Seeing Clearly

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freetom
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Seeing Clearly

Postby freetom » Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:50 pm

I appreciate any help you can give me in seeing more clearly.

When I look at my thoughts I can see them arising, and I can see that they are arising on their own. I cannot find a self that is creating the thoughts or has control over them. I can intellectually conclude that there is no self in control, and I can see how the thought of “I” pops up in thought to take possession of my actions. But somehow I just can’t see it clearly enough. There is still something there. Maybe it is the aliveness I feel. I feel there is still something there, even though intellectually I can see it is not what I call self.

Can someone please help me through this process.

Thank you
Tom

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vinceschubert
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Re: Seeing Clearly

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:08 pm

But somehow I just can’t see it clearly enough.
Gidday Tom, you just can't see it clearly enough... Enough for what ?
Tom, what are your expectations ?

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freetom
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Re: Seeing Clearly

Postby freetom » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:01 pm

I can sense that there is something alive, that is part of my being. And I can see the label that I use called "me" is just a thought. But somehow I still relate that "me" to this aliveness, and that just doesn't make sense. I would like to see this "me" for what it really is. When I look for it, though, I just can't find "me", so how can it be alive, how can it be real? Or is the thought and history about "me" real, but just not who I am.

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freetom
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Re: Seeing Clearly

Postby freetom » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:10 pm

It seems like if I just look at what is going on in the present moment, it is much more clear, but the more I think about it and try to figure it out, the more complicated and harder to understand it gets.

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Derek
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Re: Seeing Clearly

Postby Derek » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:36 pm

Hi, Tom,

I'm Derek, and I'll join you in this Three-on-One.

You say, "I feel there is still something there."

But "there is still something there" is not a feeling. It's a verbal proposition.

You have to watch in real time as the mind excretes the words "there is still something there." Then you'll see clearly that it's just a thought and not real experience.

So look, look, look. Can you see it happening?

Derek.

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freetom
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Re: Seeing Clearly

Postby freetom » Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:50 am

Thank you Derek
I can see this as a deep seeded belief, which as you say is just a thought process. It is almost as if there is a defense mechanism in play to protect the idea of Self. But it is really a learned process that is still believed. I will keep looking at this for a while to really see what it is and why I keep believing in it.

That was a great pointer.
Thanks

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vinceschubert
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Re: Seeing Clearly

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:03 am

It is almost as if there is a defense mechanism in play to protect the idea of Self.
Great Tom, Watch for the First thought that arises when you do the following;
mentally ask that defense mechanism why it is protecting the Idea of Self ?

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freetom
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Re: Seeing Clearly

Postby freetom » Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:28 pm

With your guidance Derek, I changed my statement from “I feel there is still something there” to “I believe there is something there.” And then I looked at that. That made a big difference. It made it more approachable. Then I asked what is that belief, what is there? As I looked and looked at it, I saw that there was a belief there was a Tom that was real; there was a Self that was real. So I looked at that. Then I asked “What is Tom, What is Self; Where is Tom, Where is Self?” I looked at that for quite a while. Then I asked “Is there a Tom, is there a Self?” I just sat with that looking at it. I looked with my heart and not my mind. I did not dissect what Tom was, I just looked to see if I could find it. This looking seems to be on the right track but I have not been able to see what this great belief is that I am holding on to or to see that it is actually just a belief, a thought. It is almost like I think what I believe is real, so if I believe it, it should be real. I keep looking at it.

Vince, when I asked the defense mechanism why it is protecting the idea of self, the first thing that came up is that it wants the Self to maintain control. That is the first thought, but I will look at it some more to see what else comes up.
Thanks

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Derek
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Re: Seeing Clearly

Postby Derek » Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:36 pm

Good progress, Tom! You are indeed on the right track.

There is a widespread illusion that thoughts, or beliefs, add to our knowledge of reality. In fact, thoughts or beliefs are "pasted" on top of reality. The mind secretes thoughts and then mistakes them for what's really there.

See if you can watch continuously for a few minutes, so that you're aware of thoughts or beliefs as they arise, and even from before they've arisen.

What is there before thoughts happen? Where do they go to when they're done?

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freetom
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Re: Seeing Clearly

Postby freetom » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:32 pm

I can't tell what is there before thoughts happen. It seems like the thought and the awareness of it are there at the same time. But I definately do not see a Self that is there before the thought, or any type of entity. Everything just is in this moment, there is no before or after. Thoughts just kind of dissapate when they leave, replaced by the current moment. For some reason there seems to be a storage of them in the brain, where they can be recollected, or is that just a present thought of stored thoughts.

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Derek
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Re: Seeing Clearly

Postby Derek » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:48 pm

Yes, a thought and awareness of a thought are precisely the same thing.

So is there a "self" involved in this process, anywhere at all?

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freetom
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Re: Seeing Clearly

Postby freetom » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:59 pm

Thoughts arise and the experience of the moment happens, and then a new moment happens with its unique experience. It seems pretty simple. Life just unfolding. No Self involved. How does the idea of Self even get involved in this process? Why does this Self pop in to try and change this simple process?

Is this a matter of seeing the simplicity of Life!

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Derek
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Re: Seeing Clearly

Postby Derek » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:57 pm

It is indeed all so simple! I'm glad you've seen it.

Some more questions for you:

(1) Is there really a "me," at all, anywhere, in any way, shape, or form? Was there ever?

(2) Explain what the illusion of a separate self is, when it starts, and how it works.

(3) How does it feel to see this?

(4) How would you describe no-self to somebody who is very interested but has never heard about this illusion.

(5) What was the last little bit that pushed you over until you saw no-self?

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freetom
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Re: Seeing Clearly

Postby freetom » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:50 am

(1) When I look at the simple process of life, it just seems all too simple, without the possibility of a “me” anywhere. In reality I can see there never was a “me” only an illusion. of one. That illusion was very strong at times but I can now see truth of its existence.

(2) This separate self somehow appears during the expression of life as another thought arising. If this thought is believed, it creates a self separate from the world. But this is just a story created by thought. This story can be very elaborate the more it is believed or it can be seen through for what it really is.

(3) Life seems to be the same as it was before, but with a lightness to it. This is new and the self continually tries to reinstate itself, but there is a peace seeing the truth in it.

(4) I would explain the simplicity of life and how everything unfolds in that ever present reality. How thoughts arise on their own without the help of a separate self. I would explain the attachments we cling to with every thought, as we believe them, and how these thoughts can cause us to believe in a world separate from us.

(5) I read many of the other posts and answered most of the questions in my head that were presented, that were similar to the questions I received, but somehow having to really look at it harder in order to give back a written reply made the difference. And just writing down the simple process of thoughts and how they simply arise with no help from a Self, I think made the difference.

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Derek
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Re: Seeing Clearly

Postby Derek » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:17 am

Welcome back to the home you never left! I will send you a private message inviting you to join us.


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