Ready for a guide and to begin..

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kristin
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Ready for a guide and to begin..

Postby kristin » Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:15 am

My name is Kristin and I am very excited to begin this process. I am very hopeful that I too will be able to see reality for what it is and leave this illusion I have been living behind.

I have been on my spiritual journey for a few years now and have enjoyed much of my learning and the inner peace that sometimes is present as a result. I am devoted to my meditation and take what I can get from it always with the hope that one day I will wake up and really transcend my ego.. sadly this has yet to be the case.

I am a nurse who specializes in psychiatry and much of my journey has seemed to go against the grain of all I have been taught within the scientific/medical model. I want to see that there is no me but admit that I am afraid that I might switch roles and become the patient as a result. I also have a fear that I am going to be the one person who cannot wake up and this makes me sad as well.

If you can help me I would be ever so grateful.

Thank you so much,
Kristin

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Bill
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Re: Ready for a guide and to begin..

Postby Bill » Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:09 am

Hello Kristin,

Yes, I'd be happy to work with you and point the way.
If you have the desire and willingness, you will more than likely be successful.
I doubt you'll be that one person that can't see.

We're just going to look at the truth of everyday reality, what you can actually see
with your own two eyes.
Whatever your spriritual practice is now, if you can just put that on the back burner while
you're here, that will be good. Meditation is fine.

I ask that you commit to posting at least once a day to keep up the continuity.
Also ask that you answer all the questions I give you as we build as we go with them
Give the answers only from your own direct experience. Not from any teachings, books
gurus or the like. Just what actually comes up for you for real.

If that is agreeable, lets go ahead with the first question.
Its a good one too.

Tell me Kristin, what comes up for you, thoughts, feelings, emotions, sensations when I tell you that
there is no 'you' at all in reality.
No you living your life.
No you to get enlightened.
There's just life, flowing.
What's your reaction to this?
Tell all that comes up for you.

Bill

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kristin
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Re: Ready for a guide and to begin..

Postby kristin » Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:14 pm

Hi Bill,

Thank you for agreeing to work with me to see the truth.

The thought of no me is a little sureal initially- I have been trying to think about this and just the thought makes me start to question my sanity...I guess it is an initial fear how could that be possible.. no me? It seems that I am- I think thoughts I make decisions I have atrributes and abilities that are different from others.

I also feel a sense of excitement that this could be true because the total self absorption in myself has felt old and irritating for a long time now. Not having to get enlightened would be like giving up an addiction I think!

Mostly I feel confusion and fear- it seems somehow different when you pose the question directly to me than when I read someone elses response- I guess this is just how attached I am to me. It is hard to think that life is just flowing through me like energy might flow into a toaster or a blender- I feel so unique and manipulate my environment. So if there is no me then who is the thinker of these thoughts and responses?

Thank you,

Kristin

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Bill
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Re: Ready for a guide and to begin..

Postby Bill » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:18 pm

Kristin,

Yes this can be a bit scarry...without a 'me' what would be left?
I can assure you there will be enough of a me left to operate in the world.
The illusion is seen through, but not destroyed.

We have believed all along that this 'I' is a real thing. But we're going to find that its
only a thought we've been led to believe since we were about two years old.
We can look really hard but not find this 'I' in reality.

Its good that this enlightenment goal is an addiction.
The desire to see this is the most important thing.
This will serve you well as we go along...

About this question,
"So if there is no me then who is the thinker of these thoughts and responses?"
We'll come back to that in just a little while... Soon in fact.

Kristin, since thoughts are of primary importance
We are going to do some further looking at thoughts.


1) Can you look carefully and tell me where thoughts arise, for you?
Can you see a point of origin, in reality?

2) Looking at the thoughts, do they all start out with an I attached, or does the I attach to the thought somewhere? In other words, are they all about you?

3) Try this small exercise. Look at the computer.
Is it truer to say, it is A computer? or a MY computer?

Can you attach a computer to a self? If so, how do we do it?
How do we possess something? What is the process?

Answer from your direct experience, whatever is true for you.


Two aids which I've found very helpful for people are these:

First a pdf written by Ilona and Elena compiling 21 conversations
from the forum. Very helpful. "Gateless Gatecrashers"

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/PDF/ ... ashers.pdf

second a very helpful video from one of our members on how to LOOK.
this is worth watching a few times, its only 5 min... excellent

http://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Ur1c


Bill

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kristin
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Re: Ready for a guide and to begin..

Postby kristin » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:30 pm

Hi Bill,

I feel like I am trying so hard to answer from my gut and not over analyze what you ask me.

My initial thought was that my thoughts arise from my brain.. but this is just where I perceive them I guess. The thoughts just appear they seem to just float into my awareness. Once they are here I seem to label them as mine and identify with them as being a part of me. I seem to make the thought mine very quickly after the thought floats in- I immediatly label it as my own.
When I look at the computer - I initially see my computer but it is absolutley just a computer not a "my computer"..

I have watched the video you recommend a few times and it is very good, I am reading the pdf as well. These make me feel there is hope and I believe that there is truth here it just seems to elude me...but I will keep reading and pondering these ideas..

Thank you,

Kristin

Kristin

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Bill
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Re: Ready for a guide and to begin..

Postby Bill » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:07 pm

Kristin,

Thanks for the quick response.
Am going out for the day after this so you may not hear back from me until Monday.
I am on the west coast of US... What is your time zone?
Normally, we should be able to get in at least one good post a day each, and
don't worry... It all seems to go at the correct pace, whatever it turns out to be.

Yes, please don't overanalyze your answers. Just your first reaction is usually
what is going on for you and true.. Your answers were perfect.

So looking at thoughts, we can't really find an origin point.
It appears we are thinking them, but are we?

Do you know what your next thought will be? For real. not a contrived situation.
How about sometimes some weird thoughts come in... where did they come from? You chose them?
Can you stop your thoughts from arising?
Yes sure, there is this seemining control.
But is it true?
Is is really true?
Are you really in control of your thoughts?
Check for yourself.

We look at the nature of thoughts and see, just like your first reaction
that they are almost always possessive in nature, about me, mine or I
in some shape or form.

Thoughts arise, labels are put on the thoughts and we have ownership.
Ownership is just another thought.
All possession is through thought alone.


Ponder this for the day:

Well its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.


So you have a bit to do for the rest of today, along with
The pdf book, as far as you can get in it will be very helpful to you...

Bill

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kristin
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Re: Ready for a guide and to begin..

Postby kristin » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:57 am

Hi Bill,

I hope you enjoyed your Sunday. I am on Eastern standard time in Ontario Cananda.

You ask if I know what my next thought will be and mostly I don't they will usually just float in when I examine this. However when I decide to consider something like the questions you ask than somehow "I" feels in charge of these thoughts. For instance if I am answering a question for a co-worker- I am providing knowlege that I have previously learned and this feels like it is my knowlege and that the answers come from my thoughts. I realize this is not what I am to learn here but it is how I still feel. That being said I am never really certain what thought or idea might arise and I am unable to stop a thought mid thought. So therefore I am not really in control of my thoughts. I should know this from meditation because the more I want to stop my thoughts the more they flow in and take over - even when they are not welcome. Just when I try to quiet my mind in comes a thought ready to demand attention...

I have pondered the thought you provided:"
"Well its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple."

Sadly it is not yet that simple.. I can think the thought that there is no "I"- but then" I" wants to weigh in on this."I" feels that it is at the helm at all times- is answering the questions and pondering the thought you provided..."I" is doing the homework.
I will keep pondering this and reading the pdf... other peoples success stories fill me with hope especially when so many people struggled with the same quesitons and fixed ideas that I do..
Thank you for your time,
Kristin

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Bill
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Re: Ready for a guide and to begin..

Postby Bill » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:07 am

Hi Kristin,

Liberation is not a thought, a feeling or a state. Its really so ordinary that we have almost totally missed it. I can't convince you of it, in fact the only way I can help is to point you in the right direction to look so you can see it for yourself. You have to do the seeing.
it is through direct experience that it is seen. Its like we want you to look with fresh eyes at the truth of common everyday experience. Like a child sees... without any bias.
Its not hidden. Its just a shift in perspective.
Do not expect fireworks. they may not happen. Each person is different.
All of the emotions we have had in the past are still here.. it just seems there is much less stickiness to them.

So to sum up our look at thoughts...we don't seem to know where they come from
It seems like they are ours but we can't stop them
If we look at what's real, we can't really say we are in charge of them
Yes, there's seeming control, but not ultimate control.
We don't know what our next thought will be.
We can't stop our thoughts.

Also most all of our thoughts are possessive
in the sense that they are about us, in some way shape or place.
Not all, to be sure, but most all.
And ownership, possession is really not possible without a thought.We have believed all along that this 'I' is a real thing. But we're going to find that its
only a thought we've been let to believe since we were about two years old. We can
look really hard but not find this 'I' in reality.

Do you see how literaly all thoughts are stories?
We see, a label is put on what we see, and a story is developed.
Every thought is essentially past tense in its nature.
Describing something that has happenend in the past.
The only thing that is real is what is happening right now and here.
To see this we need a willingness to see that what we
might have been thinking all along is wrong.
Or at least open to the possibility that we have been wrong.
We need a willingness to see prior to labels being put on what we see.
We only need a very short amount of this 'pure' perception or SEEING
to see that I is truly illusory in nature.

Now how about the body? Is that owned and controlled in reality, by a self?

Now lets look at it and see if there is an owner or entity controlling it.
Lift one of your hands. either one.
Move it to the right. Now move it left. Look with your eyes what is happening. Did a self move the hand?
Or did the hand just move?
Direct observation. Move it again. Check it.
Which is more true, the hand moved, or a self moved the hand?

Bill

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kristin
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Re: Ready for a guide and to begin..

Postby kristin » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:25 pm

Hi Bill,
I have been looking at the movement of my hand on and off all day! My first reaction is to say my brain sends the signal to my hand to move...but my brain is not "self" so in that case the hand just moved.
So the self did not move the hand.
A short answer for something that I contemplated on and off all day.
Thanks for your patience with me Bill.
Kristin

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Bill
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Re: Ready for a guide and to begin..

Postby Bill » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:02 am

Good work Kristin,

I is just a thought.
No doer can be found with true looking.
Life just happens.
We can say it's life, lifeing.

As you move around in your normal activities, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around.
Walking, driving, typing, dressing yourself, etc.
Is there a WHO living your life?
Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life?
Big difference.
Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.

Write it out. Try describing an activity like typing, or walking or some other very common activity in detail. Describe exactly what is happening as you do it. Is the activity controlled by an entity, or is it just happening?
So if there is no me then who is the thinker of these thoughts and responses?
You asked this question a few posts ago.... Try going ahead and answering it yourself.
Give it your best shot.

Bill

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kristin
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Re: Ready for a guide and to begin..

Postby kristin » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:17 am

Hi Bill,

Sorry I lost my last reply because I was not logged in so I will try again.

I paid a lot of attention to see if I could find a self as I went through my activities today. When I was driving hands steered the car, feet managed gas and brakes, eyes paid attention to signals from lights and other vehicles. This all happened and yet no self to be found. It reminded me of times I arrived at a destination but could not recall the drive- like it occurred on auto pilot. Strange my mind is often not even a part of the drive but busy with its own thoughts.

I am unable to come up with the answer to who the thinker of the thoughts and responses. This seems like an executive brain function and surely there must be someone in charge of such a complex process! However I search and find a brain and thoughts and words but again no self.. this is a tough one to wrap the mind around..

Kristin

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Bill
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Re: Ready for a guide and to begin..

Postby Bill » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:20 am

Hi Kristin,

Thank you for the update!
Lets look at where we've come so far:

No one seems to be in control of the body, so what is happening there?
No one seems to be controlling and generating the thoughts either.
So how is a choice made if not in thought?
Or is a choice even made at all?
Is something doing all this, that you can point to or locate?

Really take a good look at this.
Keep looking hard at it.


Well its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.

Anything more on this???

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kristin
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Re: Ready for a guide and to begin..

Postby kristin » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:05 pm

Hi Bill,

This is where it gets tricky for me;

"So how is a choice made if not in thought?
Or is a choice even made at all?
Is something doing all this, that you can point to or locate?"


I keep asking myself how can there be a choice made with no one to choose? I cannot find a self who is choosing likes and dislikes or making decisions at home or work. Yet somehow there is a use of all these thoughts and knowledge that has been collected over the years in respect to this life....
I will keep looking at this and respond tonight.
Thanks!

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Bill
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Re: Ready for a guide and to begin..

Postby Bill » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:51 am

Kristin... just respond when you're ready.
You'll know the right time.
No hurry on this.
just keep looking....

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kristin
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Re: Ready for a guide and to begin..

Postby kristin » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:33 pm

Hi Bill,

I have spent a lot of time reading the gateless gatecrashers over the past two days and thinking about the questions you have asked so I will now attempt to answer.

No one seems to be in control of the body, so what is happening there?

I guess that the body does what it does as a result of "lifeing"- I have never believed I controlled the breathing or the heart beat or circulation so I suppose it is not really a stretch to believe that the body moves and dresses and drives by the same operation and no director is required. This is beginning to make sense now.

No one seems to be controlling and generating the thoughts either.
So how is a choice made if not in thought?
Or is a choice even made at all?

The thoughts must come into the mind and the mind chooses the thought it will entertain?? This is all I can come up with here..there is no self to choose yet there are definite likes that the character Kristin has so the mind must choose with the knowledge of the story of Kristin?


Is something doing all this, that you can point to or locate?

No there is nothing that I can locate doing this othere than the mind receiving thoughts..

Well its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.


I intellectualy get this statement that there is no I. I is just another thought. I also understand that thoughts do not think... now I wait for it to click. I do believe what I am reading but the feeling of an I remains still within me.. hopefully you do not get too frustrated with me Bill!

Thank you so much.


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