Enlighten me if you can! :-)

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Freddy
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Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Freddy » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:23 am

Hello there!

Are we talking stream-entry? Sotapana? Anagami? Or even Arahat stage here? That would be something...

Ok then, let me see the light! I want to stop getting caught up in feelings, ideally the sense of "I" will be destroyed and never show it's ugly face ever again... And I mean that Arahat-style... Can you take me there by simply pointing it out to me?

Would be something...

3, 2, 1, go!

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Freddy
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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Freddy » Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:40 am

Just noticed a French section... Might be more convenient for me to post there since I'm based in France... Please close this topic I'll do it in French! ;-)

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Freddy
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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Freddy » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:00 pm

Ok don't close it just yet. It's not going any faster there than it is here! I'm fine with either French or English so, whoever of you jumps in 1st, I'll go with this. :)

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Nick
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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Nick » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:21 pm

Hi Freddy, I'm Nick and I'm ready to guide you in English if you like. Your English seems excellent so I doubt it will be any problem. In fact, language is not much of a barrier here. In fact, our 2 founding members here at LU, Ilona and Elena - neither are native English speakers but they do just fine!

First off, I'd like to address your first post. You dropped all kinds of technical terms from Buddhism, specifically from the Theravada/Vipassana school. That is definitely NOT what we are offering here at LU, although there may be some similarities, and you will find that many of us here have a past or current interest or experience with Eastern spirituality such as Buddhism or Advaita.

So the answer is no, we are not offering "stream-entry", as it is defined by Buddhists. We do not teach meditation and we make no reference to the jhanas, nanas, or "stages of the path" that you may be familiar with. I don't know of anyone actively involved with LU right now who is publicly claiming any attainments (such as 1st path, 2nd path, etc.). If you are interested in attaining these things (which is an admirable goal), I would encourage you to look elsewhere. As you probably know, there are excellent online resources and communities for that type of stuff, such as 'Kenneth Folk Dharma', and the 'Dharma Overground' forum.

What we do here at LU is look at No-Self. You may be familiar with the idea of anatta from buddhism and this is basically the same thing. We offer help and guidance for people like you to become "liberated", which means to see and understand the truth of No-Self, to recognize it for real, not just as a concept or idea or goal. THAT is liberation. Does that mean an end to suffering? Well, if there is no-one to suffer, then it becomes a non-issue.

Ultimately, there either is a self, or there is not. I'm offering to help you see - FOR REAL - that there is no self. Nothing else. This might turn out to be a huge shift in your life; it may be the most important thing that ever happens to you, as it has been for a lot of us here. Or, it may be like "oh, that was it?" Certainly if you want to go on to practice meditation and attain stream-entry, I think that seeing no-self first could only help you.

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Nick
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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Nick » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:31 pm

If you would like to start, I have some expectations of you:

1. We communicate, via this forum, at least once a day when we can, with a commitment to keep at it until you and I are both satisfied. It may take a few days or a few weeks or months.

2. I will ask you questions to help you look. I expect 100% honesty from you in your answers. If you're not seeing it or not getting it, don't bullshit yourself or bullshit me. That helps no one.

3. Don't believe anything I say or take it as the truth. See for yourself, and don't quit investigating unless satisfied.

4. You will take a temporary break from any other spiritual activities - including reading books, meditation, visiting teachers, discussions on other websites, etc. This process here works best if you focus on it exclusively.

5. No more talk about stages, paths, or any other Buddhist jargon, until we are done here.


So, Freddy, please get back to me and let me know what you want to do.

Your friend,

Nick

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Freddy
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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Freddy » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:08 am

Hi Nick!

Thank you for wanting to help me.

There is a sense of readiness to do as you indicate until what needs to be seen is seen. :)

Real name's Frederic, you can call me Fred.

Release "me"!

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Freddy
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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Freddy » Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:19 am

It's bedtime for me Nick my friend. Will read you tomorrow... :-)

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Nick
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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Nick » Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:20 am

Ok, cool Fred!

Why don't you start by telling me, what does "I" mean to you? When I say "I" it also means me, mine, self, whatever. Please look in your own experience right now and discuss, what does this mean to you?

Your friend,

Nick

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Freddy
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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Freddy » Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:32 am

Ok that's an easy one.

To me "I" is whatever is experiencing that moment right now. It is the experiencer of sounds, smells, tastes, feelings, sights, thoughts. "I" is currently thinking about and typing that answer to you on "his" computer (that's "his" computer because "he" bought it a few years back with "his" hard-earned money and it's sitting in a corner of the flat's living-room "he" is renting), "I" has just woken up (conventionally speaking that is lol) and made himself a sandwich, "I" has taken a few bites of that sandwich, I "has now finished" that sandwich,"I" is considering what "he" will be doing today, "I" is finishing up typing that message, "I" hopes that this will answer your question.

"I" is directly involved into any and all experiences that's taking place, no matter what it is.

Kind regards,
Fred

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Freddy
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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Freddy » Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:34 am

Oh yeah and please add the experiencer of emotions to the above list as well.

Fred

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Nick
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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Nick » Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:31 pm

Ok, so I seems to be the experiencer. Let's look and see if this is true in real life or not.

Take thoughts for example. Really LOOK and investigate them. Can you control the thoughts? Can you know what thought will come next? Can you stop a thought from happening? Is there a thinker in control of thinking?

And, can you identify WHERE the thoughts occur. What is the location for the experience of thought?

Nick

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Freddy
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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Freddy » Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:10 pm

Ok, so I seems to be the experiencer. Let's look and see if this is true in real life or not.

Take thoughts for example. Really LOOK and investigate them. Can you control the thoughts? Can you know what thought will come next? Can you stop a thought from happening? Is there a thinker in control of thinking?

And, can you identify WHERE the thoughts occur. What is the location for the experience of thought?

Nick
Hi Nick,

No I guess thoughts just come and go as they please, "I" has no control over thoughts, I can only watch them come and go and react to them according to content and context, right? No it's not possible to know what thought will come next is it? Since they seem to have a life of their own... No I guess I couldn't stop a thought from happening, since there's no such a thing as an I to stop anything (this has yet to be seen btw)? In that case the thinker is not in control of thinking, he (it :)) is just "reading" the thought, making sense of it as it occurs, right?

I would say the thought occurs in the mind of the thinker. The mind is the location. The location of the mind seems to be the head area.

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Freddy
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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Freddy » Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:20 am

Hey Nick, I was reading some other threads here and I think I got it. Lol

Of course I is a figment of imagination, just like Spiderman, the Hulk or Santa! Where else can it ne fond except in people's mind, which pretty much means nowhere! Except in mind but mind cannot be found anywhere, can it? So the "I" is just that, a story, with as much consistency and solidity as any kind of thoughts, the realm of fairy tales.

Unlike what's real, seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching, that is known as true. But the "I" that was previously thought to be experiencing all this, definitely not real, cannot be found anywhere in the real. "I" comes from the realm of thoughts, which is nowhere to be found, it's a story like Iron Man and the Boogey Man!

So what do you think Nick my friend, am "I" through with this?

Thanks bro!
Fred (who never really existed at all outside of that label, except in LalaLand LOL)

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Nick
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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Nick » Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:29 am

Hey Fred, wow great post. Glad to see you've really been looking :)

Take a look right now at the thoughts and feelings that are occurring. WHERE are these thoughts? Locate them.

See if you can find the location for seeing, hearing, etc. when you hear a sound like traffic or dog barking, can you find an "experiencer" separate from the sound? Is there a difference between the sound, the hearing, and the hearer?

Write as much as you want, your writing is great and I'd like to read some more!

Btw happy Bastille day - seems like Fred is broken out of prison!

Nick

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Freddy
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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Freddy » Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:06 am

Thanks a lot Nick! Saw an amazing fireworks display tonight, notice how there is no I in that sentence as there was just seeing and appreciating, and that's all there was ... just like now there's just typing, thinking, that's all. No thing there really typing or thinking except body and mind.

The thoughts now, just happening, out of nowhere... just coming from mind, but where is mind? Nowhere, empty. So coming from emptiness can be said, can't it? No there's no difference, hearing people partying next door is just that. Where can hearing, seeing, etc. be found. That's a good question. Guessing the answer is nowhere? But it's fresh, very fresh, time for bed and there will definitely be more tomorrow...

You know what to do in the meantime... :)


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