Time to die.

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George
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Time to die.

Postby George » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:40 am

More than 40 years of seeking. Absolutely everything has changed except two things: 1) Something inside has remained exactly the same since my first day that "I" can remember; 2) "I" remain completely empty-handed from the searching/seeking. Ergo, searching/seeking seems to be pointless and fruitless. But, if not that, then what? Maybe, with luck, that's what I'll find out here.

It's late. Going to bed now. Maybe tomorrow Santa/Tooth Fairy/Mystical Benevolent Force will have granted me a Guide. Maybe. Maybe. I hope.

- G

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Rohit
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Re: Time to die.

Postby Rohit » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:09 pm

Hi,

GEORGE

I have some basic rules and expectations.

BE 100% HONEST .

DO NOT AGREE TO ANYTHING YOU ASSUME TO BE TRUE INSTEAD QUESTION EACH AND EVERYTHING .

YOU MUST BE ENGAGING ON DAILY BASIS .

One important thing to ask is, that whatever teachings, beliefs or spiritual practices, you have acquired along your journey till now; Please put them aside until this conversation is over.

are you ready ?

What expectations do you have from becoming Liberated?

Your objective is to look at reality and

a) See that there is no 'self' object in the place where the brain assumes a 'self' to exist, and
b) See that life operates perfectly without the need of a 'self'.

LOOK at word "SELF". what does it point to?


-Rohit

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George
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Re: Time to die.

Postby George » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:29 am

Expectations for liberation: none. That is, I don't expect anything to change in the world, or in me...except for the living dialogue that goes on between "me" and life to come to an end. As liberation settles in and becomes an abiding reality, there should just be a lessening of sticky stuff; a growing, unspeakable ease to living.

Self at the moment is this action character that is involved in a give-and-take with life, and is a fool for thinking that life bargains with anything or anyone, but who is so invested in his storyline that he can't give it up. Intellectually, there are moments of understanding and seeing through it all, but in the next instant I'm right back in the show, involved and taking part as if I'm trying to accomplish or receive something.

I've read the posts where liberation has taken place in hopes that would turn the light on, but it hasn't worked that way. Like most others, I've been told and read many things, but insofar as my own experience, I'm still a participating entity. I feel like I'm swinging at shadows.

I'll be here every day, as you state. Plus, everything else gets put on the shelf pending the results of my own investigation as we walk through this.

Thanks for taking me on.

- G

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Rohit
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Re: Time to die.

Postby Rohit » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:43 am

Hi george ,
Expectations for liberation: none. That is, I don't expect anything to change in the world, or in me...except for the living dialogue that goes on between "me" and life to come to an end. As liberation settles in and becomes an abiding reality, there should just be a lessening of sticky stuff; a growing, unspeakable ease to living.
I want you to have a particular thought—the thought of “I” or “me.
Really experience this “I.”
Does it have the quality of something real or is it more like a memory ?
Self at the moment is this action character that is involved in a give-and-take with life, and is a fool for thinking that life bargains with anything or anyone, but who is so invested in his storyline that he can't give it up. Intellectually, there are moments of understanding and seeing through it all, but in the next instant I'm right back in the show, involved and taking part as if I'm trying to accomplish or receive something.
Hearing ,seeing and thinking are present, but the thing is: what is doing these things?
can you assign credit honestly to what you call "I" ,"me" or "self" ?
I'll be here every day, as you state. Plus, everything else gets put on the shelf pending the results of my own investigation as we walk through this.
Excellent !


-Rohit

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Rohit
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Re: Time to die.

Postby Rohit » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:45 am

LOOK :
Do you have a choice about what
thoughts come? Do you decide to have a thought and then it shows
up, or does it just show up?

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George
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Re: Time to die.

Postby George » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:49 pm

Looking at "I." There is an I/me, but there doesn't seem to be anything to it. I've been going about the daily business today, all the while keeping an eye on the I/me. My name? No. My beliefs? Hell, I can't even say what they are half the time, so no. Opinions? Nope. There is, as you say, seeing, hearing, feeling -- emotional as well as physical, conversing, interacting, but it's like this thing is here expressly for the purpose of functioning. There's nothing behind it. And, as I study it now, I ask myself if functioning would continue to take place without the I/me. I think it would, so then what is it I'm attached to?

Thoughts. There's just no end to them. They flood incessantly. Just try to stop them. Trying to stop them is a thought, itself. Attention can be focused on a particular problem or event, but even in that focusing, thoughts continue to come. There's no controlling them whatsoever. Even in a "serious" situation, unrelated thoughts appear and subside. What does the I/me have to do with that? Well, if there is not substance or reality of the I/me, that means that there are just thoughts. I don't know much about thoughts and the I/me, as it turns out. It seemed pretty straightforward, but maybe that is just an assumption.

I have to experiment some more with your pointers. My memories mean exactly nothing! Vapor...no, even less than that. If a thought or memory was real, why can't I share it with anyone? Can't be done. A friend and I see a sunset, but it's not the same for either of us, not exactly. And, if there are small differences, there can be big differences. Plus, the experience is colored by the thoughts, feelings, emotions that come up during the seemingly shared experience, coloring things even further, 'cause there's no way we're having the same of those things. The closer this is examined, the more flimsy it becomes.

I'll be back later. This is unnerving.

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George
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Re: Time to die.

Postby George » Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:01 am

OK, then, what about getting pissed of at my station in life? Why do I get so bothered -- angry -- at things that I have absolutely no control of whatsoever? Dog pees on the rug, it's hot outside, my mother is in a veggie state in front of the TV and feeding the animals on the floor. Life sucks. Except, all that has to have a frame of reference, and I can't find that frame of reference. Without the frame of reference, the action/situation and the reactions to it that seem to come from "me" don't make sense. Similar actions/situations have been going on for quite a while, and there are certain times that the I/me is otherwise engaged and is barely bothered, if noticed at all. There MUST be a sense of I/me in order to react in whatever way. Now, the question is, is this I/me real or not. If not, functioning would continue but without judgment or binding, heaving, impassioned reaction from whatever is the "not-I/me." I think I'm over-complicating this, but looking is looking, and examining is examining. I just saw hands typing that don't have an owner, so that's kind of weird because they happen to be attached to ... well, here.

Jesus, this is a lot of work. Feels interesting, though.

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George
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Re: Time to die.

Postby George » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:05 am

What if there were no "I" to personalize things? What would stick? Life would continue to happen, but the movie that is being shown would not stick to the screen. The screen has no quality before, during, or after the movie. The screen does not become bloody during a samurai film, it has no scent of its own, or flavor or color, etc. These things all happen and the movie is enjoyable or not depending on the movie, every detail and action/quality is experienced, but there's no experiencer...no "I/me." Certainly there's a movie going on -- they even charge for it. But, what do you have when you leave that you didn't have before? Nothing; the screen is in the same shape, too. The I/me is not necessary to experience the film. And, buying a chopper will not make me Captain America from Easy Rider, no matter how many times I see the movie. So, exactly who is here? Personality, memories, thoughts, feelings, beliefs, emotions, aspirations, fears, and a hundred more things, all of which change or disappear through no will of my own. Just who the hell am I, then? Yeah, I know all the lingo, and I could pass a test, but I don't have the answer yet -- not the real one, and that's why I'm here. Won't find this in any video or book. Lisa Cairns can't help me now. Mirror, mirror on the wall...who the hell is that?

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Rohit
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Re: Time to die.

Postby Rohit » Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:55 am

Hi george ,

you are doing great .keep LOOKING !!
Looking at "I." There is an I/me, but there doesn't seem to be anything to it. I've been going about the daily business today, all the while keeping an eye on the I/me. My name? No. My beliefs? Hell, I can't even say what they are half the time, so no. Opinions? Nope. There is, as you say, seeing, hearing, feeling -- emotional as well as physical, conversing, interacting, but it's like this thing is here expressly for the purpose of functioning. There's nothing behind it. And, as I study it now, I ask myself if functioning would continue to take place without the I/me. I think it would, so then what is it I'm attached to?

Thoughts. There's just no end to them. They flood incessantly. Just try to stop them. Trying to stop them is a thought, itself. Attention can be focused on a particular problem or event, but even in that focusing, thoughts continue to come. There's no controlling them whatsoever. Even in a "serious" situation, unrelated thoughts appear and subside. What does the I/me have to do with that? Well, if there is not substance or reality of the I/me, that means that there are just thoughts. I don't know much about thoughts and the I/me, as it turns out. It seemed pretty straightforward, but maybe that is just an assumption.

I have to experiment some more with your pointers. My memories mean exactly nothing! Vapor...no, even less than that. If a thought or memory was real, why can't I share it with anyone? Can't be done. A friend and I see.....
If you have never decided to have even
a single thought, can you still call them “your” thoughts? How can
they be your responsibility if they aren’t yours? They just showed
up.
.......Just who the hell am I, then?
It turns
out that it is not “you” who is noticing these sensations or noticing
this poorly produced movie called “me.” It’s not “you” that is
watching the movie called “me,” and yet watching is happening ..is it ?


You cannot meaningfully say ‘this is what I am’. It just makes no sense. What you point out as 'this' or 'that' cannot be.
You observe the heart feeling, the mind thinking, the body acting; the very act of perceiving shows that you are not what you perceive.
The sense of being an experiencer, the sense of ‘I am’, is it not also an experience?

-Rohit

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George
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Re: Time to die.

Postby George » Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:12 am

Analyzing what you say, it is true. There are thoughts, but there is no way they could be "mine," because if they were mine I'd have control over them. They come, they go. They are observed. That's it. There's nothing to be done about it. Then, is there such a thing as a "bad" or "good" thought? The answer seems to be that it is of no concern. I am not the author of the thoughts. Besides, judgment of any kind gets me deeper into the drama, not out of it, since any judgment is based on filters and pre-conceived notions (values, beliefs, morals, conditioning). No, then. The thoughts are not mine. No "me" involved in the thought process. Very interesting.

Yes! Experiencing anything and everything is only an experience, and the experience cannot be the same as the experiencer. And, all of life is an experience in some form or other. If all of life is being experienced, and there is no experiencer, then...there...is...no..."I." This is a little uncomfortable. I wonder where that is coming from. Something doesn't like this, but there's simply nothing to give to the something-that-doesn't-like-this; a beast that cannot be fed because there is no food.

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George
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Re: Time to die.

Postby George » Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:53 am

It occurs to me that I actually do/did have some expectations about liberation after all. Somehow, there was the hope or belief that unpleasantness in trying situations would stop. This makes no sense, either, because that's such a subjective judgment. Unpleasant to whom? I have to be more complete in looking into myself from now on. There appear to be more unexamined imprints and conditioning than I realized. I'm feeling small...as in I've been found out. No matter.

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Rohit
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Re: Time to die.

Postby Rohit » Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:38 pm

Hi george ,

Analyzing what you say, it is true.
There are thoughts, but there is no way they could be "mine," because if they were mine I'd have control over them.
They come, they go. They are observed. That's it.
There's nothing to be done about it.
Then, is there such a thing as a "bad" or "good" thought?
The answer seems to be that it is of no concern.
I am not the author of the thoughts.
Besides, judgment of any kind gets me deeper into the drama, not out of it, since any judgment is based on filters and pre-conceived notions (values, beliefs, morals, conditioning).
No, then. The thoughts are not mine.
No "me" involved in the thought process.
Very interesting
What is the source of all the thoughts ?
what is "I" ? Can you find it
in the body or in the brain ? or is it just another thought ?
Can you find this "I" right now?
Yes! Experiencing anything and everything is only an experience,
and the experience cannot be the same as the experiencer.
And, all of life is an experience in some form or other.
If all of life is being experienced, and there is no experiencer, then...there...is...no..."I."
This is a little uncomfortable.
I wonder where that is coming from.
Something doesn't like this, but there's simply nothing to give to the something-that-doesn't-like-this; a beast that cannot be fed because there is no food
are "you" responsible for the uncomfortable sensation ?did "you" choose to have it ?

are "YOU" making any choices?

When you actually look in this moment,is there
such a thing as “you/I/SELF” making any choices ?

LOOK closely .
It occurs to me that I actually do/did have some expectations about liberation after all.
Somehow, there was the hope or belief that unpleasantness in trying situations would stop.
This makes no sense, either, because that's such a subjective judgment.
Unpleasant to whom? I have to be more complete in looking into myself from now on.
There appear to be more unexamined imprints and conditioning than I realized.
I'm feeling small...as in I've been found out. No matter.
Everything that you are talking about
letting go of, did you ever really had any of it?

Did you have to let go of believing in Santa Claus?

You had a fantasy of Santa
Claus, but what did you have really?

What are you referring to when you say
“I'm feeling small”? What does "I" refer to? Or when you say “I've been found out”? what is this I?

Keep LOOKING !


-Rohit

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George
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Re: Time to die.

Postby George » Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:34 am

Like most children, there was a fantasy belief in Santa Claus. It just became apparent that there no such thing. There was no evidence, only rumors and the acting out of others. Now, similarly, there is no evidence of an I/me, either. Everyone acts as if there is, and conditioning and beliefs carry that momentum. However, when it is examined, I can't find I anywhere. The feeling small -- embarrassed -- appears to be a mechanism to protect the fantasy I. That's all I can say about it; a shield was thrown up to protect an identity, but the shield failed. Thing is, nothing happened.

Thoughts arise. They are processed, but I still don't know where they came from. "Will I have mixed veggies with the chicken, or mashed potatoes?" The thought is processed, a choice is made, but I don't know where it came from, or "who" made the choice. All thoughts just seem to arise. I certainly don't willfully summon them, 'cause if I could, I'd turn down the spigot quite a bit. So, no, they just come. I cannot identify their source. And, about the choices, I don't appear to be making those, either. They are processed, the order is filled, but I can't find where I am making choices.

OK, right now: can I find an "I?"
No. There is functioning, but no "I."

"Be careful what you wish for; you may just get it." is a common saying. When the identifications that have built up over this lifetime begin to fade or crack a little, some fear sets in.

More looking is necessary to see the source of the fear...what if it turns out that I am not--that "I" really isn't? I'm making less sense now. Be back soon.

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Rohit
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Re: Time to die.

Postby Rohit » Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:41 am

Hi george ,


The simplest way to address this is for you to check :
who is experiencing this fear? If this “you/I” doesn’t really exist,
then what you are calling fear is not something you did either. That
also is something that just happened.

LOOK!
Fear is a mechanism. Working perfectly as a security system.
It is protecting something from being found out.

LOOK at fear and just let it be here.

Find where in the body it is being felt, bring it closer, invite it to share its wisdom.
It’s fine to just let it be.
Respect it. Bow to it.
Then LOOK what is behind the fear.



what are you afraid will happen, if "no-I" is seen to be true?


-Rohit

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George
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Re: Time to die.

Postby George » Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:06 pm

Nothing has any substance! All pursuits have no lasting, inherent value, they're just part of the play of life. Not plays, just play, because there's only one play going on. Insofar as the play is concerned, everything that happens is essential, but that's where it ends. There is no beyond the play, after the play, just the play. Behind the play there isn't anything but silence. No me, no actor, just silence. The loss of what is imagined to be me must be what the fear is trying to protect, but there is no me outside of the context of the play. There is nothing outside the context of the play. Life is living, and "I/me" is a part of that living, but it's all automatic.

I thought I was doing this wrong, but spent some time with the book, Gateless Gatecrashers that arrived yesterday, and there is no such thing as doing anything wrong. The only mistake anyone can make is to not be honest, persevering, and trusting of what is seen by their own investigation.

This morning, I ran out of important things to do. I entertained doing some unimportant things that might have had some entertainment value to them, but that was a cop out from doing this work. I tried to imagine the value of doing anything, and it's all a sham. Reading books, fashion, culture, sports, education in any discipline at any level, social and familial relationships...nothing -- absolutely nothing -- holds water. Of course, as Ilona points out at the very end of the Philip story, the goal is NOT to disconnect from everything; exactly the opposite! However, involvement with life -- there's no one to be/get involved -- is the very essence of the life show. It happens best when it's seen for what it really is instead of mucking it up with false identities and pretended individualities...such as a George.

Mowing the lawn will just be mowing the lawn. That's what's called for, and that will happen. Wow. That takes the sting out of a lot of things, doesn't it? I want to do some more looking. "I" am not free yet, but these things are coming. On the other side of fear is relief. That sounds peculiar, but that's the sensation. There is no threat because nothing is threatened. Must look and see some more. This can get emotional, too, seeing that the toys of life have no independent life of their own. One life being lived in all of creation. That's it. Fascinating.


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