly what is already present.

At present the word SELF points to a transparent controller though I know from glimpses of no self that the control element is not true. My problem seems to stem from the feeling that I can use thought and indeed control it to some degree.

Regards, Ravi

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Rohit
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Re: Thinking

Postby Rohit » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:18 pm

My problem seems to stem from the feeling that I can use thought and indeed control it to some degree.
but ,is it true ?


LOOK at your thoughts now .


where do they come from ?


is there a THINKER who thinks the thoughts ?


do you know which thought is going to follow the previous one ?


in what ways can YOU control thoughts ?


I want you to have a particular thought—the thought of “I” or “me.


Really experience this “I.”


Does it have the quality of something real or is it more like a memory ?SEE .


By real I mean that which exist, that does not disappear if you stop believing in it.

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Ravi
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Re: Thinking

Postby Ravi » Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:47 pm

Hi Rohit,
thanks for being there.
Thoughts just appear and I can't find a thinker. When I look for the thinker or "I" there is only transparency. I realize that this should answer my question but when someone asks me to pause thought I seem to be able to do that? I also seem to be able to cut a story if I find myself lost in negativity. This seems like control to me. Can you comment on this please.
Ravi

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Rohit
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Re: Thinking

Postby Rohit » Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:16 am

Thoughts just appear and I can't find a thinker. When I look for the thinker or "I" there is only transparency.
ok .so you say there is no Thinker .
I realize that this should answer my question but when someone asks me to pause thought I seem to be able to do that?
I also seem to be able to cut a story if I find myself lost in negativity. This seems like control to me. Can you comment on this please.

This is self contradictory.

Either you control the thoughts or you don't.

Its really that simple. You can't have it both ways.

Either you are flying the plane or you are not.

is there some kind of autopilot mechanism that kicks in as soon as you stop controlling the thoughts ?


lets do a small experiment :



Ready?



Ok... don't think of an APPLE.



Don't let the image of an APPLE appear in your mind,



Go on..



keep going...



resist it....



so ,what is it ?

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Ravi
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Re: Thinking

Postby Ravi » Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:51 am

Hi Rohit,
I am not fully convinced (sorry but I am honoring the promise to be honest)

Why does it have to be one way or the other?
It seems as though thought is random but then somehow from those random arisings I can step in, so to speak, and utilize thought and direct it.

I truly want to find out that I am wrong about this because I know freedom lies there but I cannot settle for something that is not clearly seen.

I did the apple experiment and yes, the image of an apple came immediately to mind unchosen but I was able to immediately drop that and return to raw knowing/presence.

Am I missing something here?

Thanks for your patience, Ravi.

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Rohit
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Re: Thinking

Postby Rohit » Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:01 am

Awareness is always there. But what you are trying to do by getting back to that 'awareness' is trying to achieve a state of no-thoughts. Absence of thoughts is not 'awakening'.

To be free of content means you are not trapped by content and doesn't mean absence of it.

There are thoughts, there are emotions, there is awareness aware of thoughts and emotions.... where are YOU???

Check this assumption of a YOU to be in existence.

YOU are nothing. Not Awareness or thoughts. YOU don't exist. At all.

what does the "I" refer to ?

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Ravi
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Re: Thinking

Postby Ravi » Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:57 am

Hi Rohit,
I am honestly not trying to achieve a state of no thought. I did that for years and became very good at it. And as you say it has nothing to do with freedom.

I have experienced, several times a complete absence and it was seen clearly that the absence includes everything except me.

That absence points to exactly what you are describing but this is not my ongoing experience or at least I am not seeing it.

I understand what you say and can see that you want to take me straight to the core of the matter. Maybe I am laboring over the thought thing too much.

I don't know where to go from here?
Ravi

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Rohit
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Re: Thinking

Postby Rohit » Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:28 am

Hi Ravi ,
That absence points to exactly what you are describing but this is not my ongoing experience or at least I am not seeing it.
What are YOU expecting to SEE ?

LOOK!!

What can you control ?

do you control breathing ?

do you control heart beating ?

do you control hearing ?

do you control seeing ?

do you control digestion ?

do you control circulation of blood ?

do you control the growth of your body ?

do you control thoughts ? feelings ? sensations ? emotions ?

do you control anything ? SEE what is true ?

DON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING .QUESTION EACH AND EVERYTHING .



SEE what is really true ?


you will never find an apple or anything else in your mind , just thought about these things .

similarly ,can you find an "I" ,"me" or "self" in real or are they just another thoughts ?

By real I mean that which exist, that does not disappear if you stop believing in it.

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Ravi
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Re: Thinking

Postby Ravi » Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:46 am

Hi Rohit,
you ask me to question everything and not to believe.

I have a feeling you may get frustrated but the thought issue is not resolved!

Everything else on your list is seen clearly to be just happening.

I am still stuck with the contradiction that EXPERIENTIALY, thought can be directed AND that there is no thinker.

I'm embarrassed to keep on repeating this and I will understand if you do not wish to continue. For me, I feel stuck without an answer to this predicament.

Ravi.

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Rohit
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Re: Thinking

Postby Rohit » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:11 am

I am still stuck with the contradiction that EXPERIENTIALY, thought can be directed AND that there is no thinker.
if there is NO THINKER ,what is directing the thoughts ?

The reason for memory recall is due to a stimulus of some kind, sometimes they even appear to arise in our minds for no reason we perceive. Either case, there does not need to be a thinker behind the thinking, it just occurs anyway. There is no ownership of memories or experience, something was just experienced.

from the last experiment we did ,it has already been proved that :

Well, it tells us in no uncertain terms that the brain is wired to respond to an external stimulus with thought.

There cannot be any control over this process, we have just demonstrated that no matter how hard the attempt to suppress thought, it cannot be accomplished.

The stimulus triggered the thought and this process is completely independent of intervention.

Try and stop the thoughts of the mind right now. See if a minute can pass without thinking occurring.

I'm willing to bet you are not a shamen who can go in to a trance at will.


Maybe if you practice meditation, you know the noise that comes from thought is difficult to switch off... there is just no off switch!

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Rohit
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Re: Thinking

Postby Rohit » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:23 am

SEE .what i mean to say is this ,yes, thought can be directed, sure, but is it you directing it?

if yes , how do you do that?

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Ravi
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Re: Thinking

Postby Ravi » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:50 am

Hi Rohit,
O.K. I see what you are pointing to. You say "If there is no thinker, what is directing the thoughts?" You also say that thought can be directed.

I can now somehow see that I can't do that.

So are you saying that thought is just being noticed to have direction? In other words, am I just mis-reading "my" experience?

We might be getting somewhere :-)

Ravi

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Ravi
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Re: Thinking

Postby Ravi » Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:02 pm

Hi Rohit,
there can be prolonged periods of no thought and this can be cultivated but you have just made me see that I don't control when thinking starts again. If this is true then what I see as cultivated control is not control at all. Thanks for that very important insight.

Ravi.


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