Rohit and Sophia pt 1

[Rohit]

Rohit welcome Sophia . Tell us what brought you here. Thanks!
July 11 at 8:18pm · Like · 1


Sophia Hello and thank you for accepting me.... I have been thinking about your question. I guess after years of meditation practice, and a few awakenings, I feel the self dissolves in meditation. But then I get back to life as a mother, wife, yoga teacher etc etc and all these ideas of self and "I" come back.... Its a hard balance.
July 12 at 1:51pm · Like


Rohit Welcome!
One important thing to ask is, that whatever teachings, beliefs or spiritual practices, you have acquired along your journey till now; Please put them aside until this conversation is over. They are of NO use here...You can revisit them later if you wish...
Honesty is the key here.
Okay first question...

What expectations do you have from becoming Liberated?

Second question...

what does 'I' mean to you?
July 12 at 2:37pm · Like


Sophia Thank you for your reply. Expectations of liberation? To be free (or freer from desires)
July 12 at 3:39pm · Like


Sophia sorry pressed enter mid sentence. Yes to feel at peace with the moment totally, not to be analyzing the past or stressing about the future.
July 12 at 3:40pm · Like

Sophia But to still be able to be here now, with my family, my kids, my work
July 12 at 3:41pm · Like

Sophia To be liberated for me means to see clearly mine and others motivations, that how ever different they are, it all stems from a desire to be happy
July 12 at 3:42pm · Like


Sophia ‎"I" is a tricky one. I am a whole list of things, well at least to the society that I am living in. But "I" feels like a bunch of roles, labels, my own and others expectations and assumptions but seems to miss the essence of me. i struggle with this because at some level I feel that I am just a load of molecules organized into the physical being, but everything in the world is just a bunch of molecules, we are all connected. That idea of "i" tends to separate. That is what i struggle with
July 12 at 3:45pm · Like


Sophia OK I forgot.... I to me is also EGO. I have had some pretty intense realizations, some lasting a few hours, some lasting weeks and months. Once these have occur I can't go back. They all end up being around the sense of I and the non self. Each experience sends me further into the world. Breaks down more and more ideas of self and I. It makes me feel more love and compassion and gratitude. But I also have fear of alienation from my "roles" although and am very grateful my family are totally supportive and accepting of me. But my outer roles, that of a member of my network around my children's school is getting harder. I don
July 12 at 4:29pm · Like

Sophia I don't care any more about whether I fit in but it is important that my connections with people are still honest and open.
July 12 at 4:31pm · Like


Rohit Desires are just waves in the mind.desires are the thoughts of pleasure. Everything is its own cause.
Truth is simple.illusion is not.Why do you complicate? Nothing you can see, feel, or think is so.
July 12 at 9:16pm · Like


Rohit what are thoughts,feelings,emotions,sensations?who experiences this??where do they originate from?
who controls it?
July 12 at 9:16pm · Like


Rohit Does thinking require a thinker or is it just thinking? Does feeling require a feeler or is it just feeling happening?
It rains. Does it require a doer to rain?
July 12 at 9:16pm · Like


Rohit Abandon all beliefs,all thought structures,even all questions and do this:
Take a good, hard, deep look inside. Look, as hard as you can into the possibility you don't exist.
You never did. It was all a lie.
the point is not to get lost in the endless thoughts and to find the truth,what is real??is there really a self?
I don't want you to believe me. Don't put faith in it. Don't do anything but ask yourself:
"IS IT TRUE?"
July 12 at 9:17pm · Like




Rohit Don't think, look. Don't pay attention to all the feelings; it's distraction.

You've got a lot of thoughts, right? Were you thinking them? Was there a YOU thinking
them? OR was there just thoughts?
July 12 at 9:17pm · Like



Rohit You'll see how irrelevant the expectation of 'feeling a oneness' is when you're liberated.
July 12 at 9:18pm · Like


Rohit Is it not all just happening by itself?
Look at “I” right now and tell me what you see.
take your time.
give the answers WITH 100% honesty.
July 12 at 9:19pm · Like


Rohit Hi Sophia. How is it going?
July 13 at 6:53pm · Like


Sophia Hey hello. I am thinking lots about all your questions. But no Internet at the mo so I haven't been able to reply. I need to spend time working stuff out in my head. Yes I know I think too much. But your questions threw me in at the deep end!
July 14 at 4:37am · Like


Sophia I am slowly starting to connect the impermanence of everything around me to the impermanence of everything in me. My mind makes up lots of narratives about myself. I get glimpses of this dichotomy and I am - to be honest - scared to let all that go.
July 14 at 4:43am · Like


Sophia I don't know who thinks the thoughts. It's just the mind. Jumping from one thing to another. The not existing stuff typed earlier is hard to grasp.
July 14 at 4:45am · Like


Sophia My idea of being liberated? I am back at " I have no idea".
July 14 at 4:47am · Like


Sophia Is that what you mean to not exist? To be present in this empty space with no desires for the future or grasping the past?
July 14 at 4:48am · Like


Sophia Sorry if I take a while to get back in fb. I am waiting on a new modem. I will try to log in again in the next 24 hrs. But these questions are not far from my thoughts!
July 14 at 4:50am · Like


Rohit Ok there is a difference between looking and thinking. To see the truth of no "you" you need to LOOK at existential reality. Thinking about it will not do you any good.

Courage is required to see this through as the lie of self being threatened, will twist and turn and throw up every excuse not to look.

If you are thinking, then you are not looking

Logic becomes an obstacle to looking, always make sure you are looking instead of expecting an answer

If its frustrating and causing you discomfort then you are on the right track

Are "you" your thoughts or are "you" an entity that has thoughts?
July 14 at 9:39am · Like · 1


Sophia Yeah I am aware I think too much! But I know how to 'look'. I am not my thoughts. When I really get looking it is like my thoughts are a train rolling past an empty space.
July 15 at 3:44am · Like


Sophia I am sorry I can't write more at the moment. No internet access where I am til I get it fixed. Back online on Monday hopefully. Meanwhile plenty of time to think I mean, Eric, look =]
July 15 at 3:50am · Like


Rohit ‎"I am not my thoughts. When I really get looking it is like my thoughts are a train rolling past an empty space."

what does this "i" refer to?

Can you find a center? some entity that is experiencing the thoughts? when you move the eyes and look around, WHO or WHAT is seeing the objects?
Do "you" actually exist?

FOCUS!LOOK!

what do you see?
July 15 at 3:54pm · Like


Sophia Hello there back again
July 17 at 2:08am · Like


Sophia ‎"I" is just a construct of language as when I write I am not my thoughts a
July 17 at 2:09am · Like


Sophia I am just referring to the physical me
July 17 at 2:09am · Like


Sophia But
July 17 at 2:09am · Like


Sophia When my thoughts are just rolling by well there's nothing else in the centre of it. It's pretty strange for my grasping clinging mind. It's like the mind is its own shadow or an illusion
July 17 at 2:11am · Like


Sophia Which leads on to question the existence of "me" Sophia. Like who made all that stuff up anyway? Just the mind darting from one thing to another? Sure my body is here and I do all sorts of stuff and I feel love for myself and my kids and my family but "me" "I" ...... Behind that beyond that ..... Hmmmmm.
July 17 at 2:14am · Like


Sophia There are glimpses that it's not I at all. Just well .....
July 17 at 2:15am · Like


Sophia Its tough. I - Sophia - feels a massive flood of feelings when I glimps this nothing ness. I can't really describe it.
July 17 at 2:17am · Like


Rohit Good. Is there a self right now in any way, shape or form? How is this different from before?
July 17 at 8:01am · Like


Rohit There is no "I". Is it true?What experiences the life?
July 17 at 8:04am · Like


Sophia OK they are though ones.... gimme a bit to let them sink in....:)
July 17 at 11:24am · Like


Sophia When the glimpses of this nothingness come the no, there is no "I" anymore. Maybe it's just the mind making up all these perceptions of self. It really does feel like the whole concept of me is just made up. I mean I look at my kids. I think of them as babies. They didn't see themselves as "I". They just "were". Language and society made them slowly start to identify with I.
July 18 at 6:54pm · Like


Sophia What experiences the life....... Hmmmmmm....
July 18 at 6:58pm · Like


Sophia Well a combination of stuff all coming together. Like a sensory body, the thing being experienced all coming together at that time to create an experience. But the perceptions and schemas of the mind add some sort of valu judgement to it. But ...... If that is just an illusion.... Then is it..... Hmmmmm.... I am stuck. I I I !!!!!!! Grrrrrrrrrr :)
July 18 at 7:03pm · Like · 1


Rohit <When the glimpses of this nothingness come the no, there is no "I" anymore.>
ARE "you" watching this?Or someone witnessing/experiencing this?

<Maybe it's just the mind making up all these perceptions of self.>
Who is controlling the mind?

<It really does feel like the whole concept of me is just made up.>
who made IT?

<I mean I look at my kids.>
see.is there really a you looking?Or just looking?

<I think of them as babiES.>
who is thinking?Or just the thoughts?

<But ...... If that is just an illusion.... Then is it..... Hmmmmm.... I am stuck. I I I !!!!!!! Grrrrrrrrrr :)>

That little feeling right there, dissociating or denying this statement, where is it coming from?
July 19 at 3:12pm · Edited · Like


Rohit What are you afraid will happen, if no-self is seen to be true?

Fear itself is not to be feared.It’s a mechanism.
Working perfectly as a security system. It is protecting something from being found out.
Look at fear and just let it be here.
Find where in the body it is being felt, bring it closer.
Then Look what is behind the fear?
WRITE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE!
July 19 at 3:12pm · Like


Sophia Ok here we go. I am going to address the points you made.... I have some time now.
July 20 at 12:06pm · Like


Sophia ‎"are you watching this or is someone witnessing or experiencing this?"
July 20 at 12:07pm · Like


Sophia i don't believe ........ Ahhhhhh there I go again!!!! III ok I don't believe in a witness conscious. That is just a construct of mind, of its random activity. That is just what the mind does all by itself. This "I" I feel is all made up. I feel that. But I am feeling that intellectually too much I need to get out of my head. The "I" has a vested interest in stopping any looking or feeling into this. Cos then it looses it's power. So who watches this this?? I dunno. It's like nothing watches this. The I dissolves into the space inside the molecules......
July 20 at 12:13pm · Like


Sophia The mind is not controlled by anything; it is just its nature to develop this sence of self. It happens through a variety of factors like a plant growing needs seeds, soil, sun, temperature and a genetic code to start growing..... The mind is just the same.
July 20 at 12:17pm · Like


Sophia So the mind works by itself in a body..... Cos I don't really have much control over the majority of thoughts that pop into my head!! When I control my thoughts and actions, this "I" that is doing the controlling..... Has just learnt a bunch of behaviors.... Through experiencing life. Like a flower will grow to face the sun, or push its roots round stones in the ground. "I" have done that too, witha bunch of pre-programmed genetic factors, plus the environment, the physiology of the body, plus the other stuff around ..... A whole bunch of factors. It makes ME - the "I" feel quite emotional.....
July 20 at 12:23pm · Like


Sophia Those comments I wrote about my kids..... That's just the "I " again. Pre programmed to love and care for them. Which "I" love to do. That is a good function of mind....mot help perpetuate our species....
July 20 at 12:24pm · Like


Sophia The disassociation of "I" and the flood of feelings that come with it..... Is this just the way "I" , "self" is programmed? To produce feelings of fear, anxiety, confusion so that the disassociation does not continue and therefore "I" looses it's power? After all the mind is strong it is genetically programmed to perpetuate our species whether "I" like it or not!!!
July 20 at 12:28pm · Like


Sophia So......
July 20 at 12:29pm · Like


Sophia Even this flood of feelings is not real?... Ok new stuck bit...... How to get beyond the flood of feelings. Maybe I should just sit and "feel" it for a while!
July 20 at 12:30pm · Like


Rohit <i don't believe ........ Ahhhhhh there I go again!!!! III ok I don't believe in a witness conscious.
This "I" I feel is all made up...>

I want you to compare the following:
Take Batman. If you think about him, you have thoughts, feelings. They’re real, right?
Real thoughts, feeling, real image of a man in black lycra suit. But Batman is not real.Batman does not exist.
He is not part of reality. The thoughts and images are, but he isn’t.
Self is exactly the same as this. What arise are thoughts, feelings and sensations in the body.
Thoughts and feelings are real. But an actual self? That’s not real.
Self does not exist. You are not part of reality. The thoughts and images about you are,but a being that is living life? Thinking thoughts? No.
There’s nothing there.
Do not believe this.LOOK.
July 20 at 7:32pm · Like


Rohit <I don't really have much control over the majority of thoughts that pop into my head!!
When I control my thoughts and actions, this "I" that is doing the controlling.>

You mean to say: "I don't control all of the thinking, I only choose to have some of my thoughts".
OK.This is self contradictory. Either you control the thoughts or you don't.
who kicks in as soon as you stop controlling the thoughts?
DO THIS:
Ready?

Ok... don't think of Apple.

Don't let the image of Apple appear in your mind,

Go on, keep it going, resist it....

Awww...so what was it?

I want you to take a short walk.Just walk around the room a few times,
you need to be able to walk freely but I want you to notice what part the thinker plays in walking around the room.
Just notice how much control you have over walking. Just go and take a minute to do this and then come back.What did you notice?

But if there is still a "you" to control thoughts, where are you?
July 20 at 7:33pm · Like



Rohit <Even this flood of feelings is not real?...
How to get beyond the flood of feelings. Maybe I should just sit and "feel" it for a while!>

There is no question of feelings being not real OR GOING BEYOND THEM.are you the DOER?
can you stop feeling?do you control them in anyway?

do not agree because something sounds like it should be true.
Instead, check everything I say , ok?

If you but cease from useless conceptualizing, it will help you in looking.
July 20 at 7:34pm · Like


Sophia I am still walking.....
July 21 at 1:48pm · Like


Sophia I have a house full of kids today so will get back online later. Back to "who am I"
July 21 at 1:48pm · Like


Sophia This stuff is hard! But thank you bear with me please I am working in it!
July 21 at 1:49pm · Like


Rohit Hi Sophia. How is it going? “What Am I?”/“Who Am I?” is not enquiry but
rather delusion re-enforcing the “I” and Am which
are not.
July 22 at 12:08pm · Like


Sophia Hello I am back
July 22 at 1:13pm · Like


Rohit you did not answer the questions from earlier post?
July 22 at 1:16pm · Like


Sophia Ok back to walking. I went walking and 2 experiences happened. First I was walking and I felt it. I was totally absorbed in it. The ground under my feet, the movement of my legs, the air on my skin, my eyes looking at me and where I was going. Then there was this other me looking at me. Analyzing me, watching me, questioning me somehow not totally absorbed in the act of walking but walks watching from the sideline.
July 22 at 1:17pm · Like


Rohit Did you have to think about each step that you took?
Did your attention wander on to thought as you were walking?
Did this impair your walking in anyway?
July 22 at 1:32pm · Like


Sophia The first 'I' has no control over what it experiences, it just experiences everything and is totally absorbed in itself. Then this other "I" this observer is more critical and can pick and choose what it focuses on. I guess that's what I meant earlier when I said I have no controll over my feelings (that's the first part) and then there is an ability to focus and judge and watch me walking.
July 22 at 1:36pm · Like


Rohit When you clean
the house, it is not necessary to
analyze the dirt.is it?
July 22 at 1:40pm · Like


Rohit Who
is it that knows, understands, or
experiences both the "I's" ?
July 22 at 1:47pm · Like


Rohit If a tree falls in the forest and
there is nobody there, does it
make a sound?
July 22 at 1:49pm · Like


Rohit you there?
July 22 at 1:50pm · Like


Rohit i want you to honestly look at all the earlier posts,look into it.answer all the questions that you have not? then we can move forward.Everything you understand, you
understand through your concepts.
July 22 at 1:57pm · Like


Sophia No I didn't think about each step I took. I could if I wanted to but I didn't have to. My attention can wander if I let it. If I don't think too hard about walking then walking is just automatic my mind can wander all over the place
July 22 at 2:08pm · Like


Rohit What does the “I”
or “me” refer back to?
July 22 at 2:11pm · Like


Sophia Who is it that experiences both the "I's" ....
July 22 at 2:13pm · Like


Rohit yeah..tell me
July 22 at 2:13pm · Like


Sophia Something else experiences both the "I's" ....... It seems to be able to look down on it all but be apart of it all at the same time.
July 22 at 2:15pm · Like


Sophia I will go back to the beginning and start to try and answer the questions I have missed....
July 22 at 2:15pm · Like


Rohit yes!!that would be much better.no need to worry.we can do it together.just help me -help you.please do not forget about honesty part.be sincere.When you clean
the house, it is not necessary to
analyze the dirt.similarly when you LOOK dont analyze.
July 22 at 2:20pm · Like


Sophia Right at the beginning..... Does it require a thinker or is it just thinking? I don't know. Depends which came first. The thinker or the thought. I don't know.....
July 22 at 2:21pm · Like


Sophia I thought I knew. I thought all thoughts needed a thinker FIRST. But that's just what I had been told. Now I don't know.
July 22 at 2:21pm · Like


Sophia I am both my thoughts and the entity having thoughts....
July 22 at 2:22pm · Like


Rohit so can you control them?
July 22 at 2:24pm · Like


Sophia Ok I get that they are real. My thoughts I mean. But even that is a little scarey. Cos then "I" don't want to be caught up being tossed around by my emotions.
July 22 at 2:25pm · Like


Rohit what are emotions?whose emotions?
July 22 at 2:27pm · Like


Rohit what influences your emotions?
July 22 at 2:30pm · Like


Rohit OK.What is SOPHIA? what does it point to?
July 22 at 2:34pm · Like


Sophia When I look at what "I" is then ...... Back to the massive flood of feelings and a sence that there is no " I " at all. Who senses the life? Well me, this body does. And all the feelings and thoughts with it. And then the bit that looks at all this going on. And then this other bit..... The bit that looks at the looker
July 22 at 2:35pm · Like


Sophia I dunno.
July 22 at 2:35pm · Like


Rohit this means you are not trying to LOOK but answer intellectually.
July 22 at 2:36pm · Like


Sophia That batman bit ...... Oh so the part of me that is looking and perceiving me? That "me" bit is not real? It's not real.
July 22 at 2:37pm · Like


Rohit ask! investigate!
July 22 at 2:37pm · Like


Rohit HOW DO YOU SAY THAT?
July 22 at 2:37pm · Like


Rohit What is SOPHIA? what does it point to? LOOK
July 22 at 2:38pm · Like


Sophia Holy crap so all the thoughts about me are real but I AM NOT ACTUALLY THERE!!! Is that the nothingness I glimps that makes me get this flood of feelings!!?? Is that flood of feelings like the pain of a death??!!! Cos I am not actually here but I have been telling myself this all my life?
July 22 at 2:40pm · Like · 1


Sophia Uhhhhhh ok reading back I see how in my head I am. Ummmm I am starting to get a sence of this non existence.....
July 22 at 2:42pm · Like


Sophia I will be back online in about 11hours.....
July 22 at 2:42pm · Like


Rohit right there.LOOK
July 22 at 2:43pm · Like


Rohit is there a "you" sensing it?
July 22 at 2:45pm · Like

Rohit OK.keep going.dont stop.i want you to be there.keep LOOKING.try to look at all questions before you post again.is it ok?
July 22 at 2:46pm · Like


Sophia Ok. I wrote down the questions I think I have not answered. And I have been looking at them. I might miss some off. I apologise. There are lots of questions!
July 23 at 2:09am · Like


Sophia De Fossard Do I exist. Yes. My body is here. At least that is what I perceive. So this perceiving separates "me" from the stuff around me. Otherwise. Without this awareness I would feel a part of everything around me.
July 23 at 2:13am · Like




Sophia Back to your question about if a tree falls without anyone to hear it does it make a sound. I dont know I was not there! But if I was then I see the tree. The tree falls. I hear it. It's my mind which makes these three things separate.
July 23 at 2:15am · Like


Sophia But.....
July 23 at 2:16am · Like


Sophia My perception create this 'me' but really, this body, does not exist. So I sound like I am contradicting myself. But actually I don't exist, sorry I sound confusing or even confused!
July 23 at 3:06am · Like


Sophia But the feelings are real. There are all these feelings and then there is something that witnesses these feelings.
July 23 at 3:08am · Like


Sophia Who or what sees the world? Well the world only exists cos I perceive it to be there. That goes back to the falling tree question.....
July 23 at 3:09am · Like


Sophia Who controls the mind.....
July 23 at 3:22am · Like


Sophia Stuck again
July 23 at 3:22am · Like


Sophia The mind is just an aspect of nature but all my feelings control it...
July 23 at 3:25am · Like


Sophia Who made up this idea of me? My feelings?
July 23 at 3:27am · Like


Sophia I don't know. I am stuck again. Can you repeate a question for me that you think I should start with. I am lost in all my unanswered questions!
July 23 at 3:29am · Like


Sophia Back online in the morning I am on uk time. Thank you so far.
July 23 at 3:29am · Like


Rohit What is the difference between batman and all your "me/i/sophia/mind/self etc"?do they exist in reality?
July 23 at 7:47am · Like


Rohit “If a tree falls in the forest and
there is nobody there, does it
make a sound?”
No…not without a perceiver.yes!thats the point if "you" are not there.
how can you hear/see/feel the falling tree?
who experiences your thoughts/feelings/sensations?
July 23 at 7:47am · Like


Rohit Is there an "i" prior
to the word "I"?
July 23 at 7:49am · Like
Sophia Whats the difference between batman and me/ i/ sophia/ mind/ self..... we'll nothing really. they are all little ideas pieced together to make up the whole. Batman in black lycra, a cape, black mask, super powers... Me, blond hair, loves cooking, mother etc.... they are all just ideas. The ideas a real to me, I feel them, etc but if I am not real..... then it's just a bunch of ideas....
July 23 at 11:07am · Like
Sophia ok..... i will be back later..... I am starting to understand this BUT my head is going crazy! I can't meditate (or even concentrate) I am flooded with rubbish thoughts like my "I" is trying to persuade me otherwise, that I can't liberate cos of this this this.......that that that!!!
July 23 at 2:18pm · Like
Sophia feelings are real, everything else is just illusion..... agggghhhhhhh!
July 23 at 2:20pm · Like


Rohit ‎"... they are all just ideas. The ideas a real to me, I feel them, etc but if I am not real..... then it's just a bunch of ideas...."

Is it true?

Can you be absolutely certain that it is true?

How do you feel when you think that thought?

Who would you be without that thought?
July 23 at 5:01pm · Like


Rohit ‎"that I can't liberate cos of this this this.......that that that!!!"

What makes "you" so important to think "you" could be liberated?
LOOK!
July 23 at 5:02pm · Like


Rohit ‎"feelings are real, everything else is just illusion...."

No-one ever said "everything except feelings is illusion.
what about "typing , walking, seeing , listening, the heart beating , the digestion of food , the breathing ,the reflexes" are they not real?
LOOK!what is real?
July 23 at 5:03pm · Like


Rohit How did you get to where you find yourself right now?was that your plan?
LOOK at this now...yes, what do you see ?
July 23 at 5:09pm · Edited · Like


Rohit What I want you to do is answer me with 100% honesty,
and only when the answer feels right.

No rush.
July 23 at 5:05pm · Like


Rohit sophia??
July 24 at 5:29pm · Like


Sophia hi! I am here..... just been attending to the practical life stuff, I will be online tonight to work on this stuff.... thank you for your patience ....
July 24 at 8:26pm · Like


Sophia ok
July 25 at 2:53am · Like


Sophia so
July 25 at 2:54am · Like


Sophia everything IS real, exists..... but it is the "I", the "me" that attaches meaning to it all....meaning built up from past events .... like when I contemplate it all, I am not really the centre of my world at all.... It is all going on regardless of whether "I" am here or not, and "I" have no really control because there is nothing behind all the stuff I think I am.....
July 25 at 3:04am · Edited · Like


Sophia So....
July 25 at 3:04am · Like


Sophia How did I get to find myself here? Long long long study, searching, looking, experimenting.... meditating, yoga, but mainly meditation has got me here, as I was having so many experiences of everything falling away, that my thoughts were just a rolling train and "I" was actually just a facade. It wasn't particularly frightening, it just made me curious into the existence of self. I thought I could look deeper but that is an oxymoron as "I" have to disappear to look deeper.
July 25 at 3:09am · Like


Sophia ‎"... they are all just ideas. The ideas a real to me, I feel them, etc but if I am not real..... then it's just a bunch of ideas...."
July 25 at 3:10am · Like · 1


Sophia is it true?
July 25 at 3:10am · Like


Sophia and how do i feel when i feel that thought
July 25 at 3:12am · Like


Sophia well..... kind of bemused that i have been so caught up in myself for all these years!
July 25 at 3:14am · Like

Sophia i feel like laughing out loud cos it's all so ludicrous and that we are all like this, caught up in the self, it's kind of mad really.
July 25 at 3:16am · Like · 1


Sophia i will be back online in 10 hours or so.....
July 25 at 3:17am · Like


Rohit Why is this true?

What lives life?

Look at the generation of thoughts, examine it thoroughly. See if that process is really happening without an "I" doing it.

do you exist as a thought? Do you feel your body? Do you have legs and arms?
July 25 at 6:42am · Like


Sophia Yeah I believe it to be true. That everything does exist in the physical plane but that all my ideas about it are an illusion because there is no "me" at the centre of the world. "I" am not in control as "I" like to think because the world continues otherwise. I attach all my stories, past experiences made up likes and dislikes to create this illusion of me. Life just lives by itself. There is nothing or no one controlling it.
July 25 at 12:31pm · Like


Sophia As for the generation of thought is it happening without an "I" ....Well there is no I. So thoughts happen anyway. Built up on the last one like a time series each new thought dependent on past thoughts.
July 25 at 12:47pm · Like


Sophia My body exists all of it it is solid and relatively heavy. But there is a sence of no "I" behind it.
July 25 at 12:47pm · Like


Sophia As for the generation of thought is it happening without an "I" ....Well there is no I. So thoughts happen anyway. Built up on the last one like a time series each new thought dependent on past thoughts.
July 25 at 12:47pm · Like


Rohit <Yeah I believe it to be true.>

Sophia we are not here to make someone believe in something, but to make you see what is true.
You don't need to BELIEVE in no-I, because it isn't a belief.
July 25 at 3:43pm · Like


Rohit The key is to have a moment of real human honesty of really looking, of real curiosity as to what the truth really is.
Take a LOOK at what I is.
Not the content.
What is it?
Where does it exist?
when i ask you to LOOK it means "to see things the way they are " and not by thinking or conceptualizing.
July 25 at 3:44pm · Like


Rohit ‎(1) <Life just lives by itself.
There is nothing or no one controlling it.
As for the generation of thought is it happening without an "I" ....Well there is no I. So thoughts happen anyway.>

How do you know? Because it's been said here?

i want you to compare statement number (1) and (2) and let me know if there are any contradictions?

(2)<That everything does exist in the physical plane but that all my ideas about it are an illusion because there is no "me" at the centre of the world. "
I" am not in control as "I" like to think because the world continues otherwise.
I attach all my stories, past experiences made up likes and dislikes to create this illusion of me.
My body exists all of it it is solid and relatively heavy.>

KEEP LOOKING!
July 25 at 3:45pm · Like


Rohit But there is a sence of no "I" behind it.

is there a sense of "I" experiencing the sense of no "I"?
July 25 at 3:45pm · Like


Sophia ok believe is a bad use of language. i can't put it into words. but when i perceive the world around me, it exists. but when i am sitting and allowing the mind to become still, everything just dissolves. no it's not cos i read it here. its the experiences that have happened over the years of all this stuff i am looking into. i know thoughts just happen anyway cos it's what i have experienced for years and years in meditation, as well as just everyday waking life. it's just easier to see then I am on the cushion.
July 25 at 8:36pm · Like


Sophia the contradiction? that life carries on regardless vs me being there to perceive it. like would it carry on regardless if there was no 'I' to see it
July 25 at 8:37pm · Like


Sophia stuck again or just not able to express with words
July 25 at 8:38pm · Edited · Like


Sophia it is not hard to separate the "I" from the arising and passing away of feelings, thoughts etc. this is seen quite clearly and have down for some time. "I" is empty. its just a void or a space around which is all the me stuff.
July 25 at 8:41pm · Like


Sophia do you mean if i take "I" away does everything cease to exist?
July 25 at 8:42pm · Like · 1


Sophia well yes it does, cos "I" have given it meaning.... but the "I" is just empty..... like 0 (zero I mean)
July 25 at 9:42pm · Like


Sophia zero "I" mean.... ha ha ha it's hard to get away from it.....
July 25 at 9:43pm · Like


Rohit YES! All perceptions are abstractions
of a separate perceiver(I) and as
such are illusions.
So,do you exist-sophia?
July 25 at 9:55pm · Like


Sophia no! Not "I"!
July 25 at 10:05pm · Like


Sophia Sophia does not exist
July 25 at 10:05pm · Like


Rohit There is a sense of self, a feeling, a thought, an idea... and when that is operating, it feels like being caught up in the movement.

And then, there is a movement to see the truth that there is not an ACTUAL self. And it's recognized again that it is a thought, a feeling, an idea. That's all.

It's always true that there is no-self. No I. It may not always FEEL like it. But it IS always true. And real.

Because something that is true can't ever be untrue."I" is not going to "go away" causing everything to cease existing. "I" has never existed, and everything else ALREADY exists on its own without caring.
July 25 at 10:12pm · Like · 2


Sophia Yes thank you for articulating that! It's like a perpetual circle- the being caught up in the moment, then realizing that it's not the actual self, then that is just another thought..... And so on.
July 26 at 2:32am · Like


Sophia Ok.....
July 26 at 2:32am · Like


Sophia I had a strange day contemplating that .... As I went through my everyday stuff with the kids...
July 26 at 2:33am · Like


Sophia Sophia has never existed.....
July 26 at 2:33am · Like


Sophia ‎!!!
July 26 at 3:38am · Like



Rohit When you type out "sophia does not exist..." - what is happening? Who is typing that? When that statement is made "I do not exist", what comes up? Describe the emotion. What does that mean to the rest of "your" life?
July 26 at 8:06am · Like


Sophia Well like I said before its a Perpetual circle- being in the moment, realizing there is no self there then that is realized as another thought in the moment and so on.... So that happens when I type Sophia does not exist. A mix of emotions. Surreal. I want to laugh out loud..... I don't feel like fighting it cos it's something that I have been exploring for s long time. Maybe a relief? It now comes into lots of my thinking, this extra dimension of " is it really important?". I don't have lots of but but but thoughts as I thought I might.....
July 26 at 11:46am · Like


Sophia More curiosity at how the world looks to me now. I thought I would be freaking out about my kids you know cos there is so much love there. But the love is still there , no fear, just love.
July 26 at 11:49am · Like


Sophia The rest of my life? I dunno, I still live in this world were almost everyone I know doesn't share this view! "I" am not switched OFF if that's what you mean. Hoping that the "I" in my life continues to take a little less centre stage. It had been starting to happen very subtly just in the last year.....
July 26 at 11:55am · Like


Sophia Hey thanks for this so far.... I am not going to be online well I think I won't for the next 16 days as we are off on holiday.... Can I take this up with your after the 12th aug? I know I have more looking to do! And I do not think that the work will ever stop!
July 26 at 11:57am · Like


Sophia I wish you well, back online in 16 days ..... Summer holidays here in the uk :)
July 26 at 11:58am · Unlike · 1


Sophia Back now.... Have been looking at all our dialogue so far...
August 12 at 5:06am · Like


Sophia Hope you are well. Will be online in the next day or so if you can resume this thread thank you
August 12 at 5:07am · Like


Rohit Welcome back Sophia :)

What’s going on right now? what is listening?

what is breathing?

what is thinking?

is there a doer ?

Is there really such a thing as self ?

What is true now?
August 12 at 9:19am · Like


Sophia I think I am breathing but really there is just breathing..... I think I am thinking but there is just thinking. I think I am the doer but.... That is the "I" getting caught up in the doing.... The only truth is that there is a no-self..... The "I" just makes up the self but really the world just continues anyway ......
August 13 at 2:55am · Like


Rohit If you look, can you find anything that would qualify as an
individual source of thought or sensation or feeling ?
can you actually find it

can you find a solid, secure place to pin this thing called “I/SELF/ME” on ?
August 13 at 7:52am · Like


Sophia no, not really....
August 14 at 2:46am · Like


Sophia self, I mine it's all an illusion.... but that's tricky cos to say there is or isn't a "self" means that it is being identified with in some way.... where as is it not the point to be able to let go of all this?
August 14 at 2:51am · Like


Rohit in what way is "self" identified ? and

in what way is "no-self" identified ?are YOU "no-self" ?

you believed there was a self ,isn't it ?

so ,where exactly did you look to find there was no-self ?
August 14 at 2:48pm · Like


Sophia What is meant by "you"?
August 14 at 4:37pm via mobile · Like · 1


Rohit You is simply a label you have been using to interact with the outside world .Sometimes people can trick themselves, dismissing the self or I, but really they have only abandoned the words or concepts, and have established an identity somewhere else.
August 14 at 5:00pm · Like · 1


Rohit this was your earlier post<< I think I am breathing but really there is just breathing..... I think I am thinking but there is just thinking. I think I am the doer but.... That is the "I" getting caught up in the doing.... The only truth is that there is a no-self..... The "I" just makes up the self but really the world just continues anyway ......>> i want you to explain this in a very simple way .as if making a 5 year old understand .write as much as possible .use multiple posts if you want .
August 14 at 5:19pm · Like


Sophia i will reply tonight...... so far my kids have given me blank looks on all my tried out descriptions!
August 15 at 7:22pm · Unlike · 2


Sophia Ok I have a few ideas none really stringing together but here's one.... Take a cup, like a tea cup. You know it is a cup and you know what it does cos you have been told by people, you have seen it used to hold drinks and cos maybe, you saw it and had an idea that you could use it to drink out of. BUT what if no one told you. No one showed you. And you already had some great way of drinking and it wasn't with a cup. Would that thing still have a meaning in your life? Would you care about it? Maybe not. That's like us, ourselves. Well at least some aspects. We make use of things we can do cos others have told us; cos we see others doing it, or cos it gets us stuff we think we want. It's ourselves that give things meaning. A cup is just a shape of something that can hold a liquid. But we give it meaning.
August 16 at 4:08am · Like


Sophia I don
August 16 at 4:08am · Like


Sophia I don't think a five year old would get that, maybe an 8 year old.
August 16 at 4:08am · Like


Sophia Theres more......
August 16 at 4:08am · Like


Sophia Think about your favourite movie when you were a kid. Is it your favourite movie now? Probably not. Your favourite food? Color? Music? Probably all different now. So you can see how these things are constantly changing. That you can't pin down your likes and dislikes or who you think you are. Think of something that happened a long time ago that made you sad. Remember that sadness. Remember how it made you feel. Now that sadness can be felt again for some things but the thing that made you sad has gone, it's not there anymore. But just a thought, a memory can bring it back. Only in the mind though. It cannot recreate the event itself.
August 16 at 4:15am · Like


Sophia But we can cling onto the sadness but that is just a feeling, it is not the event itself anymore. The event has gone.
August 16 at 4:16am · Like


Sophia Its like all these likes and dislikes, thoughts and feelings, they are constantly moving, changing, and this body I am in is constantly changing, growing, or growing old. Where is the "me" if all these things never stay the same.
August 16 at 4:18am · Like


Sophia Is there a "me"
August 16 at 4:20am · Like


Sophia Is there a "you"
August 16 at 4:21am · Like


Sophia We think stuff about ourselves but it's just thoughts....
August 16 at 4:21am · Like


Sophia The thoughts and feelings are real but this "me" behind it all, it's just a bunch of processes, not anything solid, unmoving...
August 16 at 4:32am · Like


Elena ‎Rohit
August 16 at 7:11am · Unlike · 1


Rohit Ok Sophia Good:) .you say <<and this body I am in is constantly changing, growing, or growing old. >> what is this "I" that is inside the body ?
August 16 at 7:33am · Like


Sophia The "I" is the illusion- as "I" is just a set of processes, then it cannot be solid, real.... Sorry it's use of language that is really binding. I shouldn't say "I" at all in that context!
August 16 at 11:53am · Like


Rohit SEE .There is NO problem with language or the use of word "I" .

I have no idea what you are saying .

Be clear .Focus!!

You've done well, sophia. Really well. But you've gotta be more honest.

Be 100% clear sophia.

Will it help if someone holds your hand and spoon feeds you the truth? and why ?

So that we can make you can believe it?

Stop trying to say that it’s true - as if you had a self to convince - and just see if it is or not.

You can't just SAY you don't exist; these is not a mantra or a magic word .

You're trying to believe. THAT’S not the point. STOP TRYING TO BELIEVE IT.

Just look if there really is a "you" ?

if you BELIEVE there is no-you , Prove it! .What made you see that there is no-you or no-doer or no separate identity controlling life in anyway ? Describe in detail .
August 16 at 4:06pm · Like


Sophia no need to spoon feed. there is no "I" in that needs to believe this. i know it. i experience this. i also do not need to prove it? there is no "I" to prove. Proof is of the world of logic. Separation. Right and Wrong. them and us. <I shouldn't say "I" at all in that context!> was meant as a light-hearted comment not a fundamental error. there are no mantras or magic words. Maybe you are looking for some magic sentence that I should be saying.
August 16 at 6:15pm · Like


Sophia there is no i inside my body.
August 16 at 6:16pm · Like


Sophia there are many paths to get to this point. there are no magic formulas
August 16 at 6:18pm · Like


Sophia with all respect of course
August 16 at 6:18pm · Like


Sophia your last comment- has been answered by previous posts. I have spent nearly 2 decades with metta bhavana and mindfulness of breathing. I have spent a long time building up a positive sense of self, and now I am spending a long time slowly allowing it to be dismantled. You can tell me to forget my past beliefs if you like but they have been the path that has got me here. Here and now is the most important. Though practice of the anapanasati sutra is where the first experiences of self as separate came into my world. A softening within. I intellectually understand a lot about self, sense of self, this is true. And intellect can be a burden as it can stop actual feeling and experience. But nothing has compared to the thousands of hours I have spent just sitting, contemplating. Intellectually I "see" the separation of self and non self, sure, I see it in me, in others. But the feelings, I can't describe. they have been pretty strong for over a year. The illusion of self. Sometimes my inner mind chatte r takes over, but in the last year it has been falling away. Becoming less. Becoming still within. Empty even. It has been difficult as well, life goes on around me. The world expects mind chatter. Most people don't understand I don't really talk about it no need i guess. I am not trouble by it cos "I" is just a set of processes no a solid thing. This has been a slow dawning for me over the past year or so. But here is the first time I am trying to articulate it.
August 16 at 6:37pm · Like


Sophia When I talk about "I" I am referring to the set of mental processes that make up the persona of Sophia, not some solid unchanging thing
August 16 at 6:40pm · Like


Sophia Cos that doesn't exist
August 16 at 7:03pm via mobile · Like


Rohit if there is no "I" , WHAT is doing all this looking?
August 16 at 9:33pm · Like


Rohit ‎Sophia
August 17 at 5:27pm · Like


Sophia There is just looking. Nothing controlling it. Same as thinking breathing etc.... I think I am looking but it is just looking.
August 18 at 4:53am · Like


Rohit GO for a walk in nature .LOOK how things are flowing ?

is there a so-called doer to do anything ?

what is living life ?
August 18 at 9:59am · Like


Sophia no doer. life just lives
August 18 at 10:51pm · Like


Rohit Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
August 19 at 4:54am · Like


Sophia No there isn't and there never was. It's just an illusion. The only "me" has been and is a construct of the mind.
August 19 at 2:20pm · Like


Rohit Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
August 19 at 2:29pm · Like


contd.....