Getting Glimpses

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Jissi
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Getting Glimpses

Postby Jissi » Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:50 pm

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
A very strong desire to experience no-self directly. I have been working for a couple of days with Christiane Michelberger on the LU FBsite, then on Messenger. I get glimpses of of, no-self, but I want to get through the gate.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
If I want to end suffering I need to realize for myself the reality of no-self and I don't have too many decades left to me to do this :) I have read about five of the stories in the Gateless Gate pdf, and I got glimpses of no-self. I want to walk, or fall, directly into this experience. i expect merely to see clearly the world as it is.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I learned TM in 1968, but only practices sporadically. In 2006 I learned what you are calling Vipassana (based on the Satipatthana Sutta). I have only been meditating daily since January, 2015. Meditation: Objectless Awareness. This is essentially the same as Shikantaza in Zen. I belong to several of Jackson Peterson's FB Dzogchen sites. I will suspend my Buddhist studies during this process.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 8

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Ghata
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Re: Getting Glimpses

Postby Ghata » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:05 am

Hi Jissi,

Welcome to the Liberation Unleashed forum. Lovely to meet you here :)

We started already, so you know how this works.

Please put aside all books, videos and audios for the time of our dialogue. It is fine to use LU materials. You are now going to look into the self illusion in your first hand experience. What other people say will not help you.

We talked already about meditation. It is fine to continue with objectless awareness. Please stop the visualization as you will look into what actually is there, not what is imagined.

Here are my first questions:

How will it feel to see through the illusion of self?
What will be different and what will stay the same?

Sending love,
Ghata
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Jissi
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Re: Getting Glimpses

Postby Jissi » Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:10 am

Third attempt to reply...

Hi, Ghata. Yes, I agree to focus just on seeing through the illusion of self through direct observation: no FB, no audio or videos, no books. And yes, I will happily drop the visualization meditation.

How will it feel to see through the illusion of self?
When I read that question some small tears came to my eyes, happiness. It will be *such* a relief! I will be free to simply experience reality, free of the need to hold together what does not exist and the huge effort this entails. I can feel relaxation happening just considering that this is possible for me. The body feels softer.

What will be different and what will be the same?
What will be different?
I don't think that much will be different. I think I will laugh more easily. There will be more feeling happening in the body. I think things will make themselves seen and heard to me as they actually are, without some (nonexistent) editor chiming in to interpret what is being sensed. I think I will feel lighter, unburdened. I surely hope so! I will directly experience that Jissi is a label, a convention of language. I think the lifelong feeling of separateness will start to erode. More relaxation happens just as "I" type this. (Last night and today I've had the sense of typing just happening a number of times.)

What will be the same?
The objects in my apartment will be the same. What "I" do in the world will be the same: walks will be walked, birds will be heard and the sunshine will be enjoyed. The kidneys will keep kidneying and the liver will go on livering.

I am so happy and excited to be starting this process with you, Ghata. Thanks.

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Ghata
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Re: Getting Glimpses

Postby Ghata » Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:51 am

Hi Jissi,

thank you for the answers. You are yearning to see through the Illusion of self :-).

We cannot know how it will be, some of your expectation may come true or not. Most likely it will happen in a completely different way.


Please notice all reactions that are coming up, body sensations, feelings, thoughts, when reading the following sentence:

There is no self at all nowhere, nothing, nada. There is nobody thinking, choosing, acting, experiences. There is nobody to be afraid or to get rid of fear. Whatever happens, happens on ist own. The driver's seat is empty.

Write what feels true.

Sending love,
Ghata
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Jissi
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Re: Getting Glimpses

Postby Jissi » Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:52 pm

Hi, Ghata.

Body sensations when I read your sentence: clutch in the abdomen, anxiety/fear

Feelings:nefarious, frustration (maybe this frustration is actually anger that "I"'m not "getting it", though intellectually I know that this is quite simple.

Thought: that the last couple of nights I have felt quite close to realizing no-self. Body:momentary relaxation in the diaphragm compares with this thought.

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Jissi
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Re: Getting Glimpses

Postby Jissi » Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:54 pm

TYPO in last reply!

Where it says "Feelings: nefarious, it should say

Feelings: fear, frustration. Thought that..

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Jissi
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Re: Getting Glimpses

Postby Jissi » Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:00 pm

Another TYPO- compares should read 'comes with this thought'.

(I'm submitting answers as I type them because this keyboard and Forum site are so sensitive that yesterday I lost all my answers twice, before I successfully submitted the. I will check answers better.)

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Jissi
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Re: Getting Glimpses

Postby Jissi » Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:36 pm

Ghata: some housekeeping from my end:

Yesterday I sent you one last PM; I just want to make sure that you've read it. I don't need a response. I have done what I said I would about FB.

Is it OK to do Metta meditation? I forgot to mention that that is another of my practices. I wonder, because it involves actually generating Metta. Or rather, metta generating itself.

I walk for an hour a day. During that time to you want me to focus just on the question you've posted, or can I also be with the sounds being heard, the sensations being felt and the thoughts?

Finally, is it permitted to read other people's threads on the Forum? I can't remember. I know that all the other LU material is encouraged, but I wasn't sure about this.

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Ghata
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Re: Getting Glimpses

Postby Ghata » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:34 am

Dear Graeme,

yes, I read your last pm on Facebook and removed the identifying informations. I had sent you an answer. When you go for your walk, go ahead and experience directly what sensations are coming up.

I suggest that you don't read other threads. It could easily turn into comparing yourself to others regarding the progress, expecting the same sort of shift to happen....

The inquiry works differently for every single person and it always is perfect for this person.

You are doing great :-)
Body sensations when I read your sentence: clutch in the abdomen, anxiety/fearFeelings:fear, frustration (maybe this frustration is actually anger that "I"'m not "getting it", though intellectually I know that this is quite simple.Thought: that the last couple of nights I have felt quite close to realizing no-self. Body:momentary relaxation in the diaphragm compares with this thought.
Fine :-). It seems there is some fear, but it is not blocking the way, you go ahead nevertheless. Should the fear become stronger, please share so we can look into it together.

I suggest that you don't do Metta Meditation as it could be confusing. It involves generating a feeling that hasn't been there and sending love to yourself.

To whom would you be sending this love? Find the place where this entity is that love is sent to.

Sending love,
Ghata
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Jissi
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Re: Getting Glimpses

Postby Jissi » Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:59 pm

Hi, Ghata-Agreed re all the suggestions in your. Btw, I had noticed that you removed what I'd asked :) Thanks. I'll also add that some of the fear/anxiety that was making itself felt in the body was due to a cause other than your instruction to look.

Last night I read the LU article "Nothing Hidden" and found the instructions to "soften" and "be lazy" helpful. When "I" was working in the kitchen, there really was some automatic "doing"-arms and hands just doing arm-ing and hand-ing, knowing how to, and a simple awareness of arms arm-ing and hands hand-ing. Just for split seconds at a time. Then thought attaches to the simple awareness and I have a sense again that "I" am doing this. But SO encouraging. To the extent that I stay with the senses, this is easy. For a split second at a time.

I'm so eager for this, wanting to directly experience no-self so badly--it seems the only way to get "there" is to soften to direct experience (which does not mean trying to avoid the tight-diaphragm feeling if that's what the body is doing-I hope this makes sense). I trust that you will tell me if I'm thinking rather than experiencing being). So grateful, this morning!

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Ghata
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Re: Getting Glimpses

Postby Ghata » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:36 pm

Dear Jissy,

so lovely to read :-).

Yes, this is not hard work, hard concentration. It is relaxing into what is - even into the tight diaphragm feeling.
When "I" was working in the kitchen, there really was some automatic "doing"-arms and hands just doing arm-ing and hand-ing, knowing how to, and a simple awareness of arms arm-ing and hands hand-ing. Just for split seconds at a time. Then thought attaches to the simple awareness and I have a sense again that "I" am doing this.
Beautiful, Jissy :-)

Throughout the day, watch what is not on automatic. Is anything being done by a separate entity, "I", or is it always arming, handing, walking, breathing...?

Watch how thoughts take ownership of all that is done.


Lots of love,
Ghata
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Jissi
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Re: Getting Glimpses

Postby Jissi » Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:53 pm

Hi, Ghata - Last night some anger made itself felt over an incident in the laundry room. Again some sensation of tightness in the diaphragm and also some sensation of tightness in the belly. Then a sensation in the upper arms that thought labelled as "energy"-a tingling sensation. As I type this, the tightness in the diaphragm makes itself known again.

Last night as I looked I was unable to find a "me" who was experiencing these sensations, but this is still at an intellectual level. I "hear" thought saying, ""I" can't find a me. But it's thought, not a clear knowing of no-me.

Still, I continue to be encouraged. I've felt happy these last three days. I cannot find the sensation that thought labels as 'happiness', though.

Hearing what is making itself heard is by far the "easiest": that is effortless and I love it. Living and walking in a big city provides so many ongoing happenings that thane themselves heard.

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Jissi
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Re: Getting Glimpses

Postby Jissi » Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:56 pm

Oops, a too--living ... Provides so many sensations that MAKE (not 'thane') themselves heard...

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Ghata
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Re: Getting Glimpses

Postby Ghata » Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:19 pm

Dear Jissi,

great looking!
Last night as I looked I was unable to find a "me" who was experiencing these sensations, but this is still at an intellectual level. I "hear" thought saying, ""I" can't find a me. But it's thought, not a clear knowing of no-me.
That is wonderful. It is alright that it is at an intellectual level. Relax. The shift will happen unexpectedly, we cannot know when it will be the case. It won't help expecting it around every corner :-). You are doing very well!

I'll repeat my question from my last post, so you can answer it the next time.

Throughout the day, watch what is not on automatic. Is anything being done by a separate entity, "I", or is it always arming, handing, walking, breathing...?

Watch how thoughts take ownership of all that is done.
Sending love,
Ghata
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Jissi
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Re: Getting Glimpses

Postby Jissi » Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:00 am

Thanks, Ghata. More from today (Friday): During my walk and later when I was working in the kitchen, weakness (from the spine) expressed its self in certain muscles. Felt were weakness and muscle tightness-which were labelled "pain". I can't decide if the word weakness is 'merely'a thought/label attached by the mind: there really was a felt sensation of weakness.

Working in kitchen 'I' experienced a longer period of the body (arms, hands) just 'body-ing', and sound of running water and a chirping bird made themselves heard.

Re your question (noticing what is not on automatic; Is anything being done by a separate entity, l?)

Apparently not. I cannot find anything (so far)--*laughing*-–. It seems that everything is just being done. Suddenly this has become fun :-)

I notice the doing just being done, and for a split second it is just being noticed as happening automatically. Immediately after that, the brain chimes in and assigns a label to each doing. There is only that split second of noticing non-automaticity, and then thinking happens. (Btw, it took me several days to see that decisions are just being made, and I still sometimes think that 'I' am doing the deciding, but its becoming easier to recognize that decisions are making themselves.)


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