Help with ending the search?

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Roger
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Help with ending the search?

Postby Roger » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:30 am

I'm looking for a guide. This is my first post, and so I'm not sure how much info to include here. I'll just keep it brief for now...

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vinceschubert
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Re: Help with ending the search?

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:05 pm

vince here Roger, give me a paragraph or two in what you expect liberation will be like.

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Re: Help with ending the search?

Postby Roger » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:09 pm

To be truthful, I'm not sure, because if I really knew, I'd be there. I'm a long-time meditator in the Zen tradition, and I have seen what meditation can do. For many years, I wanted satori or an awakening that would knock me off my feet. I was influenced by an early experience I had that essentially did that. At the time, I thought that the point of meditation was to achieve that kind of state. But what goes up, must come down. I eventually realized that grasping after states of mind, trying to hold on to something, just does not work. With the passage of time, all things change.

So now I have a steady meditation practice that doesn't seek anything, but I still feel that I am missing something here. Meditation is fine; I will no doubt continue it, but it has not resolved the fundamental question of who I am (or if "I" am). I expect that resolving this question would lead to a sense of great relief. I imagine it is kind of like waking from a dream in which there is all sorts of drama, but when you wake up you think "Wow, I'm glad that is not real--it was too heavy for me!"

That is where I am at.

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Re: Help with ending the search?

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:28 pm

Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on it all then Roger.
i will ask questions, and you will answer spontaneously. There is no right or wrong answers.
These questions will position you to recognise something.
We are not looking for an intellectual understanding, but rather an "Aha!" phenomenon.
I expect that resolving this question would lead to a sense of great relief.
Everybody has a unique awakening, so neither of us can predict how yours will be.
Now when i say "everybody" and "yours" etc., it is language convention.
When LOOKING for the answer to these questions, please don't give logical answers or paraphrase anyone else.
By LOOKING, use 'inside' eyes. It is your direct experience that is required.
Tell me Roger, when you meditate, is there a 'you', an 'I', a 'Roger' that is doing it ?
Where is the "I" ?

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Roger
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Re: Help with ending the search?

Postby Roger » Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:21 am

Ok, Vince: Something gets irritated if things don't go as envisioned in meditation, and something is pleased when things go well. So "I" is there. But where? When I ask that question, I don't get a clear answer, or place I can point to. Sounds are heard, sensations are felt, thoughts happen. The "I" is elusive.

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Re: Help with ending the search?

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:34 am

Something gets irritated if things don't go as envisioned in meditation, and something is pleased when things go well.
Roger, there is a big presumption in this statement.
It's easy to see that there is conditional irritation or pleasure, because that is experiencing something. They are physical sensations that you have attached labels to. Labels that describe the complexity and process of the sensations. But,
but to arrive at a conclusion that a self (something) is having the experience, is a story.
Can you find that something ? (experience it)

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Roger
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Re: Help with ending the search?

Postby Roger » Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:01 am

Yes, ok, that is right. It is kind of like the "something" is assumed to be there, but once examined closely, piece by piece, nothing seems to constitute the entire "something". Memory plays a big role in it. I recall sitting down to meditate, as I've done before, then same posture, breathing, must be the same "something" because it seems it was always so...It is a story. But in this present moment, what is the "something"? I don't find anything beyond the sensations, perceptions, and self-talk.

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Re: Help with ending the search?

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:07 am

I don't find anything beyond the sensations, perceptions, and self-talk.
So Roger, is there a self ? Was there ever ? or was it always just sensations, perceptions etc ? plus an intricate story about Roger that was taken as a given ?

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Roger
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Re: Help with ending the search?

Postby Roger » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:05 am

Thanks for this question. I'm awed by it. If I clear out all of the story, what am I doing now? The legend of Roger may be dead, and yet nothing is different, and life continues.. But if there NEVER WAS a "Roger"...this seems both amazing and funny at the same time.

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Re: Help with ending the search?

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:13 am

So Roger, how does it feel to see through the illusion of a self ?
Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

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Re: Help with ending the search?

Postby Roger » Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:36 pm

Vince: I wrote a reply to this, then posted it, but lost it because I was not logged in.
Had a laugh about that....Here goes again:

How does it feel? It is not what I expected. I expected a change in mind from "this"
to "this", along with a deep emotional experience. Instead, the key is in the NEVER
WAS part. Dropping Roger/self needs no fanfare because it never was. In fact, there
is not even anything to point to that constitutes "dropping it"; something that never
was cannot be moved. Then there is a comical aspect to this. Roger/self requires
high maintenance; it is at the root of all sorts of emotions, happiness, sadness,
anger, joy, and so forth, but the root is not there! It is like an actor who learns
to play a role so well, that he forgets it is a role; now it is his life, it is him.
Where did the script come from?

When does it start? This is a mystery to me. It seems to already be in place when
I wake up. It is then reinforced throughout the day by thought, and by meeting the
expectations of people I deal with. It also seems to have a long history... but it
is an illusion. The implications of this basic fact are not yet clear to me. I am
still looking..

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Re: Help with ending the search?

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:55 pm

Beautiful Roger, a welling up of emotion happened as i read your reply.
How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

What was the last bit that tipped you over, that triggered the 'seeing' ?

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Roger
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Re: Help with ending the search?

Postby Roger » Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:04 am

Thank you for your ongoing help with this, Vince. I am most
grateful.

Now to describe this to someone who has never heard about
the illusion, you could use the metaphor of "waking from
a dream", which was an idea that I had used in thinking about
what it would be like. It is useful because everyone has had
that experience; dreams can seem so real, and upon awakening,
it can seem so incredible that something that "real" is only a
dream. But after looking, the "dream" metaphor is not quite
right. In ordinary experience, the dream is one state of mind,
and waking from the dream means returning to the "real" self,
a different state of mind. Ending the Roger/self illusion is
a bit different than this. You are seeing through the dreamer,
but you are not replacing it with a "real" self. This point
would be hard to convey I think.

Rather than showing a picture of it or using a metaphor, it
is more direct to have the person see it on their own. That
would involve first convincing them that there might be more
(or less!) than meets the eye when it comes to the "self".
The really hard part is getting to that initial point of being
willing to even entertain the notion of "self as illusion".
After all, it seems like an absurd project, like making oneself
disappear! But once you are past that initial hurdle, you
might make progress by systematically showing the unreality of
each of their ideas about what they are. Is the "self" your
physical body? Is the "self" your mind? Is the "self" your
soul? Where is your soul? Show me. Eventually they will
realize that there is nothing they can point to that is
their "essence", their "self".

I don't know if this would work; I've never been in a position
of trying to fully explain this to anyone else in hopes that
they would actually come to see the illusion.

You asked about the last bit that tipped the seeing. For me
it was seeing the difference (finally) between the project
of eliminating something called self, which implies time,
effort, practice, and activity at some level, and the
realization of NEVER WAS. I'm looking at NEVER WAS again,
as I have in the past 24 hours or so. It is so simple,
right under my nose. But I wanted something more, an
achievement that I would gain through my efforts. It just
isn't like that.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Help with ending the search?

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:00 pm

Roger, the procedure here is to get 3 others to confirm that you have passed through the gateless gate, then you will be invited to join a Facebook group where 'gatecrashers' support each other. They have happened.

There are many new 'skills' to be considered as you are entering a whole new world now.
Anyway, lots of this kind of processing happens in Unleashed, so "friend" me on Facebook and i will invite you to join.
https://www.facebook.com/vince.schubert
Here is another forum that is set up for newly liberated.
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... m.php?f=30
and a small doc worth reading here; http://liberationunleashed.com/PDF/Awakened.pdf
and a great video here; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E

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Roger
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Re: Help with ending the search?

Postby Roger » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:48 pm

Thanks Vince, that sounds fine. But I'm not on Facebook, so I'm not sure how to proceed. I will
look at the stuff you linked.


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