To see without any understanding

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
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movement11
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To see without any understanding

Postby movement11 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:33 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
A final knowing. I came here because of what felt like guidance and because I am seeking a true knowing of what is real and what is not. I have found real traction in the past year or so by loving my conditioned self and have had many pieces of it seen through and fallen away. This has been truly a blessing in my life and I have felt the lightness of it. However, there are still some sticky points and while I have a firm belief that all is a gift, I also know and can feel that I believe in a type of Cause/Effect world where there is still a belief of a separate self. It shows up in numerous places along the way. I have read half of Gateless Gatecrashers and have really started to LOOK at the label of "I" and have had some profound moments. I am still reading it but was drawn to finally make an account and move forward. I want to receive confirmation of if I have seen through it for reals or if I am just analyzing things and making it a piece of understanding versus a direct experience. I feel very muddy at times on what is real and what is not.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?
I feel now that my life won't change by "being enlightened". I hope that is not just simply a conceptual belief but I don't pretend to know either. Sometimes I feel as if I am even fooling myself when I believe I have truly looked. A huge lack of trust in REAL knowing. Feeling very confused and yet, very much at peace with that confusion. I come to you fairly calm and yet there is a movement in me....a seeking for the final illusionary finish line.
Honestly, I expect to know without a doubt that there is no self from this. I don't expect my life to change. I worked through that BS not too long ago. But I expect to be clear. To have clarity. To simply sit and know and be able to look at something and no matter what emotions come up, I will be able to see that they are thoughts and emotions just happening.

Honestly, I don't know where I am in the process. This is why I seek help. I don't know what I don't know...and I am not sure of what I do know. These paragraphs that I am writing seem very difficult as the one who wants to do a good job is here...as well as my earnestness to be real and honest.

With that said, I can definitely feel the difference of when I directly look and when I try to talk my way out of it. I am no longer interested in it being so topical....so without depth. I want to know. I want to know for real. The fear is gone or at least, not strong enough to stop me now. I am ready.

More honesty, I am scared that this is another way of me trying to fix me and seeking again. I never feel I know the difference of when I am honestly moving toward something or when I am obsessive and not willing to accept where I am.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?
My background includes studying and practicing the following....
- Matt Kahn and loving my inner child and fully accepting every emotion that comes up and welcoming it in.
- Byron Katie. I am a facilitator of her work in self inquiry. I have always loved it and deeply understand how to question my own beliefs and help others see through their own.
-Gangaji, Adya, Bentinho Massaro
-A multitude of others.

As far as really actually looking at the self as not being there...that, I am a novice in. I have really just started with your book and app and reading blogs, watching youtube videos.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?
9

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bth
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby bth » Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:45 pm

Hi Movement,

I can be your guide if you like.

Barry

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movement11
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby movement11 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:31 pm

Hi Barry,
That would be lovely. You can call me Erin.

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bth
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby bth » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:48 am

HI Erin,

Oke great.

Deal is kinda that you willing to post once a day and leave other "spiritual"books aside for a bit. Meditation, yoga etc no problem. Also the work of Byron Katie is also oke. Just no fliffy floffy books about consiousness, Who am I question etc, which fuel the "thought muscle".

Reading the gateless book or scrolling thoughh the website or forum is oke and can even be helpful sometimes (as long as you confirm this within your self).

So always read, and look and confirm yourself!

Are you oke with that?

Barry

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movement11
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby movement11 » Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:14 pm

Absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. I have been reading gateless every day for a bit and it is slow going as every time a guide tells the person to directly look and see...I do the same.

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bth
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby bth » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:22 pm

Oke great. Basically its all quiet simple, just a bunch of conditioning holding most of us back. If you were to tell a four year old he/she would probably wont have any problem seeing through a gateless gate.

As a start. What does the word university refer too? Can you see a university?

Barry

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movement11
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby movement11 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:54 pm

Oke great. Basically its all quiet simple, just a bunch of conditioning holding most of us back. If you were to tell a four year old he/she would probably wont have any problem seeing through a gateless gate.

As a start. What does the word university refer too? Can you see a university?


University. The first thing that popped in my mind was a building. I thought a University is a big brick building, like ones I have seen in the movies. However, that really isn't a university. That is a building made of bricks. There are students, there are books, there are classes, there are degrees.

As for seeing an actual university, you can't. Because it is a concept. It is a label. It itself doesn't exist, all the things that make it up do but the concept is just a way to take all those things and label it easier than trying to explain how those individual items work together one by one to create an experience called university. Instead, we just say university.

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bth
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby bth » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:53 pm

Hej enrin,

You can also use the qoute function if you want to, or dont use it.
As for seeing an actual university, you can't. Because it is a concept. It is a label. It itself doesn't exist, all the things that make it up do but the concept is just a way to take all those things and label it easier than trying to explain how those individual items work together one by one to create an experience called university. Instead, we just say university.
Yes! (this also answers a bit the first question ;) ).

How or why we do that I dont know. My best guess is communication :).
It itself doesn't exist
If i tell you now that the I is actually similar to the word university, Isnt to be seen, and It itself doesnt exist.

How do you react to this statement? Please describe as descriptive as possible (tenstion here, tension there, thoughts happening etc).

Barry

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movement11
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby movement11 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:11 pm

If i tell you now that the I is actually similar to the word university, Isnt to be seen, and It itself doesnt exist.

How do you react to this statement? Please describe as descriptive as possible (tenstion here, tension there, thoughts happening etc).
My first feelings as honest as I can be and as directly as it is possible to convey them:
It conceptually makes sense.
I am yawning and sitting at the computer not able to or not wanting to put it into words.
My body is uncomfortable.
I first directly looked at this reading gateless.
Sitting with it again now.
I want to get up and do things in my house. I don't want to sit here and contemplate this even though I do.
Restless.
Feeling into it and I can see how if I compare to University.
I am projecting that I have a headache, I don't feel well. I feel restless. And I am noticing that headache, not feeling well, restless are all things like the books, degrees, building and students. They are all just things appearing and showing up. And I am claiming them as mine. As part of the label of "I". But the label itself is just a label...not a real entity. There is no I. These feelings are being experienced. The experience feels real. Like it is happening.
Would it still be happening if I hadn't constructed the "I" to experience it? That is a question that popped up. I guess the answer would have to be yes because they are still happening and I is supposed to be an illusion. Who is here having this experience if there is no I? Do experiences happen when the I is seen through? All questions coming up for me.

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bth
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby bth » Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:29 pm

Great.

Would they still be happening? Lets check

Tomorrow morning do the following.

Name
I walk - walking
I write - writing
I smile - smiling
I sit - sitting

Does anything change? Do experiences still happen?

( be reminded that its oke for the I thought to be there and to pop up).




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movement11
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby movement11 » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:01 am

Tomorrow morning do the following.

Name
I walk - walking
I write - writing
I smile - smiling
I sit - sitting

Does anything change? Do experiences still happen?
Could you clarify what you want me to do exactly? Am I typing my name and then describing what happens with I walk and then walking...trying each? Or something completely different? A little confused on what my assignment is...but glad to do it! ;)

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bth
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby bth » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:37 am

:). Your gona look into if that I thought is really nessecary for things to happen.

So when you do things morning.

Instead of using

I walk - walking happening
I sit - sitting happening
Etc

And really look if there is a different feel to the experience if you wouldnt label it with I do for a bit but with a doing happening.


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movement11
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby movement11 » Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:29 pm

As I had the thoughts…

Walking to the coffee pot is happening
Making coffee, drinking coffee is happening
Searching on the internet is happening
Hearing a jet flying overhead is happening
Typing is happening
Listening is happening
Moving to a different website is happening
Hugging my child good morning is happening
Thinking about waking up my other child is happening
Contemplating is happening
Making a mess with my coffee is happening

Then I had the thought “a mess” is a concept like University.
There is no such thing as a mess.
That felt good. That made sense. I saw it as a concept only.
Then I thought that even walking, coffee, child are equally only concepts.
That felt lighter and there was movement.

Shifted back and forth into things just happening and then feeling like there was choice happening.
Thoughts of “is there choice?” It feels like there is choice happening. Back to the concept of cause and effect. That “I” was choosing still to move from website to website. That I was choosing to or to not wake up my other child.
But what if there were no cause and effect?….what if that weren’t a real thing but only a thought that maybe has manifested? Still not clear on that. That feels foggy and hard to imagine no cause and effect. To let go of thinking that all of this has movement and purpose. Yes, purpose. It all feels like it has a path. A direction or at least a pattern. Moving to the websites and drinking my coffee in the same patterns I do every day. Learned patterns I gave myself. So, who learned those patterns. They feel orderly and habitual. If there is no “I”…how can there be order? Hoping that makes sense what I am trying to say. Basically, if there is no “I’…where in the world are the patterns and causes and effects coming from. They feel wrapped up in this concept of me? Is that true but also an illusion? I still feel the structure here even though once again, conceptually…I get that everything is happening. Just feel like the order and structure of “I” is real….but maybe still constructed?


Re-read my assignment. Don't feel I did it.
I was to look into if they still happened EVEN if I let go of the "I".
Sitting with it....YES. Whether I thought "I" made the choice or not. Things happened and things did not.
I felt that more when I would touch my face or scratch my cheek WITHOUT a thought. It feels like the thoughts make me feel more like there is an "I"...and when things naturally seem to happen...like my leg starts to ache or I breathe in and out...no thought is there...that is easier to see that it is just happening. When a thought appears before it, I get the sense of "I" existing.

Much love...and thank you for helping me...I am loving really looking at this and feeling like I have someone to guide me at WHAT to look at instead of poking around not knowing what direction to point my awareness.

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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby movement11 » Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:42 pm

Had another thought come up....that I am trying to understand this. Very much so. And then I heard..."this isn't understandable"...and a feeling of trust came up. For you....but also for where I am right now. I felt a release of needing to understand...and instead just move with what is happening right now. Still twinges of "why...who is moving this, etc." but it became clear that the level of understanding that I use to make "sense" of things...is maybe the thing I am seeing through? Or something like that??? Not sure...just thought I would share. ;)

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bth
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby bth » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:45 am

Yes great good looking!!!

This isnt understandable and isnt seen cause it was never there.

Things happen with or without an I thought. And I thought will still be happening but it points to nothing.

You say I make sense of thing. Can you see that I make sense of things is another thought happening?

Barry


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