My imagined thread

[Florisness]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:

I think the biggest factor that brings me here is a drive that wants to escape. Currently I would descripe the thing I want to escape from as a 'dead routine of life'. I don't want to do the normal zombie thing anymore of concepts, judging, complaining, and an unsatisfying life. So I'm not interested in actually anything anymore except for what brings deeper understanding, a way out and beauty. There is also a drive to be an enlightened guy.
I am aware that what I wrote is all ego.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:

To escape, to gain, to be complete (spoke maya). I think the dream enlightenment fantasy is that once I see it I'll be very happy, crying, not being uncertain about future and being satisfied. Also this ego feels very disgusting and I know that maya is one big scam. I want to lose this crap and not carry it around anymore.
Jezus I really write a bunch of crap! Ah well..

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:

I think I started 6 months ago after I left school. I meditate sometimes, read The Book Of Not Knowing followed by Jed Mckenna's books, did 'Who am I?' for some months, wrote about 150 spiritual autolysis "posts" and since 3 months I'm a "digital student" of Jed Mckenna. Since this student time I learned (amongst others) some nice vanishing techniques (identity and importances).

NOTE: the next question asks to choose a number between 1 and 10 about being ready to drop beliefs. The lists goes to number 11 though (just saying). I'll pretend that there are just 10 numbers (don't worry, I seem to be very good at pretending! :-) ). Btw, I find it hard to answer this question since I don't know if/how much self deception is involved in it, I feel ready to drop the crap though.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 8

[Florisness]

Well if no one is going to guide me, then I'm going to guide myself! HA!

Guide: So Murtagh, how should I call you?
Imaginary me: Uhh why do you ask? You are talking to yourself..
Guide: Play along please!
Imaginary me: Jeez.. Okay, Jack is fine.

Guide: Okay Jack, thank you, now answer these questions for me please:

What is it that wants to escape?
Look around the room and ask yourself: Am I really in here? is there a me in this scene?


Jack:

What is it that wants to escape?

I'm not sure Guide, it's buried deep. I think the thing that wants to escape is the same thing as the thing that it wants escaping from.

Look around the room and ask yourself: Am I really in here? is there a me in this scene?

Hmm well there are just these appearances. If I would be in here than I would be an appearance too right? Well since I can't come and go like an appearance, then I can't be in here.
But I don't experience/realize not being a entity, so there must be still a believe or thought of a me. I just can't pinpoint it or say what that is.


Okay a real guide is welcome after all.

[Canfora]

Real guide coming to the rescue :)
Hi and welcome to the LU forum. Thank you for your posts.

Look around the room and ask yourself: Am I really in here? is there a me in this scene?

These are very nice questions.
And did you look for a self, the me?
Physically looked for a self?
Like you would do to try to find other person, for example, or a object?

[Florisness]

Great, thanks Canfora!

And did you look for a self, the me?
Physically looked for a self?
Like you would do to try to find other person, for example, or a object?

Yes I looked, although I don't even have a clue what this me should look like while I'm looking.
Well mostly I scan inside the head to find something me-ish, but just find sensations.

Also tried; Do I live in this hand? No. In these arms? No. Etc, etc. Then I end up in the head. Do I live in the bottom part of the head? No. Upper part? And then my mind stops answering.

[Canfora]

Did I told you I love your forum name? Love it. Just googled it. Okay, it's from Eragon. Nice choice.

Yes I looked, although I don't even have a clue what this me should look like while I'm looking.

Then we need to talk about what you're looking for.
To me a self, a me, is an entity separate from life that can control a slice of life. A person. A thing. Some-*thing* that is a you. Does this attempt to define what a self is match your idea of what a self is?

[Florisness]

Yes I like the name too! Although the movie sucks imho.

To me a self, a me, is an entity separate from life that can control a slice of life. A person. A thing. Some-*thing* that is a you. Does this attempt to define what a self is match your idea of what a self is?

Yes that sounds accurate. It's as if all these opinions, behaviors, etc. are an expression of that me. But I'm (on the surface) aware that since I can change my behavior, my thoughts, etc., that those can't actually be an expression of that.

[Canfora]

Yes I like the name too! Although the movie sucks imho.

I agree.

Yes that sounds accurate. It's as if all these opinions, behaviors, etc. are an expression of that me. But I'm (on the surface) aware that since I can change my behavior, my thoughts, etc., that those can't actually be an expression of that.

You're looking to the "symptoms". Try to find the "source" - the I you're mentioning, the you.
There is this experience going on right now, yes?
You're aware of it, it can be perceived.
If a self exists, it must be here.
It must be findable.
So have a look.
You can see reality as it is when you look (please don't start analyzing what I'm saying - we aren't trying to know what reality is or if there is a "real" reality, etc... we are just looking to what is here right now).

Can you see a you, a me, this I you talk about?

[Florisness]

Can you see a you, a me, this I you talk about?

No, can't find it to save my life.

[Canfora]

Notice how thoughts say a you *must* exist.
Then look again.
Can you find a you?
Do you see the difference between thoughts and experience?

[Florisness]

Once again, thank you for helping.

That's true, sometimes a thought pops up, but mostly it's quiet when looking. And yes thought talks about an imaginary experience while experience is just that.

Sidenote: I've an interested in the Gateless Gatecrashers pdf, do you recommend it or shall I wait for after your pointings? (if it doesn't work)

[Canfora]

Once again, thank you for helping.

You're welcome. By the way, you're doing great, Murtagh!

That's true, sometimes a thought pops up, but mostly it's quiet when looking. And yes thought talks about an imaginary experience while experience is just that.

Experience is just that.. that what? Can you describe what is being experienced?

Sidenote: I've an interested in the Gateless Gatecrashers pdf, do you recommend it or shall I wait for after your pointings?

Go for it. If you notice that reading the book makes you think instead of look for answers in your own experience, then maybe you should stop reading it.

(if it doesn't work)

Can you write a little more about this?
You have looked and told me you didn't found a you.
That's the main goal of this conversation.
So what are you expecting to be different?
Any reason to think this seeing isn't the seeing of the illusion?

[Florisness]

Experience is just that.. that what? Can you describe what is being experienced?

I think by experience I mean the same as an appearance(s). I don't really find something experienced, just the experiences, although my mind is happy to add images to it.

Can you write a little more about this?
You have looked and told me you didn't found a you.
That's the main goal of this conversation.
So what are you expecting to be different?
Any reason to think this seeing isn't the seeing of the illusion?

I hope that I'll get a 'God there is no me!!' realization so that it will help to shake up the boat a bit further loosening up some false foundations, and an increase in consciousness would be a nice side-effect.
Are you saying this simple seeing of 'I can't find a me' the seeing of the illusion? The me-thought still happily caries on doing its job influencing desires, fears, thoughts, behaviors, etc.

[Canfora]

I think by experience I mean the same as an appearance(s). I don't really find something experienced, just the experiences, although my mind is happy to add images to it.

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying. What would you say is being experienced right now?

I hope that I'll get a 'God there is no me!!' realization so that it will help to shake up the boat a bit further loosening up some false foundations, and an increase in consciousness would be a nice side-effect.

Hmm... it may happen or not, but if you can't find a self who/what will realize its non existence?

Are you saying this simple seeing of 'I can't find a me' the seeing of the illusion?

I'm saying that if you can't find a self and you realize a self doesn't exist, that is the seeing of the illusion.

The me-thought still happily caries on doing its job influencing desires, fears, thoughts, behaviors, etc.

Yes. Er... do you expect that thinking will change? Or stop?
Would you say there is a me thinking me-thoughts?

[Florisness]

Murtagh wrote:
I think by experience I mean the same as an appearance(s). I don't really find something experienced, just the experiences, although my mind is happy to add images to it.

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying. What would you say is being experienced right now?

Uhh I think we lost each other. I don't understand your question. I could say that anything in my awareness is experienced but I don't think that's what you mean.

Hmm... it may happen or not, but if you can't find a self who/what will realize its non existence?

That makes this whole realization thing a bit silly doesn't it? I didn't really consider that before hehe

The me-thought still happily caries on doing its job influencing desires, fears, thoughts, behaviors, etc.

Yes. Er... do you expect that thinking will change? Or stop?
Would you say there is a me thinking me-thoughts?

No there isn't a me thinking thoughts, those lying basterds just pop up. Honestly yes I did expect thoughts and other things to change (at least) a bit after realization. I'll try dropping expectations

[Canfora]

When a expectation pops up, notice how it is always about an imaginary self, the one that is living in an imaginary future :)

Uhh I think we lost each other. I don't understand your question. I could say that anything in my awareness is experienced but I don't think that's what you mean.

I don't know, maybe we are talking about the same, maybe not. The only way to know if we are talking about the same is if you give me a description of what you are labeling this way: "anything in my awareness is experienced ". Can you have a look and describe what is being experienced, please?

I realize this question may seem strange or silly but I'm trying to check if you are aware of what is going on around you, when the thinking commentary isn't overlapping what is being experienced.

You have looked for a self and didn't found it and I would like to know what you did find in its place. Just to check if you are using your senses to scan what is here/now - in the only place/time the illusion can be seen.