NoLabel requests a guide

[NoLabel]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
Hallo to everybody there. Grate work! First of all I would like to excuse my English because its not my first language. I have one friend that found the e-book of the gateless Gatecrushers in her pc and she thought it was sent from me. I haven't sent her anything like this. So, she told me "read this", it’s very close to what we have discussed before. And I did. The thing that I liked the most on these conversations was the simplicity of your procedure. I think that everything in life that has a bit of wisdom (and by wisdom I mean a fragment of truth) has to be simple.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I always was a little bit skepticism about meditation and stuff, especially the meditations you have to visualize. “Imagine the light comes into you”… I DON’T KNOW HOW IT IS WHEN THE LIGHT COMING IN ME!.  Anyway, I tried Vipassana because two people I met were very grounded and not with spiritual labels on them. So, I went to the seminar and I liked that it was just observation and not visualization. Even if I didn’t attended any other seminar since then, I stayed into this technique for 2 years. It was going pretty well until at some point it was like I was hitting a wall. It became hard, obligated, and a boring routine. So I stopped. About 1-2 years now I have quit everything has to do with this, I don’t read spiritual books and I try to find my own way… whatever that is and if there is…

What do you expect of the conversation on this forum?:
I don’t really know what to expect. I like the idea of no self, I can understand this idea but I cannot make it mine. Even in intellectual part I have some questions and doubts that I would like to be answered.
I think the tricky part with me it is that I had a taste of the flowing of life, without knowing it and not even analyzing it, and now (after all this “spiritual” seeking) I miss this way of life. It is like I want back something I have lost and this is not good because I have expectations.
Anyway, I would like to try this, I would like to have a guide so he/she can make me some things clear. Whatever happens THANK YOU in advance.

[NoLabel]

Hallo to everyone! I would like to be guided by Illona if its possible. If not, anyone else is welcome. No rush! I also have a busy schedule. Thanks a lot!

[Canfora]

Hi NoLabel and welcome to the LU forum.

I'm Sandra and I can be your guide if that is ok with you.

From your introduction I can see you had many experiences and now you have some lingering expectations. Experiences come and go, reading what you wrote is very obvious how impermanent they are - and I supposed you are aware of this impermanence.

Walking this path is about looking to what is going on here and now, no more than that - it's not about reaching new, improved experiences or states. It's the simple observation of your immediate experience like if it is the first time you are looking to / experiencing things.

So what do you expect from this seeing through the illusion of a separate you? What do you expect to happen? What will be different? How will you change?

Looking forward to our conversation,
Sandra

[NoLabel]

Hi Sandra. Thanks a lot for your reply. Yes it would be perfect to guide me.

“So what do you expect from this seeing through the illusion of a separate you? What do you expect to happen?”

I would like to be in present 100%. I have tasted this clear experience and I can remember it was like I was a 6 years old boy. Just sitting on the payvement, looking at the light, the colours, just experiencing. The last years I feel there is a cloud in my head. I have good times but I can’t be there 100%. My mind analyses too much.

“What will be different? How will you change?”

I don’t think I will change. This is my nature. There is nothing wrong with it. I guess the thing I expect to be different would be that lightness I miss. To not take things and life so seriously. To just experiencing it. Again, I guess I expect to be in the present moment in clarity.

Thanks a lot.

[Canfora]

Hi NoLabel, thank you for your answers!

I would like to be in present 100%. I have tasted this clear experience and I can remember it was like I was a 6 years old boy. Just sitting on the payvement, looking at the light, the colours, just experiencing. The last years I feel there is a cloud in my head. I have good times but I can’t be there 100%. My mind analyses too much.

You are making a distinction between being present with what is going on and being lost in thoughts.
Does that mean that when what is being experienced is "being lost in thoughts" something is missing from experience?

Have a look, what can you see?

Can you find a dividing line, a border, between a moment when raw experience is happening and a moment when thinking is happening? Is experience made of pieces or is experience a seamless allness?

Is one experience separated from the other? Can you see separate experiences?

I'm pointing to something that can be difficult to grasp, let me know if you have difficulties understanding what I mean.

[NoLabel]

Does that mean that when what is being experienced is "being lost in thoughts" something is missing from experience?

Hmmm.. I get what you mean. That to be lost in thoughts is part of the experience. It is what is going on this specific moment. Suddenly as I realised that, I had no thoughts. There was silence. I can hear the city sounds, the sounds in my room... there is calmness.
And now I realise that I might seek for something more than this. But I can't say what excactly. It is like this is not enough. Like it is a little bit boring and I need something more...

Can you find a dividing line, a border, between a moment when raw experience is happening and a moment when thinking is happening? Is experience made of pieces or is experience a seamless allness?

Very good point. I don't think there is a dividing line between a moment when raw experience is happening and a moment when thinking is happening. Experience is a seamless allness.
But then this thought arises... I can see that thoughts come and go by themselves. But this very moment I can aim a thought. I can choose to think of my cat for examble. Who is this that chooses that consious thought?
So, the division I can see is between the thoughts that happen by their own (and there is observation or not) and the thoughts that I choose to make. For examble there is a thought crossing the mind about food. I can decide to eat or not.
All the senses triger some thoughts. I dont follow all of them. I choose. This is what confuses me and I want to make clear.

[Canfora]

And now I realise that I might seek for something more than this. But I can't say what excactly. It is like this is not enough. Like it is a little bit boring and I need something more...

Oh, yes, I hear you. Wanting more, the feeling that this moment is not enough, is a cause of seeking.

You said

It is what is going on this specific moment. Suddenly as I realised that, I had no thoughts. There was silence. I can hear the city sounds, the sounds in my room... there is calmness.

and then there was a change

And now I realise that I might seek for something more than this. But I can't say what excactly. It is like this is not enough. Like it is a little bit boring and I need something more...

What causes the shift from "there was silence", "there is calmness" to "It is like this is not enough"? Do you have any idea of what is behind this lack of acceptance? Do you think this moment could be different than it is?

But then this thought arises... I can see that thoughts come and go by themselves. But this very moment I can aim a thought. I can choose to think of my cat for examble. Who is this that chooses that consious thought?
So, the division I can see is between the thoughts that happen by their own (and there is observation or not) and the thoughts that I choose to make. For examble there is a thought crossing the mind about food. I can decide to eat or not.
All the senses triger some thoughts. I dont follow all of them. I choose. This is what confuses me and I want to make clear.

You're saying that you are the chooser of some thoughts? We are going to look at thoughts with more depth but try this little exercise. Think one number from 0 to 100. Try to observe the moment when one number pops up. Can you see / find a you that is choosing what number to think? Try this as many times has needed. What do you see happening?

[NoLabel]

What causes the shift from "there was silence", "there is calmness" to "It is like this is not enough"? Do you have any idea of what is behind this lack of acceptance? Do you think this moment could be different than it is?

Hmmm, again very good point. I don’t have an idea about how this moment could be different that it is. I can't think anything specific of how I would like this moment to be. It is just the expectation I have for something more that made think that “that this is not enough”

Think one number from 0 to 100. Try to observe the moment when one number pops up. Can you see / find a you that is choosing what number to think? Try this as many times has needed. What do you see happening?

Yes, a number just pops up by its own. I don’t choose it. I can see it clearly on this example. But what about decision making with the food example? A thought pops up “about food” by its own. I didn’t choose that thought. But I think that the thought “to eat or not it’s my decision”. I can even deicide to not eat ever again and starve to death. If I don’t choose thoughts… and there is the decision to not eat ever again, is this life that will starve me to death? It is not my choice? very confusing… :)
(Sorry if I make it too complicated but I want to show you every doubt that is crossing my mind)

[Canfora]

(Sorry if I make it too complicated but I want to show you every doubt that is crossing my mind)

That's ok but this inquiry can be much more effective if instead of playing imaginary scenarios you look to what is happening here and now.

What causes the shift from "there was silence", "there is calmness" to "It is like this is not enough"? Do you have any idea of what is behind this lack of acceptance? Do you think this moment could be different than it is?

Hmmm, again very good point. I don’t have an idea about how this moment could be different that it is. I can't think anything specific of how I would like this moment to be. It is just the expectation I have for something more that made think that “that this is not enough"

Yes, without thinking / expecting that things should be different it is easier to see that this is the only way they could be.

I didn’t choose that thought. But I think that the thought “to eat or not it’s my decision”. I can even deicide to not eat ever again and starve to death. If I don’t choose thoughts… and there is the decision to not eat ever again, is this life that will starve me to death? It is not my choice? very confusing… :)

It's confusing because instead of looking to how things are, you are pondering imaginary scenarios. You need to check if what you're thinking matches your experience or if it is only thinking doing it's thing.

What you're saying is that you can decide to do something or not to do something, yes?

Let's do an exercise to check if you can find an entity, a No Label deciding what to do:

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn't).

But can you pinpoint the actual moment of decision and find the actual entity that appears to be making that decision?

Can that moment of decision, that apparent decider, actually be found? Or does the idea “I just decided to (not) raise my right arm” come after the event itself?

Repeat the exercise as many times as needed to be sure you are describing what is being experienced - not what you think it's being experienced :)

[NoLabel]

Hi there. Sorry I havent replied earlier but I have guests at home and its not easy to find the time to consentrate.
For now I can tell you that I have tried the "arm excersise" several times. I dont have an answer for sure. The thought comes to raise my arm or not but i can see me choosing to raise my arm or not. I tried hard to see what you mean, and the only thing that happened was that thoughts were spinning like crazy in my head, my heartbeat raised too much, there was frustration, nerves, anxiety, and i ended with an awfull headache.
All times I was thinking to raise my arm, but i was not raising it because I was not deciding to raise it. When i was really giving the order, ofcourse i was raising my head.
Sorry, I dont get it...

[NoLabel]

(Sorry, I was meaning) ...When i was really giving the order, ofcourse i was raising my ...arm

[Canfora]

Thank you for trying the exercise! I'm sorry to hear you had an hard time. Hope you're feeling better.

Did you spot a moment in which a thought was "raise the arm" and the arm didn't raise or a moment in which a thought was "don't raise the arm" and the arm did raise ? Anyway, if this exercise doesn't work for you we can move on.

Do you need to order things like the blinking of the eyes, the circulation of the blood, how the fingers move while you are doing something or can you be thinking about something different while these things are happening?

Your eyes blinked a second ago! Did you had to think for the blink to happen?

[NoLabel]

Hi Sandra. Thank you for being so patient. All of the times when I was thinking to raise my arm, my arm didnt move. Because I was just thinking it and not actually doing it. I didnt notice any time my arm raising without thinking it though. But i have noticed clearly and 100% that i could raise my arm up and down several times and thinking something tottally diferent.

Oh, dont worry at all about the headache. I didnt tell you to complain, I have just described you what happened while I was trying to figure out what was happening.

Ofcourse I dont need to order any of the stuff you 've mentioned. And we know that the functions of the body are divided to involuntary (blinking, heartbeat etc) and voluntary (moving arms, legs etc). But even the voluntary, i dont have to order. It would be stupid to think "step, step, step" every time I am walking. So, ofcourse I can think of anythung else while i am doing them

Thanks a lot

[Canfora]

Hi NoLabel,

Let's look to what is thinking then. If you go to a quiet place and wait for the next thought to show up, what do you see doing the thinking? Where do thoughts come from?

Hug,
Sandra

[NoLabel]

Thoughts just come on their own. Just apear and disappear.