New here - is a guide available ?

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BCL
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New here - is a guide available ?

Postby BCL » Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:55 am

Hello - I'm not too techno - I hope I can navigate this. I have had quite a bit of 'mystical' phoenomena in my life - most completely uninvited ... starting very young ... and some of it in my 20's plus - which was very devastating in how radically it turned my life on it's head at various junctures. ... oddly I never heard of/really understood - "liberation" till I met Adya in 05 ... and my goodness what a ride.

Anyway, dove into "awakening" stuff - experientially amazing unitary 'experiences' ... blah blah .... still no matter how mystical the expeiences - in a day to a week they faded and - here she comes ... the thoughts/ sense of self story seems to re-embed itself ... and I've become quite discouraged. I realize I have a very strong belief that "I" may be one of those who remains endlessly stuck overall - with the occasional ongoing 'drop' experiences. Ahhhh!!!

Still ... the hopeful seeking impulse is kicking enough to have me here ... after seeing the batgap interview. If there is a guide who might be willing to assist me ... in untangling - I would very much appreciate it.

By the way, how will I know if a guide responds ... and how to find responses? It's probably obvious to most but not to me. My plan is to keep an eye on the one on one post area ... (?)

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Rohit
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Re: New here - is a guide available ?

Postby Rohit » Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:01 am

Hi,

BCL ,what would you like to be called ?

I will be working with you .

I have some basic rules and expectations.

BE 100% HONEST .

DO NOT AGREE TO ANYTHING YOU ASSUME TO BE TRUE INSTEAD QUESTION EACH AND EVERYTHING .

YOU MUST BE ENGAGING ON DAILY BASIS .

One important thing to ask is, that whatever teachings, beliefs or spiritual practices, you have acquired along your journey till now; Please put them aside until this conversation is over.

are you ready ?

What expectations do you have from becoming Liberated?

Your objective is to look at reality and

a) See that there is no 'self' object in the place where the brain assumes a 'self' to exist, and
b) See that life operates perfectly without the need of a 'self'.

LOOK at word "SELF". what does it point to?

keep checking in .

your friend

-Rohit

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BCL
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Re: New here - is a guide available ?

Postby BCL » Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:09 pm

Hi Rohit:

Thank you very much for responding .... I looked thru the posts this morning and couldn't find my request on pgs one thru five = Yikes!? Could you explain how this works - as I know the request was there last night when I went to bed. Do I need to sign in each time to find responses? Please let me know for ease of the the functional part of our conversation. Thank you again - for responding - I am very grateful - I - thought - wow great start - I - got deleted on my first attempt.

OK - I will begin though I am a little leary of responding in full in case you don't get this back - as I have no idea where on this site - this conversation is being registered.

I am very ready. Spiritual practices were never my strong suit -- I was born and raised in Hawaii and we are known for being a little lazy = no intensely zen traits here. I gave up trying to meditate a few years ago ... I do enjoy sitting - often under a huge willow tree where I live - it makes a big cave and I pretend I am in the wilderness - it is very peaceful. It is not a practice - just something I do when I feel to - on days I'm not working. I don't consider it a practice - however please let me know if you do. A lot of spiritual beliefs have flown the coop as well - in the last few years - though you are very welcome to let me know if any are showing up as we share.

My expectations. Interesting ... I am immediately aware of feeling discouraged about ever becoming liberated. Not a great expectation to start with - still it is here. I am aware of what my thoughts - wish - it would be - many of those are like Illona talked about - a sense of "reaching back" into what have become memories of some very strong glimpses ... the awe and sense of freedom - of seeing with a feeling of shock that "other" only existed in the story of "bridget" and that story had nothing to do with what I was ... which was everything .. there was no perceiver apart from - what I will call perceiving (not an accurate description) .... anyway - those experiences were so strong - I have become addicted to the memory of them ... even though each glimpse has been incredibly unique - interestingly. But so - I now feel somehow locked into a rigid expectation that "liberation" will feel - well liberating - from this entraped encasement of awareness in a body .... eg the memory of awareness/perceiving -the sense of seeing and all senseing - not coming from inside the body as it generally seems to. These memories and the sense of awe and incredible lucidity of awareness .... this has all become a very burdensome - expectation - or set of expectations - sad to say. Somehow mystical type glimpses - have become all tangled up in expectations of what 'liberation' would be. Before I heard of or understood what the term "enlightenment" really meant in 05 - eg I used to think it must be some kind of extended acid trip without the acid (not something I've done much of at all). Now I have the same pattern applied to liberation - it must be like these memories - that don't even exist except in these thoughts I am having about them ... which at the moment feels very discouraging.

Anyway, - sorry to be on a bit of a downer at the moment. I have been looking a lot - staring even - at 'reality' looking at what are these thoughts about a self ... jumbled memory sensations. In my case - self - seems to be mostly thoughts about survival or anything to do with this - non objective - 'self' sensation/thought jumble - like work and inter-relational thoughts ... things this self - wants or doesn't want - to perpetuate it's beliefs about this supposed self. Last week I'd been sitting for quite a long while in the yard - really focusing on this .. At one point - I was staring at a leaf - miraculous - what is this ... and then there was a thought - (like this leaf) what am - I - made of - and there was this immediate rush or overwhelming space/emptiness experience that was so visceral ... suddenly thoughts appeared to be dangling in nothing and related to nothing - what I was - wasn't 'dead' space - but a viscerally alive emptiness ... the life/identity felt like an old sweater I'd been wearing forever ... anyway after a few days it faded again. Somehow there must be a prior awareness ... or something -... these are after the fact thoughts about - here it is again - memory/thoughts. I really don't know what a self is other than a jumble of thought memories - which somehow keep hanging around. Then I keep coming up with theories like maybe there is some kind of conditioned emotional super glue - that keeps this from being clearly seen through ... hmm that sounds like a spiritual belief. Ok that's enough for now. How often do you recomend I check in? Also, I watch myself consider (b) - with a jaded - not so sure sense- that life operates "perfectly" without a self ... that feels very theoretical to me at this time ... it feels like one of my beliefs that I wish I - really - believed - however when I watch this self bounce around in the world - it's clear - it believes it's two cents is of importance .... it always occurs when there is something it wants - or - wants - to avoid.

This mind sure makes things complicated. Anyway, you could just call me - b -. I sure hope you get this and that I keep finding where the responses are. This is a brilliant site - in it's conception - and what it offers. I am so grarteful to have found it - whatever 'happens'. Thank you for your willingness to help.
b

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Rohit
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Re: New here - is a guide available ?

Postby Rohit » Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:56 am

Hi ,

-b-
Thank you very much for responding .... I looked thru the posts this morning and couldn't find my request on pgs one thru five = Yikes!?

Could you explain how this works - as I know the request was there last night when I went to bed.

Do I need to sign in each time to find responses? Please let me know for ease of the the functional part of our conversation.

Thank you again - for responding - I am very grateful - I - thought - wow great start - I - got deleted on my first attempt
No need to worry .you will find our thread mostly on the 1st or 2nd page .

to reply you need to sign in and it will be great if you can check in at least once a day.

Ok .now lets begin!

When I say :

"There is no self at all in reality. No YOU that lives YOUR life."

Watch, wait, notice, write- what comes up? Is there fear?

Is there doubt? Resistance? Frustration? Something that wants to scream and make a turn away, something that says this is not working?

Or maybe there is wow, joy, relief?

Notice all that is going on inside and just put it down in writing.

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BCL
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Re: New here - is a guide available ?

Postby BCL » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:07 pm

Hi Rohit:

Ok - I am definitely mostly in the first group of options ... - doubt, resistance and frustration - which sometimes includes the thougths of - this - (whatever it might be) is not working... nothing will ever work. I have felt relief at other times ... however at the moment there is more doubt and frustration ... a sense of being trapped as if velcroed 0r glued to mind - what ever mind/thoughts are.

It's a relief if I'm in a story about oh this is fun ... then if the idea of not getting it arises - then feelings of downess trail along with the thougths. I believe - this - these thoughts - are 'mine' my experience - there is - my - car, my surf board - 'my' great wave 'my' shitty day or good one - or 'my' spiritual experience. Sometimes there seems to be just sensations ... thoughts even seem to have sensations - which is another thought description. Ahhhh!

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Rohit
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Re: New here - is a guide available ?

Postby Rohit » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:01 am

Hi
-b- ,
Ok - I am definitely mostly in the first group of options ... - doubt, resistance and frustration - which sometimes includes the thougths of - this - (whatever it might be) is not working... nothing will ever work. I have felt relief at other times ... however at the moment there is more doubt and frustration ... a sense of being trapped as if velcroed 0r glued to mind - what ever mind/thoughts are.

It's a relief if I'm in a story about oh this is fun ... then if the idea of not getting it arises - then feelings of downess trail along with the thougths. I believe - this - these thoughts - are 'mine' my experience - there is - my - car, my surf board - 'my' great wave 'my' shitty day or good one - or 'my' spiritual experience. Sometimes there seems to be just sensations ... thoughts even seem to have sensations - which is another thought description. Ahhhh!
Ok. Bring all closer. Focus on fear.
What are those fears, what is resistance? Notice, that it's protection mechanism. The fear itself is like a door, it holds you from looking behind the door. It's just fear. It’s ok for it to be there doing it’s job. Just let it be there, acknowledge its presence, check where it feels physically in the body.
What is fear itself?
What is it protecting?
What needs to be protected?
Ask it to reveal why it’s here, what it is trying to tell you, ask fear to share it’s wisdom.
If there is no self, then there is nothing that needs to be protected. Right?
Honour the feeling. Bow to it, thank it for doing it’s job.
Now look behind.
Is there anything behind the fear?
What?

-Rohit

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BCL
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Re: New here - is a guide available ?

Postby BCL » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:00 am

Oh your here early ... that's lovely.

When I read your message ... I just started crying ... and am having trouble stopping. I am not sure what you are looking for in a response. I could list fears ... it would be a long list. Same thing with resistance. Do I answere with a life story? Let me put it this way. I was raised in a home that was physically and emotionally very unsafe .. so fear is a visceral body level and emotional base line of moving in the world. I also grew up in a place where we were hated at school etc - and sometimes beaten up for being the wrong ethnic race - which oddly happened to be white = there were not any "safe" places - physically or emotionally. I also remember when I was very young feeling everyone had masks on ... and then a little later in life when I volunteered with some developmentally delayed children - I recall a huge sense of relief - as they were so honest emotionally. I somehow managed to live quite a socially involved life - however I lately have pulled away - having a health issue that makes my energy which used to be so abundant much less. I had been an All American swimmer and grew up surfing as well - but now my energy level is much less. I began to find I no longer wanted to use the energy I felt necessary to hang out with most friends. I have kept only one main close friend for now - the rest I feel to be associations. The energy I have I use to surf .... that is my one ongoing passion!

What is behind the fear? I really don't know. I sometimes feel a huge sense/feeling of tenderness welling up for no reason ....it happened just the other day and I cried and cried then too ... I have no idea what it is ... it is just there ... here and there for no reason. Is it behind fear .... I don't know. Is anything before or behind anything else - I'm not sure - though I think I understand the pointing. Sometimes there is a very amazing stillness or quiet - it just comes over me ... but then lot's of sensations and experiences come and go from fear - to frustration, anger and sadness - to profound loving feelings - though I use that word with great caution these days. I really don't even know what fear is - or what it's sensation is - I guess contraction ... there are many fearful stories and 'reasons' for it - ideas about it ... just seems like a survival mechanism. I can't stop crying - so I will go be with that for now.

Thank you Rohit
(somehow that feels very inadequate)

I also have long felt as though I exist in some strange kind of membrane - like a psychic membrane - it's an odd image that has come to me thru the years ... perhaps that is the fear attempting to 'protect' the "non existant" self sense.

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BCL
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Re: New here - is a guide available ?

Postby BCL » Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:38 am

Ok I got thru the crying ... and felt to share further on fear. Fear seems to exist as some kind of imaginary underpinning - like a generalized memory ... that seems to imply that as a baseline - something is not right like something/everything is somehow insane and therefore - dangerous and - needs fixing or at least remediation .... Fear seems to call in this seeming habitual - often not conscious force - of anxiety that perhaps initiates an energetic or force of constant resistance ... like it is always needing to protect itself = there is a generalized resistance to 'other' and the world 'out there'. When I surf - this likely gets projected onto a shadow in the water ... it could be a shark - especially every year after I watch shark week on TV - which was on TV last week - it is odd to seemingly torture oneself/ the imagination that way.

Fear seems to be a presumption or assumption - of 'other' - in whatever form ... and that is somehow a bit disconcerting. It is odd much of my life - I was terrified of being "alone" and always sought lots of company and companionship - friends, husband, lovers etc ... However, in the last 5 -7 years more and more I began to LOVE being alone and crave the quiet of it and the lack of a need to have the persona respond. Now I am fiercly protective of - space - the self other dance has played out it's polarities. So many great stories - so little time - and a dwindling belief in them.

Fear feels like an amorphous gut level sensation that for me usually operates under the radar ... unless asked about it - then it was right there ... or perhaps its opposite - eg vulnerability was allowed some room. These are names for sensations - experiences - it's the domain we are operating in.

You must live on the other side of the planet from me - your like the tooth fairy - got to wait till morning to find the evidence/gifts - you left behind.

Goodnight Rohit
B

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Rohit
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Re: New here - is a guide available ?

Postby Rohit » Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:34 am

Hi

-b-,


Sorry to hear about the story ,but lets SEE what is TRUE ?


Take a look at what fear is. Not the content. What is it? Where does it exist?


It's not your story, your fear. is it not just a feeling or a thought ?


And it's not a problem... unless.. UNLESS you honestly don't see that it comes from nowhere. UNLESS it is clear that it isn't, couldn't, never did, nor will ever come from some actual thing called a self/I/me.


Otherwise it's just story. Just fear. It's not always there, is it? Is it?


Take another LOOK. Is that sensation alone or is there more going on before the sensation starts. Where does it begin? Trace it.

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BCL
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Re: New here - is a guide available ?

Postby BCL » Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:22 pm

No need to feel sorry about the story eg no need for platitudes ... another story says it served to get 'my' attention to look more closely at what was happening ... which seemingly led me - 'here' wherever that might be.


I thought I did say - what fear is to me. It is like a gut level sensation or flush of what we are told is adrenaline - it is a visceral sensation that has a sense of urgency to it. It seems like an underlying vibe/body level sensation - it seems to be connected to the sense of appearing as a separate body in the world.


If I look closely i cannot say there is a body - just sensations - that have been heavily over-layered by a labeling process - eg thoughts ... that see to become beliefs... I don't know what a belief is - a concept which seems imaginary - yet very persistent.


No -I honestly don't see that everything comes from nowhere .. I honestly don't see any 'where' that anything comes from ... where looks like another concept ... when I experience sensations - I cant find a where really - though the mind keep droning on about ideas/thoughts about where. So no where would be closer to actual - experience - than somewhere.


Everything - that i thought - was meaningful - seems quite empty ... and the conditioning here - whatever that is - can run around the block with that and come up with stories about 'sadness' - eg -feelings it interprets as sadness ... or quiet stillness. It's an endless block to run around.


No fear isn't always present. I want to know how you see conditioning - is that another story? People with certain conditioning - seem - to express certain traits - express similar stories about their experience = what is that?


I have no idea where fear comes from unless - like a car is about to hit me - that's more like terror ... still I have been in a serious car accident many years ago - and actually wierdly I experienced a sense of intense focus ... however I don't recall fear. Maybe it was there - it happened so fast - I felt like I was in a cocoon - and that didn;t feel like fear. So fear for 'me' - usually comes from a story in the mind telling a story about how something it thinks might happen would not be a good thing. ... usually survival related - or the mind links or includes a threat to survival in the story = it is imaginary. Most of how the world is experienced is imaginary. Where do story lines come from? Seems like conditioning - even when the insanity of how imaginary story lines are is seen - they seem to have a habituated or hypnotic hold in the mind/body.


I can see that fears, thoughts stories come from nowhere - still they come - and seem to have impact in the bodymind system. At times ... there is a gap ... or less seeming attachment to the thought streams - at other times they seem to hypnotise and hold attention - like light projected on a movie screen - attention seems to habitually go to the screen and not to the light - metaphorically speaking. That's the story of the day - and I'm sticking to it for 'now' .


I am not aware of fear that often ... maybe it is just lurking below the 'surface' easily called out - like the reaction of crying when just the word was mentioned - who knows. Today I will look at other sensations ... as I do I do notice - that without the description I was giving them - there just seems to be an energetic quietness - I really don't know how to describe it. Which means I am somehow habitually hypnotized to my particular conditioned thought streams - or whatever thoughts/sensations are coming and going thru awareness.


What is awareness - what is noticing all these sensations - why do thoughts sound like my own voice and not another voice ... why's don't help much still it seems wierd that they never sound like another. Are we cutting our way back to pre-verbal levels - in part? I have no idea what is registering this - world - or soup of sensations ???


I have not yet been able to find a before sensation ... so far there is just the registering of sensations - whatever they are - call them fear, joy, sadness, sounds, light/sight, taste ... they all seem to occur nowhere - the space thing is incomprehensible ... what is memory ... without the story of time? Still all thought looks like memory in thought/verbal form.


Perceptions feel somehow - immanent - in the sense I can't find a 'now'. Everything - feels flimsy and rediculous from the minds point of view - whatever that is. ... I don't know where anything begins ... I don't believe anything does begin .... and I don't even know what that means.


I used to - believe - I was getting somewhere - and felt a lot of "peace" for a number of years - lately I feel edgy - the story now is - the "I" got - nowhere - after all. Maybe that's not so bad - or so good - just another story it seems.

Enough for now.
Thank you Rohit

PS aren't "stories" made of thoughts?

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Rohit
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Re: New here - is a guide available ?

Postby Rohit » Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:34 am

Hi
-b-,
No fear isn't always present. I want to know how you see conditioning - is that another story? People with certain conditioning - seem - to express certain traits - express similar stories about their experience = what is that?
Yes .Every story is just another story .

NOW ,

what is this "I/me" that you keep referring to ?

LOOK at your thoughts now .

where do they come from ?

is there a THINKER thinking the thoughts ?

can you control/ start/ stop your thoughts ?

do you know which thought is going to follow the previous one ?

I want you to have a particular thought—the thought of “I” or “me.

Really experience this “I.”

Does it have the quality of something real or is it more like a memory ?

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BCL
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Re: New here - is a guide available ?

Postby BCL » Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:54 am

Hi Rohit:

I can't find any -where- that thoughts come from.

I can't find any thinker - still thoughts persist that presume there must be one - or something (conditioning?) that 'generates'/thinks thoughts = ? = who is the storyteller/thinker - thoughts appear fro nowhere I can find =?

No - I cannot control my thoughts ... which implies I don't know which thought will be next .... though it does seem that I can plan to think a thought and do so just as I can say I will lift my right arm and do so. However - I could not have predicted that this trail of thoughts would have occurred - nor what will follow - including 'planned' thoughts.

As I wrote in my previous segment - all thoughts seem like memory - including the I thought(s). ... according to the story of me - all thoughts have to be memory - as I must have learned them at one time - or so the story of me goes.

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Rohit
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Re: New here - is a guide available ?

Postby Rohit » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:18 am

Hi

-b- ,


Before we move on ,lets take a CLOSER look at your expectations :

1 ) why do you need another guide ?

2 ) what do you expect from me ?

3 ) what do you expect a guide should for you ?

4 ) what are your expectations from this conversation ?

It would be great if you list down in a sequential order as 1. 2. 3.

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BCL
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Re: New here - is a guide available ?

Postby BCL » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:47 pm

Hi Rohit - ok ...

1. I feel I need another guide - because I don't feel you actually read what I say. You ask questions about things I have addressed and ignore many aspects of my experience that I feel are pertinent to this conversation ... such as about the "I" being memory and you reduce conditioning to just a story - which it is - however there are implications that do arise about conditioning that I have heard Illona address and it feels like the whole topic was summarily dispensed with - as another story. That is what I mean about you being so 'bare bones' and 'perfunctory'. I end up feeling like I am dealing with a computer program and not someone who understands what it is to grapple with this. This is a challenging process and is something I care deeply about - and it feels important to feel trust and some resonance/understanding - with the guide. For example, when I have sat with "teachers" many don't draw me at all - nothing wrong with them ... and ... I only spent time with the ones where I felt a basic 'resosance'.

I hearltily wish that I had read some of the threads on the site and then requested a guide who was responding to 'seekers' in a way that I could relate to and feel a resonance with. I feel you will take all this and just say it is another story - and while that - is - true - however whenever we ask a 'why' question it will always be another story in response. It's the old remove a thorn with a thorn story.


2. I expect some understanding that goes beyond everything is a story ... I feel no sense of relatedness with your responses. I feel that you are instructed to ask specific questions and there is just a list you are sticking to and that it is too rigid for my style. I do feel you operate in a very male mode eg fix it and get the job done - women (in general) often operate a bit differently - within a similar pathway. Some folks like to hike down a trail and just get there - and some like to notice the scenery along the way and enjoy a little conversation. I feel you to be in the first bunch - nothing wrong - and I am in the second bunch - nothing wrong with that either.

3. A guide would be able to respond in ways that let the seeker know they were heard and understood. I feel that sharing in a way that communicates understanding of the uniqueness of each seekers journey is important. I don't feel you even read half of what I write. While you are technically doing your job - the sense of caring is simply not registered here - due to a style difference - not - that you don't actually care. You wouldn't be offering this freely if you didn't care. For another that moves more as you do - there wouldn't be a more perfect match. I am just not that.

4. My expectations would be to be guided to truth in a caring manner. It is not that you are uncaring - it just feels abrupt and mechanical compared to - what I am calling - a more human approach. I could just say stop all stories ...however I notice that other guides ask and seem to want to know how someone got to where they are -which feels more intimate and - yes - personal - in this movement toward impersonal. Eg it establishes a sense of connection and feeling of understanding - before moving into the work. I noticed that your initial message is rote and atomated ... and I believe that the same thing that gets you to approach a seeker with an automated intro is the same - perhaps conditioning - that moves you in the way you are moved. Some folks prefer machetes to kitchen knives. "I" - prefer - not to be gone after with a machtete. That is an exagerated image to make a point. Not bad at all - in fact I saw one of your helpees who totally loved your "laser" approach. We are just not all cookie cut the same ... and life seems to express preferences as it moves. This is part of the dance that is apparently happening here. I so wish I had watched guides and then submitted a specific request - silly me - I sometimes jump into things too quickly and then have to sort things out later - conditioning! A few days of observation would have served me and everyone - in this process with more clarity ... at the start of this process.

I hope this clarifies without being hurtful ... it is as honest as I know to be at the moment.
Thank you again for taking the time to work with me on this.

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Rohit
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Re: New here - is a guide available ?

Postby Rohit » Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:10 pm

Yes ,you are RIGHT .

I will ask another guide who can understand you better .

THANK YOU


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