Rohit and Andre

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Rohit
Posts: 272
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:57 pm

Rohit and Andre

Postby Rohit » Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:06 am

Nick Yo Andre! Welcome to LU Gate Facebook group. Please introduce yourself.
August 14 at 10:58am · Like


Andre Thank you for the opportunity to be here. I don't check FB too often, so I apologize for my late response. I stumbled upon Liberation Unleashed just this past weekend and felt immediately compelled. Prior to that I just had the usual stumbling that I assume most of us did/do. I'm not sure where to go from here, but I'm most happy to see what resonates. The hunger is here: the passion exists to know the truth, as it has for some years now along this so-called meandering circuitous 'path' that's been meandering in front of 'me'.
August 18 at 8:23am · Like


Rohit welcome Andre ,

I Will be working with you .

I have some basic rules and expectations.

BE 100% HONEST .

DO NOT AGREE TO ANYTHING YOU ASSUME TO BE TRUE INSTEAD QUESTION EACH AND EVERYTHING .

YOU MUST BE ENGAGING ON DAILY BASIS .

One important thing to ask is, that whatever teachings, beliefs or spiritual practices, you have acquired along your journey till now; Please put them aside until this conversation is over.

are you ready ?

What expectations do you have from becoming Liberated?

Your objective is to look at reality and

a) See that there is no 'self' object in the place where the brain assumes a 'self' to exist, and
b) See that life operates perfectly without the need of a 'self'.

LOOK at word "SELF". what does it point to?
August 18 at 11:29am · Like



Andre Glad to meet you Rohit, I am as ready as I can be now. What expectations do I have from becoming liberated? Hmmm...at first glance I would say to stop suffering existence and to know without a doubt that I am liberated and will continue to be so, without the perceived sense of restrictiveness to existence returning. What does SELF point to? Hmmm...this one is challenging - the mind wants to run, instead of look. At first glance 'SELF' points to all of this that is happening. Experiencing, seeing, feelings, thinking, the body, mind, thoughts, interpreting, the whole gamut.
August 18 at 7:37pm · Like


Rohit GOOD Andre :) .LOOK at your thoughts now .

where do they come from ?

is there a THINKER who thinks the thoughts ?

can you control/ start/ stop your thoughts ?

do you know which thought is going to follow the previous one ?

I want you to have a particular thought—the thought of “I” or “me.

Really experience this “I.”

Does it have the quality of something real or is it more like a memory ?
August 18 at 7:52pm · Like


Andre where do they come from ? I sense that they're in the head, and I can only assume that they 'come' from somewhere in the skull. But, I truly don't know where they come from - they simply keep appearing.

is there a THINKER who thinks the thoughts ? I used to think that I, or the 'I', was the thinker, but upon investigation a thinker cannot be located. Thoughts simply appear.

can you control/ start/ stop your thoughts ? No, there can only be a partial abeyance of thoughts. They appear and then there's awareness of them by the mind.

do you know which thought is going to follow the previous one ? No, never.

I want you to have a particular thought—the thought of “I” or “me.

Really experience this “I.”

Does it have the quality of something real or is it more like a memory ? I does have the quality of realness many times as it seems to be felt through experiencing, but it also is seen at other times as simply a pointer to what is being experienced. I'm confused about this.
August 18 at 8:19pm · Like


Rohit Look at the 'I' that has these thoughts.... that is doing the looking. What is it? Where is it? What is it made of?

Confusion is fine, Andre . What is having the confusion?from Where does this confusion come from?

What is the source of all the thoughts ?

what is "I" ? Can you find it

in the body or in the brain or in the skull ? or is it just another thought ?

Can you find this "I" right now?

LOOK Closely .

FOCUS!!

can you assign credit honestly to what you call "I" ,"me" or "self" ?

Take time .Answer with total Honesty .
August 18 at 8:46pm · Like


Andre Look at the 'I' that has these thoughts.... that is doing the looking. What is it? Where is it? What is it made of? ---- This is hard to answer. I'm not trying to be asinine, but if there is no 'I' to be found that is thinking thoughts, then how can the 'I' be looked at, as you suggested?

Confusion is fine, Andre . What is having the confusion?from Where does this confusion come from? ---- The confusion comes from not understanding how this looking is occurring. What is attempting doing this looking at 'I', isn't that just another thought? Isn't that just mind?

What is the source of all the thoughts ? what is "I" ? Can you find it in the body or in the brain or in the skull ? or is it just another thought ? Can you find this "I" right now? ---- Okay, again not meaning to sound asinine, but who is attempting the 'finding' of 'I'? Isn't that 'I'? The 'I' can't be found as a separate 'thing' in the experiencing occurring here, but isn't the 'I' the aspect of the experiencing that is experiencing the 'not finding'? Confused, still.
August 18 at 9:07pm · Like


Rohit That seems to be too logical.

What do you think "YOU" are? See that

IS "YOU" a real object?

is there an Elephant in your room right now ?LOOK

LOOK closely .is there an elephant ?

Now ,LOOK at the absence of "YOU" in life .

LOOK at the generation of thoughts, examine it thoroughly.

See if that process is really happening without an "I" doing it.

Why do you think there's confusion here?
August 18 at 9:49pm · Like


Andre What do you think "YOU" are? See that IS "YOU" a real object? ---- There is no 'Me' as a real object, just experiencing. The mind says that all of this experiencing (mind/body/thoughts/feelings/sensations) is 'Me'.

is there an Elephant in your room right now ?LOOK

LOOK closely .is there an elephant ? ---- I don't need to look to see if there is an elephant in my room because I already know through prior experience that there isn't one present.

Why do you think there's confusion here? ---- Again, logical or not, the confusion comes from not understanding how this looking is occurring. What is attempting doing this looking at 'I', isn't that just another thought? Isn't that just mind? There is no separate 'I' to be found: I know that as I've not been able to find 'it'. So, there is a processing occurring that is happening without an 'I' attached to it, or claiming ownership. Ergo, this begs the question that confuses me and causes angst: "What is experiencing this then? What is the 'me' that is confused? Can you help with this?
August 18 at 10:04pm · Like


Andre Ergo, this begs the question(s) that confuses me and causes angst: "What is experiencing this then? What is the 'me' that is confused?" Can you help with this Rohit?
August 18 at 10:06pm · Like


Rohit Ok Andre :)

Notice your breathing .how is it happening ?anything influencing it ?

do you have to make an effort to do it ?

When you are reading this ,are you making the heart beat ? is there a YOU listening to sounds ?

is there a YOU understanding this words ?what happens ?

LOOK .
August 19 at 5:17am · Like


Andre Breathing is just happening. The heart simply beats. Listening just happens. The mind/brain cognizes written words read. The body simply functions without my influence.
August 19 at 5:41am · Like


Rohit so is there anything you can influence?
August 19 at 8:06am via mobile · Like


Andre At first glance, I guess I believe that I can influence certain actions of the body. I can choose to get up from the bed I'm currently laying on. Also, honestly, there is a belief that I can, somehow, control thoughts that then cause those actions of the body. For example, I can say things to my sons and influence their actions.
August 19 at 8:28am via mobile · Like


Rohit Good .

see .As you read the writing here, this triggered a chain of thought and that chain of thought ran until a memory was located.

similar is the case with you and your sons .

in this case your son acts as an external stimuli to trigger thoughts .

lets see your control on thoughts :

you have negative thoughts ,isnt it ?

so can you edit a negative thought and have a positive thought ? can you ?

lets do a small experiment :

Ready?

Ok... don't think of an APPLE.

Don't let the image of an APPLE appear in your mind,

Go on..

keep going...

resist it....

so ,what is it ?
August 19 at 2:05pm · Like

Andre That's my point though. You planted the seed, excuse the pun, for me to (not) think of an apple. You influenced me with your words about the apple and I was then thinking about the apple. This is akin to me influencing my sons with my words. I agree that all thoughts are not controlled, if any, but the resultant perceived control of the actions aspect is hard to let go of.
August 19 at 7:59pm · Like

Andre You know, Rohit, I find this interesting. I've argued with my lifelong bestfriend over the last couple of years that we don't control anything. And, here I am arguing with you that we do. I realized last night that my argument about not controlling anything over the years was simply me parroting intellectual understanding that I learned along the Advaita/non-duality path. Obviously, there is still the belief that there is an I that controls things. This has been a good trigger to allow this seeing.
August 19 at 8:01pm · Like


Rohit < You influenced me with your words about the apple and I was then thinking about the apple.>

This proves that you have no control over what is thought.
If you could control thought, it would figure you would easily be able to stop this from occuring.
Why can you not do this if you are a thinker who has thoughts?
What we have proved here is the brain is hardwired to respond to the environment.

< I agree that all thoughts are not controlled, if any,
but the resultant perceived control of the actions aspect is hard to let go of. >

This is self contradictory.
Either you control the thoughts or you don't.
Its really that simple. You can't have it both ways.
Either you are flying the plane or you are not.
is there some kind of autopilot mechanism that kicks in as soon as you stop controlling the thoughts ?

< there is still the belief that there is an I that controls things.>

LOOK at this moment what aspects of thought can you control ? list them

All your struggle is to maintain identity .SEE how unreal this "I" or "me" is .

if "I" or "me" is real , what real quality does it possess ?
August 20 at 11:00am · Like


Andre This is good. "Either you control the thoughts or you don't
August 20 at 8:23pm via mobile · Like


Andre ‎(okay, mobile Facebook doesnt like my words ;-) This is good. "Either you control the thoughts or you don't. You can't have it both ways."
August 20 at 8:36pm via mobile · Like


Andre ‎(okay, mobile Facebook doesnt like my words ;-) This is good. "Either you control the thoughts or you don't. You can't have it both ways." I saw that there is/was a belief that I was in control of at least some thoughts. I see that there is no one here to do that, as it can't be partial control. If I had any control I'd be able to choose what I thought. It's clear that I can't. So I guess this means that there is no one here controlling the body either, since it's controlled by thoughts too, for the most part. There's still a thought inside though that says that I can control SOME actions of the body. I guess this is a quality I think that the 'I' possesses.
August 20 at 8:41pm via mobile · Like


Rohit haha .ok .

SEE .

What can you control ?

do you control breathing ?

do you control heart beating ?

do you control hearing ?

do you control seeing ?

do you control digestion ?

do you control circulation of blood ?

do you control the growth of your body ?

do you control thoughts ? feelings ? sensations ? emotions ?

do you control anything ? SEE what is true ?

DON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING .QUESTION EACH AND EVERYTHING .

you are doing good .:)

SEE what is really true ?

you will never find an apple or anything else in your mind , just thought about these things .

similarly ,can you find an "I" ,"me" or "self" in real or are they just another thoughts ?
August 20 at 8:57pm · Like


Andre What can you control ? You're being too easy on me here. ;-)

do you control breathing ? No

do you control heart beating ? No

do you control hearing ? No

do you control seeing ? No

do you control digestion ? No

do you control circulation of blood ? No

do you control the growth of your body ? No

do you control thoughts ? feelings ? sensations ? emotions ? ---- No, no, no, and no.

do you control anything ? ---- Okay, here's where it gets sticky. I don't want to say 'no' here. There's a thought inside that doesn't want to truly, seriously, and fully believe and admit that 'I' am not in control of anything. I can easily see that the functionings in the body are not being controlled by 'me', but there's still a belief that there must be SOMETHING. This seems to be an enigma.

Okay, thought about this for a bit. The only thing that still comes up is that I control the ACTIONS of the body. Not the thoughts, but the actions.

similarly ,can you find an "I" ,"me" or "self" in real or are they just another thoughts ? ---- I can't answer this until the action thing above is worked out. I guess I still think the 'I' consists of actions of the body. Not the autonomic stuff, but physical activity stuff. Like choosing to get up from the chair I'm in.
August 20 at 9:57pm via mobile · Like


Rohit LOOK.For example in conventional language you could say "I'm typing at a computer".
describe what this is like right here and now. are you, Andre, controlling typing right now, planning words and sentences and then transmitting them over the web?

I want you to take a short walk.Just walk around the room a few times,
you need to be able to walk freely but I want you to notice what part the thinker plays in walking around the room.
Just notice how much control you have over walking. Just go and take a minute to do this and then come back.What do you notice?
August 21 at 7:34am · Like


Andre I did it and I notice, firstly, that the actual act of walking is largely something that occurs without thinking about it. If there are thoughts occurring, I'm not aware of them. Secondly, I noticed that the movement of the body seems to be occurring all by itself. I'm not aware of thoughts 'step with left leg, step with right leg, step with...' or anything like that. Walking just occurs, The arms just swing, the eyes look where they need to look to guide the body. When I walked in my darkened bedroom I noticed that I had to rely upon the touch of my arms against objects more, so there was more coordination with thought then.
August 21 at 9:10am · Like


Rohit LOOK !! Did you have to think about each step that you took?
Did your attention wander on to thought as you were walking?
Did this impair your walking in anyway?
August 21 at 3:45pm · Like


Andre Okay, thought about this at length. Conclusion arrived at is that certain activities of the body occur without conscious thought, eg walking. Other activities occur with very very subtle but necessary thought, eg driving a vehicle. But I've already seen that these are not 'my' thoughts, so there is no 'I' controlling those activities of the body.

It just seems like the 'I' almost simultaneously gloms onto an action of the body, even those that require subtle thought, and says that "'I' did that". I can see why I believe that I am controlling actions of the body.
August 21 at 7:59pm via mobile · Like


Rohit so, WHAT is doing all this looking?

Does "I" have the quality of something real ?
August 21 at 10:06pm · Like


Andre Okay, admittedly, this is where things get very muddy for me.
August 21 at 10:53pm via mobile · Like


Andre Okay, admittedly, this is where things get very muddy for me. "so, WHAT is doing all this looking?" Do you mean, right now, with this confab between you and me? Do you mean what is this 'me' that is trying to figure this out and give you an answer to your question?
August 21 at 10:53pm via mobile · Like


Andre And, what do you mean by 'this looking'? This all seems critical to understand for me. I'm stumbling.
August 21 at 10:56pm via mobile · Like


Rohit <<But I've already seen that these are not 'my' thoughts.../ I can see why I believe that I am controlling actions of the body.>>

WHAT is doing all this seeing ?
August 21 at 11:00pm · Like


Andre My answer is: I don't know. I'm trying to 'figure this out', and the answer remains 'I don't know'.
August 21 at 11:40pm via mobile · Like


Andre It's not 'me'.
August 21 at 11:44pm via mobile · Like


Andre Something is seeing, obviously. I just don't know what that is.
August 21 at 11:45pm via mobile · Like


Rohit You don't have thoughts of self. There ARE thoughts of self.

Thoughts of self are only thoughts. They are not a self, are they?

They can't be, you've already said that they are thoughts.

If there is a you having thoughts of self, then those thoughts aren't a self, they are just thoughts, aren't they?

Look at the 'I' that has these thoughts.... that is doing the seeing. What is it? Where is it? What is it made of?

Doubts are fine . What is having the doubts? Where do the doubts come from?
Wednesday at 5:48am · Like


Andre I'm looking....
Wednesday at 6:58am via mobile · Like


Rohit Look at the process of looking, examine it thoroughly. See if that process is really happening without an "I" doing it.

do you exist as a Seer ? Do you feel your body? Do you have legs and arms?

Why do you think there's confusion here?

LOOK there is the decision to LOOK but it is not yours. Are you really taking the decision?
No one is supposed to look and question. It is just looking and questioning ?
Wednesday at 8:03am · Like


Andre There is confusion here because I'm telling myself that I have to mentally figure this out. But then I know that this isn't a mental figuring out or mental understanding because who would be understanding it anyway. These aren't my thoughts, so who or what is doing the looking? I can't get past that. It doesn't make sense after that.

When I really wrack my brain trying to 'see' if I can figure out who is looking, I can't come up with anything. But how can nothing be doing something - the looking? Argh! It's frustrating.

As you saw early on, I want this to logically make sense, and it doesn't. I want to say 'aha, I got it', but I know there is no 'me' saying 'aha'. I want it to fit into a nice neat package that I can understand, and it doesn't. This is very frustrating.

I want to 'get' this, but I intellectually know that I can't find an 'I' to call 'me'. So who would even get this by looking.

I guess I'm stuck, and frustrated. I want to answer your questions, but I can't logically think my way into answering them. I want to get this understanding or knowing or whatever it is on my own and I know you're pointing, but when I look I don't find anything, or more appropriately I 'find nothing'. That doesn't seem right.
Wednesday at 8:47am via mobile · Like


Rohit << when I look I don't find anything, or more appropriately I 'find nothing'. That doesn't seem right.>>
close your eyes ,now imagine a RED APPLE in your palm ?

when you closed your eyes ,did you SEE this image of APPLE in your palm ?

yes! you did ,isn't it ?

but, what is true ?

when your eyes are opened ,is there REALLY a red apple in your palm ? NO .NOTHING .

There is a THOUGHT about an APPLE ,but DO you really find an apple in your palm ?

SEE .There is a THOUGHT about LOOKER ?but is there a separate identity doing this LOOKING ?or is it just LOOKING ?

if there is "no-you" ,how can you find something ??

<<find nothing>>

that is really honest !

<<....because who would be understanding it anyway. These aren't my thoughts
, so who or what is doing the looking? /...I can figure out who is looking.../So who would even get this by looking.>>

LOOK ,is there a WHO ?

you are close enough :)
Wednesday at 3:38pm · Like


Andre ‎(Let me first say that I wrote this before I read your most recent comment. I didn't want to have this understanding be influenced in any way to lose the clarity of it.)

I took a good look at the frustration that was being felt. I kind of cobbled together all that I had seen with you here. I realized that there is no 'me' that is frustrated. Why not? If there really truly was a 'me' here, it wouldn't be expressing frustration that this isn't 'being gotten'. It would be doing the happy dance that this isn't being gotten.

So, the question arose 'Who is frustrated then?' But, even this didn't seem like the right question, because I couldn't find a 'who'. So it became 'what is frustrated', but there isn't a 'what' either.

There's just frustration being experienced. Period.

There's just an experiencing of frustration, by no one person or thing.

Does this make sense?
Wednesday at 8:13pm via mobile · Unlike · 1


Andre More thoughts:

It's such an inculcated belief, that there has to be someone experiencing this. This can't simply be. There has to be a 'me' that is obtaining insights, experiencing what is happening, interpreting sensations. This stuff can't be simply and solely occurring and happening.

Even writing happening seems to be too much. Everything IS. There is no 'me' interpreting what is. There is no 'me' inserting itself in between what is and what is experienced as what is.

There is no entity found to be experiencing this Is. There is just experiencing.

The belief, my belief, in the 'I', an 'I', is false, if that is even accurate as there is no truth to go against the false. Both are mere concepts.

The 'I' is thought into existence. The sense of self as the 'me' is thought to be real. It is 'made' real by belief and the 'resistance' of the me to 'seeing' simply what is.
Wednesday at 8:46pm via mobile · Unlike · 1


Rohit GREAT .SEE .You is an assumption for the cause of the experience that's being had.

It's a false assumption. There's no such thing as I, or you. It means nothing.

Life is happening, and it's not happening because of a "you" or an "I" or a "me" or a "my". It's just life, going on, doing its thing.

When you type out "there is no "me"..." - what is happening?

What is typing that? When that statement is made "I do not exist", what comes up?

Describe the emotion. What does that mean to the rest of "your" life?
Wednesday at 10:15pm · Like · 1


Andre When you type out "there is no "me"..." - what is happening? What is typing that? ---- I read your questions and immediately find the words 'there is no me typing, there is just the activity of the body and the brain that results in an activity labelled as typing. There is no 'what' typing: no entity, just 'typing'.

When that statement is made "I do not exist", what comes up? ---- The statement is seen as erroneous, for want of a better term. There is no I to exist, there is simply existence/what is, so there is no NOT existing - there just is what is.

Describe the emotion. What does that mean to the rest of "your" life? ---- Damn. This brings up stuff inside. I'm writing and using words that I've read so many times from others and from authors. I sound like them for the most part, but yet I can see that these are words that are so accurate and true. Yet, I feel somewhat afraid to fully grasp the truthfulness of this. This grasping would kinda make the entire spiritual house of cards come tumbling down in front of me. I'm talking like one of 'them'. You know, the spiritual gurus and doods that have their followers kissing their feet. It's like if I accept this I'm accepting that bs too.

It's all weird, I guess. It even blows apart 'my ego'. All that I've taken myself to be and thought of my Self. I've thought of myself as a spiritual seeker for about a dozen years now. Before that for another dozen or so years were other types of seeking in an attempt to end the suffering of existence. If that seeker 'I' goes away, that's quite the shift, quite the ending of all this seeking.

Continuing, this brings up sadness of the ending of seeking, the ending of the 'I'. But I know now that that's just a feeling inside, a sensation. It is what is right now.

I defined myself for 25 years as a seeker of some sort. Now, to have found that there never was a seeker to be seeking? It was all an (mis)interpretation of what is clouded by the mind and erroneous definition of the sense of Self? That's big. Have to sit with this.
Thursday at 1:41am via mobile · Like


Rohit Perfect .so, Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Thursday at 6:20am · Like


Andre There is not a 'me', outside of the belief that was held of the me. The me never existed in reality. The only 'existence' it had was through piggybacking off of thoughts and calling them 'me.

'I' was never born, it was simply an assemblage of thoughts taken as such. The thoughts of 'I' were/are more real than 'I' itself.
Thursday at 7:45pm via mobile · Like


Rohit <<The thoughts of 'I' were/are more real than 'I' itself>>

can you clarify this a bit.
Thursday at 7:54pm · Like


Andre Thoughts are real, but 'I' isn't. It only has 'realness' through thoughts. But in and of itself, 'I' does not exist, is not real, never was, never will be.
Thursday at 8:08pm via mobile · Like


Rohit if thoughts are REAL ,why is a THOUGHT of "I" not REAL ?
Thursday at 8:10pm · Like


Andre The THOUGHT of 'I' is real but the 'I' is not real. The only 'reality' I has is as a thought. Just like the thought of the apple is real but that doesn't make the apple thought of as real.
Thursday at 8:15pm via mobile · Like


Rohit Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

How does it feel to see this?
Thursday at 8:23pm · Like


Andre Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works. ----> The sense of a separate self, which is a belief in a separate self, starts/comes about at a very early age when the human is exposed to others' thoughts, opinions, beliefs, teachings, and statements. It's essentially adopted by the human without questioning or even being able to question the validity of it.

Over time, the sense of the self is solidified into a full blown experiential outcome and becomes the filter through which naked existence is experienced. It causes naked awareness to be 'seen' as what it is not, depending upon that human's previous mental inculcated conditioning.

It's an omnipresent filter that all of existence is experienced through. All thoughts, all actions, all body functions. The life that just is is unknowingly 'given over', for want of a better term, to this filtering without the human no longer being aware that it is happening, as it occurs over such a long time during those early years, and, essentially, until it is (no longer) seen through.

The creation of this perceived filter is seen as so unquestionably real and valid that it is never not seen through. Existence-ing becomes 'it'. This false sense of self then is seen as real, as all there is, as all there can be, as everything, without question, through the years of existence and life.

How does it feel to see this? ----> Actually, there's no feeling, per se, associated with seeing this. If anything, there's a great sense of clarity about this. It's like this is just and simply known to be 'true'. The knowing of this was experienced before, over the past few years, as an event of sorts at times, but this isn't that.

It seems to be best stated as "This is just the way it is. Period." There's no longer just a simple acceptance of 'this' because it was told or heard, as that never felt 'complete', or fully grokked.

This does.
Yesterday at 12:11am via mobile · Unlike · 1


Rohit How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
Yesterday at 6:21am · Like


Andre How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

(I would have a conversation with them, so....)

Him/her: "What's this about, this 'thing' you are doing?"

Me: "Well, it's not really something that I'm doing. It's more along the lines of something that is just happening."

Him/Her: "How do you mean?"

Me: "Well, again, it's hard to say, and I don't want to sound off-putting or anything like that, but I'm just trying to find the best words to use to describe this 'thing' that can't really be described. It seems to be a process, some thing that is occurring or changing, but yet nothing seems to be changing.

For me, it started with a seeking of something that others had told me existed, so that the suffering of my existence as a human could be stopped and ended, without having to put an end to the body. They couldn't tell me how to 'get it', they could only stumble through ways to help me 'see' or, realize, what it was that would help end this seeking of that ending.

It turns out that there truly is nothing to seek and that the seeking was getting in the way of this 'thing' that was 'found'.

Think of it like being a human and seeking air. Sounds silly doesn't it. Air is all around us, and actually all throughout our body, but we don't know it because we can't see it, or touch it, or taste it, or smell it, or hear it. We can only see, hear, smell, feel and hear the EFFECTS of air.

We see trees moving in the wind. We see clouds moving thru the sky. We smell foul air when there's smog. We feel and hear a breeze blowing on our face. Yet, we can't find air but, without a doubt, we know it exists. We don't question its existence. Why not? Because we know we're alive and breathing.

This is what 'this' is about. Something is 'here', everywhere, but yet can't be sensed with the body, by itself. But yet, it can be known, it can be 'felt' inside without an experiencing of it by the body. It becomes simply, a given, that it is what IS because it is discovered as what is true."

Him/her: "So why didn't you know this before? How come I don't know this?"

Me: "Well, it's not that you're living your life and living in lack because you don't know this. But we humans are experiencing the effects of not 'knowing' this clarity.

I experienced the effects of not 'knowing' this as suffering my existence as a human. Why? Because I hadn't yet seen thru the illusion of what I had unknowingly taken to be true about myself.

We're all trapped in the same illusion about existence, a 'trap' we didn't set and we don't know exists except after we've seen what's really here and what is. It's not our fault, it's just what happens to us humans as we grow up.

We are told stuff and have experiences as a young human that we unknowingly accept to be real about our self. We begin to think that what we are told and what we experience is who we are. This is reinforced as we grow older.

But, for me, there came a time, after serious and genuine 'looking', not with the eyes, but with focussed intent, I saw thru the trap. I saw the belief as just that, an illusion, a hoax, that had been played on me without my genuine consent. I saw that the 'me' I had taken myself as since I was a young child was false, in that it wasn't real. It was only an idea that I thought of myself.

I didn't disappear after seeing thru the illusion, things simply are continuing to become clearer with what was previously 'known' to be real. What is truly real is now seen, without the filter of the illusory 'I' that I had taken myself to be. It's all pretty cool."
22 hours ago via mobile · Unlike · 1


Rohit What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
16 hours ago · Like · 1


Andre If anything is to be considered as having 'made me look', it would be the frustration felt about not understanding this is in a way that wasn't causing frustration. I've felt frustration and anger about not fully 'getting it' for years now.

What changed was when the frustration was seen as just that: frustration and nothing more. It was simply a body and mind sensation. It wasn't owned by 'me', it wasn't owned, period. My entire life every feeling had to be assigned to 'me'. Every feeling HAD to be used to shore up the identity and that (false) sense of self.

When I was struggling with the frustration over what was being shown here with you this week, and it became absolutely clear that there was no 'I' that was frustrated, as there couldn't be (because the I should've been doing the happy dance instead because it wasn't being 'figured out'), and that the frustration of not understanding was just and simply that (frustration), then it just fell into place that there was just frustration, not owned by anything.

I saw that feelings were being layered onto this sense of 'me' to make that 'real'. And it just became clear that the feelings (in this case, frustration) exist, but there was no 'me' to be found.

It's like the me was caught with its pants down, and it couldn't pull them up fast enough to stop the revelation. I wouldn't be frustrated over this lack of clarity: I should and would be happy, right? But there was frustration. It didn't add up. It just made sense that the two weren't commingled. Then it was seen that there was nothing to attach to the I since the frustration wasn't 'its' feeling anymore. Once that was seen as well it then was seen that the 'I' didn't have a standalone existence. It wasn't/isn't real.
12 hours ago via mobile · Unlike · 1


Rohit WELL DONE .Thank you .
11 hours ago · Like · 1


Andre Next question? I'm on a roll. ;-)
11 hours ago via mobile · Like


Nick do you exist?
11 hours ago · Unlike · 1


Andre No, never have in reality.
11 hours ago via mobile · Unlike · 1


Nick WOW, cool, me too!! It's been fun reading your stuff, Andre!
11 hours ago · Unlike · 1


Nick Great job Rohit and Andre. We're going to take a break and submit this dialog for review by some other guides, standard procedure...
11 hours ago · Unlike · 1


Andre So....what's next?
11 hours ago via mobile · Like


Nick in the meantime feel free to rant and rave here if you have a lot of thoughts you want to get out, but i don't think we have any more questions.
11 hours ago · Unlike · 1


Andre Wow, you mean that's it? I graduated? Did 'I' finish at the top of the class? ;-)

But seriously, I want to thank Rohit for his tenacity with me and the guidance and challenges he posed. I am very grateful for this, overall. It truly is an experience, for want of a better term, that I see as not only pointing, but showing me what isn't/wasn't, and what IS. It was all very powerful.

FYI, I thought when I requested to join the group that it was just that: a joining, and nothing more. Then you two put 'me' on the spot with "okay, let's get started". I needed that push.
11 hours ago via mobile · Unlike · 2


Rohit Do you have any quesitons, doubts, issues, anything?
11 hours ago · Like


Andre Yes, thanks, I do.

I read Gateless Gatecrashers during the few days before I joined here. Elena keeps writing when a person is done with this, that they're now 'liberated'.

I know I bring to this a fair share of spiritual baggage that I've picked up along the way, but I don't feel 'liberated', per se.

I guess I've thought that liberation was an experience of sorts. But the closest 'experience' I had that did it here was the realization of the illusion of 'me'.

I don't feel different inside. I see certain things just a little 'differently'. Nothing major.

Is this typical? Can we discuss this at length?
11 hours ago via mobile · Like


Nick Andre, Liberation is not an experience or a state... it's just seeing the truth that there is no self and dropping the belief. It's not the end of the road, just an end of the seeking for truth or answers... so these thoughts and feelings of being a separate person will continue, they are habitual. But who cares? You've seen reality and you know its bullshit. This truth remains true whether it is immediately apparent or not.
10 hours ago · Like


Nick I had this feeling too, "nothing major"... imho most of the people who have huge ecstatci feelings of joy are ladies, not sure why. A lot of guys tend to go "oh yeah, of course, ho-hum..." lol
10 hours ago · Like


Nick I'm here today on and off to discuss if you like.

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