I would like to go through this process and ask for assistance.
Like · · Unfollow Post · February 11 at 5:50am
Rohit Hi Susan,I will be working with you. I have some basic rules and expectations. BE 100% HONEST . DO NOT AGREE TO ANYTHING YOU ASSUME TO BE TRUE INSTEAD QUESTION EACH AND EVERYTHING .
YOU MUST BE ENGAGING ON DAILY BASIS . One important thing to ask is, that whatever teachings, beliefs or spiritual practices, you have acquired along your journey till now; Please put them aside until this conversation is over.
What expectations do you have from becoming Liberated?
Your objective is to look at reality and
a) See that there is no 'self' object in the place where the brain assumes a 'self' to exist, and
b) See that life operates perfectly without the need of a 'self'.
LOOK at word "SELF". what does it point to?
February 12 at 7:44pm · Like · 1
Susan Hi Rohit and thank you, Liberation to me means fearlessness, to break through the layers of conditioning and beliefs, and so to stop lying and be authentic and honest.
February 14 at 12:05am · Unlike · 1
Susan 'Self' is believing in separation, me me me-land
February 14 at 12:07am · Like
Rohit There's no self. What does it mean? check that. That's what we're looking at and that's what we're talking about here.
February 14 at 2:05pm · Like
Susan No self means that there is no separation, that there is only one 'self' that includes everything
February 14 at 2:11pm via mobile · Like
Rohit Watch your thoughts come and go. See if you can see where they are coming from.
Are you thinking them? If you think you are, see if you can see yourself doing it.
Can you choose your thoughts? If you think you can, see if you can see your self doing it.
Now see if you can choose to have none at all.
February 14 at 2:16pm · Like
Susan They seem to just come from nowhere and be of pretty random content when not engaged in a task. I can watch them come and go, and can choose to focus thoughts if I want. I can choose to have no thoughts, for a few seconds
February 14 at 2:24pm via mobile · Like
Rohit if there is NO THINKER ,what is choosing to have no thoughts?
thoughts may not be there, sure, but is it really you doing it?if yes , how do you do that?
February 14 at 2:36pm · Like
Susan Awareness I'd call it
Yeah "me" as part of that awareness
"I" relax into a feeling of awareness, an awareness that is there all the time
February 14 at 2:43pm via mobile · Like
Rohit What is it that is aware of Awareness? Is it a thought or feeling, or neither? Can it be present without thoughts or feelings? Can thoughts or feelings be present without it? Now look around you and see whether "external" objects can exist without your awareness of them. If they cannot, what does that imply about these objects? What does that imply about you?
February 14 at 3:26pm · Like
Susan seems to be just aware full stop. yes it is present without thoughts or feelings. no thoughts and feelings cant exist without it. no they cant exist without it. it implies no they dont exist and neither does a separate idea of 'me'
February 14 at 3:32pm · Edited · Like
Rohit Seem? Seems to me you're guessing. how do you know that there is no "I"? you look for yourself and find out the truth of it. otherwise it becomes another belief, and nothing changes.
February 14 at 8:15pm · Like
Susan Ive experienced it many times, no sense of an 'I', no separation from the stream sound, the tree, the rock, a person, anything
February 14 at 8:29pm · Like
Susan its not maintained all the time though
February 14 at 8:38pm · Like
Rohit Experience is true right? But who is there to experience?The movement, the living continues, including a FEELING of being I/Me/Myself. But you can see that there is nothing that controls the living, the movement. Nothing solid and identifiable.
February 15 at 7:51pm · Like
Susan yes I see that
February 15 at 11:51pm · Like
Susan who is there to experience? there is just awareness
February 16 at 12:03am · Like
Susan gosh, you guys are slow!
February 16 at 5:06am · Like
Rohit Do you see it? There doesn't have to be an experiencer, for there to be an experience.
Look at it. Test it. Why did you assume there has to be an experiencer?
Stick to what you can see for sure. Not awareness, but experience. They might even be one in the same. The feeling of "awareness" is yet another part of experience, same with the identification with it, same with the self concept.
February 16 at 9:21am · Like · 1
Susan yeah I see that
February 16 at 8:49pm · Like
Rohit do you exist?
February 17 at 11:23am · Like
Susan Yes as awareness and no as a separate self
February 17 at 2:01pm via mobile · Like
Rohit so, are you clear that you have seen through the fiction of a separate self?
February 18 at 8:44pm · Like
Susan I am clear at times and at other times I am not clear, and believe the separate self is real..
February 18 at 8:46pm · Like
Rohit There are thoughts ABOUT you what you THINK you are, like who you THINK you are, but where is that self? It is not in thought. Thoughts are just thoughts. They are not selves. All you're thoughts are ABOUT a self they are not actually a self. There is no self, you simply imagine it exists. It doesn't and the thought that it does is obscuring you from seeing reality as it really is. Instead you are living for a self you assume exists, imagining how each interaction in the real world affects that self.
Take a deep look at the illusion. Ask yourself is it true? Look at the ins and outs all the different parts, look at what are false assumptions, what is just a thought and what is true in reality. let me know, what you find.
February 18 at 8:53pm · Like
Susan agree there is no self to be found, except maybe in the rustle of leaves, or the sound of a stream. but self-concern still returns, as does self defence if an appearance of attack comes...what do i do about that?
February 20 at 3:40am · Like
Rohit What more is the I thought more than an empty sentence. It's empty. Just another thought. Thoughts cannot do things, they cannot stick, they cannot want anything. See? Is there a conscious thinker that chooses thoughts, or do thoughts just arise on their own? Doubts are fine. What is having the doubts? Where do the doubts come from?
February 20 at 1:45pm · Like
Susan They come on their own, the thoughts, and doubts from a feeling of fear which is from conditioning
February 20 at 2:00pm · Like
Rohit Take a look at what fear is.Not the content. What is it? Where does it exist?
Friday at 2:05pm · Like
Susan in the mind?
Friday at 2:05pm · Like
Susan also feels physical and felt around the throat area
Friday at 2:10pm · Like
Rohit There's no such thing as a 'mind'. There's just a thought ... So there is no such thing as fear. There is a thought that describes something that could happen. But it's ONLY a thought. isn't it? Don't Agree LOOK
Friday at 2:10pm · Like
Susan agree, its just a thought, a story
Friday at 2:11pm · Like
Rohit do YOU exist other than thought?
Friday at 2:13pm · Like
Susan no, not as a separate identity
Friday at 2:14pm · Like
Rohit Find out if there's really a you, separate from the experience, observing the sentences, or just sentences poping up as experience.
One of these is more true than the other, one of these fits reality better. Which one?
Friday at 2:17pm · Like
Susan no me separate from the experience, though there is observing the coming and going of thoughts and feelings, which seem pretty random.
Friday at 2:23pm · Like
Rohit what is seeing thoughts arising and passing?
Friday at 2:24pm · Like
Susan just awareness i guess
Friday at 2:25pm · Like
Rohit No guessing. Don't answer from what you know, or what you read, answer from direct SEEING.
And this: Awareness is another one of your thoughts. You are one of your thoughts.
Well see for yourself, can you find the observer anywhere? even in thought?
There are thoughts of an observer but that isn't the actual observer.
Where is the actual observer, can you find it anywhere?
Friday at 2:29pm · Like
Susan hehe no
Friday at 2:30pm · Like
Susan but there is existing!
Friday at 2:30pm · Like
Rohit You're going to have to take this a step further, and see if your understanding of the concept corresponds with the reality outside of that concept.
It’s good idea to get outside into nature. Watch animals, babies, other people. See how everything moves, wiggles, trees, grass, animals, birds, humans, the body that is here now. Notice how everything is happening effortlessly. Notice how everything simply is. See how seeing just happens. There is no one behind the eyes, no watcher, no observer, only watching, observing happening in the present moment. Mind is doing it's usual business of labelling experience and it is also just happening by itself without an effort. If there is a doubt, notice that, look right at it, see it for what it really is. It is just a thought that arises and passes away. Keep looking at the obvious. Focus. Is there a focuser? Or focusing happening?
Friday at 2:35pm · Like
Susan live in woods here surrounded by natures processes, the stream, the wind, the animals and feel no separation with them at all...I am them, the rustle sound the rock, everything seen...BUT sitting here in my little office Im in a complete panic about the bills due this week that there in no money for....
Friday at 2:39pm · Like
Susan to give an example of the ping ponging experienced between these
Friday at 2:40pm · Edited · Like
Rohit Haha. so if you are sure with this, should i ask you the final questions?
Friday at 2:43pm · Like
Friday at 2:44pm · Like
Rohit Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
Friday at 2:46pm · Like
Rohit ans please answer them in detail
Friday at 2:46pm · Like
Friday at 2:46pm · Like
Susan 1. No, there has only ever been an idea of a me, a belief, a story, a habitual thought of separation that is the 'I', and a fabricated identity...'Im this kind of person,Im that kind of person' etc. There was never a me or a self or anything that is separate from anything else.
2. We are given a name as babies, our often parents dont respond to our needs, they may for example, let us cry far too long before holding us, or shout or even hit us.....and so we feel alone, get scared, we think our needs wont be met, and this becomes a belief, and we taught as young children the idea of a 'me' and a 'mine', an idea of good and bad and an idea of worthy or unworthy of love based on our compliance, and we learn to split off and to have self concern, to protect 'ourselves'. We are taught to identify with our bodies, and then WE feel scared and unsafe, we are taught to seek security from that by chasing money, power, admiration and attention from others to counter the fear and belief in lack. This leads to thinking a lot about the future, and planning, a running scared, which doesnt allow for much being still and present.
Once a belief in separation is adopted, others are seen as separate, as allies or competitors, this creates drama and many more stories, and we position ourselves in relation to others, better than, worse than..... Nature is seen as separate and it then becomes something to exploit to satisfy our drive for an illusive sense of safety and security. We are taught to believe every thought as true and to conceptualise experiences to maintain a sense of control, which separates us from experiencing directly.
3. Its a fabulous joyful relief, and see that it never wasnt true. As a child I would escape to our large wooded garden, and beauty and love was always there, non separation experienced with textures, flowers, water, bees and birds. Ever since that time, nature has been a refuge, from a world that believes in separation, where the sense of 'I' dissolves completely into that rock, the stream sounds, the still bare branches...alone, in silence, in nature.
However Im also running a business (we design and build gardens) and live in the world and sometimes I have old strong fears returning and grabbing all my attention, "you should feel scared" they shout, " you should feel concerned about this and that, what if this happpens, you cant let me go, I protect you and warn you about scary things!" That is the voice of fear and then its being lost in 'self concern' again. Then I go do something out in nature, go into a stream in my wellies, and spalsh around, relax and I feel restored again. The smile comes back.
4. Well these human beings on Earth, they arrive in a state of oneness and wholeness with everything, and they are taught to develop a sense of separation, and develop an idea of a 'self' that is separate from the other 'selves' and they get very scared, and they think they are their bodies and feel very vulnerable.....then spend much of their lives trying to compensate for that by collecting a special identity together, and people and lots of stuff, by trying to buy permanence through buying a house (hahaha as if you can 'own' a wall or a bit of land !lol)....and they tend to suffer a lot, and erect a screen between themselves and experiences.
They never completely lose a sense of reality though, and just about all of them experience it in the sight of a beautiful sunset, awe and non separation, a glimpse of life beyond self referencing thougths...a 'this it IT' moment. The illusion of separation is strong though and their sense of wanting to belong and fit in with their community makes them buy into and cling to their belief in separation and the whole drama that goes along with that. Sometimes suffering can lead them to question and start to break free, few seem to wake up easily from it. It takes courage to question the illusion as the others tend to ridicule and shun them.
5. Didnt ever lose the feeling of non separation and oneness completely, and every day found time for the sustenance of the beauty and joy in nature. And I knew I was on a 'path' early on and then I discovered at 14 the Journey to Ixtlan by Castaneda, and it was a joy to read...and then more books by others who had remembered. Years later I ended up with my own business, and the recession hit 2 years ago and it has got harder to make it work, and I grew very very stressed waking up in panic with fearful thoughts in the night, leaning a little too much on wine and cigarettes valium....becoming snappy, and feeling guilty, and not able to relax properly, and decided to make a radical change. I moved out of the apartment in the city to a cottage in the woods about 6 months ago, to change the rhythm back to nature where there is no feeling of separation. The fear feels even more intense now against this backdrop though, and it doesnt want to me to give it up!
Friday at 6:23pm · Like
Susan and fear in response to this opening to and being completely ok with the uncertainty of the freedom, fear of being fearless hehe
Friday at 7:56pm · Like
Rohit << The fear feels even more intense now against this backdrop though, and it doesnt want to me to give it up!>>
look this fear straight in the eyes, don't blink, look what's there...
When you have fear, trace it back as far as it can go. What do you see? Where does it come from? Does it come from anything at all?
It's just a feeling or a thought.
And it's not a problem unless you honestly don't see that it comes from nowhere. UNLESS it is clear that it isn't, couldn't, never did, nor will ever come from some actual thing called a self.
Friday at 8:02pm · Like
Susan its not real, its a thought / belief that the fear is somehow protecting me, it starts as a thought then becomes a feeling in the body. it reminds me of that story about the prisoner sitting in the cell, though the door is open, and he is free, he feels safer in the familiar cell.
Friday at 8:09pm · Edited · Like
Susan its conditioning
Friday at 8:10pm · Unlike · 1
Rohit I will let other guides review our conversation and let us see if they have any questions.
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