Rohit and Bjorn

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Rohit
Posts: 272
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:57 pm

Rohit and Bjorn

Postby Rohit » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:10 am

Bjorn: Thank you for adding me to this group.
I am 35 years of age, three kids and so on.
I feel like I have found what I was looking for for all of my life.
Falling deeper into it as we speak, into this bottomless nothing.
Just enjoying the scenery, the sights, the smells, the tastes, the sounds.
I must say I took an alternative route.
I found that ingesting some pot puts me right into an expanded awareness and confronts me with the ever alert and ever (horror-)storytelling ego part of the mind.
I compare this experience to an iceberg which comes out of the water where the water represents the uncounscious/unaware zone and the iceberg represents the thought processes hiding.
The iceberg rises upon awareness expansion, more is experienced in awareness of that which was hidden ( thus unknown experiences are experienced ).
Up until very recently there seemed no way around this ego horror story which is percieved upon awareness expansion.
Recently I could finally put some of the reading and listening of zen theory to practise and let the ego ramble without creating a "My-story" out of it (actually the ego was unexpectedly very silent...).
The only thing that happened was I focussed on anything other then mind stories.
Could be the texture of a piece of wood, could be the body breathing, anything but the story-identification.
Focussing on stuff that actually has substance seemed to liberate.
I do practise zen meditation for some time now and find it has had a queieting effect on the mind chatter.
But this has been de drop that made the bucket flow over.
I guess I am on my way.
Discovering there is no I but only awareness able to experience an I if it so chooses.
Exciting times!
Thank you.
Bjorn.
Like · · Unfollow Post · February 13 at 7:59pm


Bjorn Is there a guide who wants to talk to me ?
February 14 at 1:46pm · Like

Rohit Hi Bjorn, Look to see if life really happens on it's own, without a you choosing it's actions or thinking it's thoughts?
February 14 at 2:01pm · Like

Bjorn Life does happen on its own.
Although there seems to be a choice in where the focus goes .
February 14 at 2:06pm · Like

Rohit but is that true? You see, if all separation is an illusion, then any discussion about some illusory self making a choice or not would be useless. isn't it? Are you afraid to think that you have no control?
February 14 at 2:10pm · Like

Bjorn Normally I do not feel afraid of losing control consciously.
In expanded awareness I seem to have been aware of a debilitating angst of losing control.
So yes, I was aware of a part of this illusion which I call 'me' that is or was afraid of losing control.
And there was identification with this 'me' so there was an I which felt afraid.
When recently I did not feel this fear when expected, what happened ?
"That is what is", I guess allthough it seemed an 'I' was doing that.
It seemed a 'me' was controlling that.
When there was not...
That puzzles me a bit.
February 14 at 2:48pm · Like

Rohit Can you elaborate on that? What do you mean?
February 14 at 3:26pm · Like

Bjorn good question Rohit Derasari .
I am trying to describe an experience in words.
February 14 at 3:34pm · Like

Bjorn I do not know what to say.
February 14 at 3:36pm · Like

Bjorn It seems time to let the rubber meet the road.
No more theorizing but experiencing.
February 14 at 3:37pm · Like

Bjorn Or being the experience by letting go of illusion of control
February 14 at 3:42pm · Like

Bjorn you know I know the theories, I read the books, I watched the youtube movies of every populair zen teacher out there, listened to days of mp3's from Alan Watts to Eckhard Tolle to Adyashanti to Leonard Jacobson and on and on.
I do get what they are saying.
Only thing is I still want to be the be-er if you get that
February 14 at 3:45pm · Like

Bjorn And I have a feeling I am so close
February 14 at 3:47pm · Like

Bjorn And a bit stuck
February 14 at 3:47pm · Like

Bjorn Stuck in something like limbo, being afraid to go on and not wanting to turn back to the old me.
February 14 at 3:49pm · Like

Bjorn not really afraid but not knowing what next
February 14 at 5:20pm · Like

Bjorn emptiness beckons me, until emptiness is all there is
February 14 at 5:22pm · Like

Rohit What is experiencing this emptiness? You can let go of what you believe, and if it's true, you'll find it again on the other side. Right now though, put on the lens that there is no you. See the world from that perspective. Don't look at the lens, look through them. See if it's accurate. See if it's true. See if it's real. And then you test it. You throw everything you've got at it. See if it can be falsified in anyway. Do that.
February 14 at 8:16pm · Like

Bjorn I did that.
I looked through my lenses literally (the lenses of my eyes) at what is.
In this way thoughts are ignored.
Thoughts to me represent being lost in illusions.
February 14 at 8:29pm · Like

Bjorn The fear of letting go is an illusion
February 14 at 8:31pm · Like

Bjorn so when I ignore the fear of letting go thoughts or any other thought telling me I am in grave danger of dying, of dissolving, I ignore by looking/tasting/feeling/etc what really is
February 14 at 8:32pm · Like

Bjorn The I is unfindable because it is just an illusion.
Any thought is made of the same non-substance as the imaginary 'I' and so relate to eachother like the I and the thought is real.
Breaking free of habitual thinking sets 'me' free of an I and the accompanying habitual thinking.
Then I can see the world as it really is seen by this body, this mind and this soul.
February 15 at 1:53pm · Like

Bjorn I is like mist
February 15 at 1:54pm · Like

Bjorn Still this has to sink in to be realized more
February 15 at 1:54pm · Like

Bjorn realized by who ? by no fractal but by the one, the all and the nothing.
February 15 at 4:00pm · Like

Rohit Exactly. Because there's nothing there to get, to see. No matter how much you want to, you'll never find it. Even as you read these words on this screen right now, there is no you involved at all. There is no you. Actually look, right now, as you read this. There is no you reading. There is reading, but there is no you involved in the process. There's just the process of reading, all of it taking place with no I.isn't it?
February 15 at 7:50pm · Like

Bjorn yep, just sights and sounds
February 15 at 11:43pm · Like

Rohit Was there ever a self?
February 16 at 9:21am · Like

Bjorn o, the so called I is merely a phantom, an illusion of I-ing.
February 16 at 3:25pm · Like

Rohit You seem to be giving all the right answers so obviously you understand this. But ... is this what you see? Write more ... try to give a clean rant

1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
2) Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.
3) How does it feel to be liberated? What's the difference between before and after liberation?
February 17 at 11:23am · Like

Bjorn ok, here we go.

1)Is there a me?

I guess the only place I can look is the here and now.
Is there a me now ?
There is the feeling of being a localized lump om stuff with things going on like pumping heart, thoughts, breath, blood flowing.
Also people can point at this concentration of stuff, talk to it, ask it questions.
So I must conclude there is something here, something I have been calling 'my body' and 'my mind'.
But is there a me owning this stuff in some way ?
Checking...
...
...
I can not identify any more besides what I wrote earlier.
No I, not a thing, not a process I could call 'me'.
Just this bio-machine.
So it makes no difference to call it me, I or mine.
It still functions in the same manner.
Only a knowing there is this untouchable no-thing that is the experiencing of stuff, the being aware, the observing silence.
So is this no-thing the real me ?

2)What is the self?
Ultimately the self is the aliveness, the experience itself with or without labels, it could as well be everything, the universum doing being humaning .

3)How does it feel to be liberated ?
Before liberation I worried a lot.
After liberation there can be awareness of worrying in the mind.
Before liberation I thought a lot.
After liberation there is awareness of thinking going on.
I guess that after liberation there is a knowing that all there is is aliveness manifesting in all sorts of weird but perfect forms and processes.
February 17 at 6:16pm · Like

Rohit <<So is this no-thing the real me ?>>
“You” will never discover who “you” are.it is merely a technique that
dissolves the concept of “I” in its entirety because “there is no I that you are,” so “You” will never discover who “you” are—”you” will discover only that YOU ARE NOT.

The idea is not the thing it is referring to. isn't it?

You don't seek liberation FROM the delusion. You see the delusion AS a delusion. The delusion will still largely continue. That's reality.

It all happens. Except it wasn't being done by anything. Wasn't then, isn't now. Notice how it all still happens anyway.

It's seeing that what you thought of as 'your' life isn't yours. It's just life. The body and the mind living. Being lived. No effort.

So, how rock solid are you with this?
February 18 at 8:39pm · Like

Bjorn Well Rohit I must say it is quickly sinking in .
Thank you for helping me with seeing this more clearly for what it is.
February 18 at 8:55pm · Like

Bjorn I have just started to be aware of this way of direct seeing.
I guess I am at the stage of cement hardening where rocksolid is concerned.
February 18 at 8:58pm · Like

Rohit Great. So how is it that there is no self? What does that say about life? Was all of what you thought you were just a character in a dream?
February 18 at 9:01pm · Like

Rohit Do you have any doubts left yourself?
February 18 at 9:02pm · Like

Bjorn Not any doubts that I can think off
No objections pop up.
February 18 at 9:06pm · Like

Bjorn While direct seeing it is clear there is no me, no watcher, no hearer, no taster, just seeing, tasting, hearing.
No xxx-er, no me, none.
It makes the experience so much richer.
February 18 at 9:09pm · Like

Bjorn I hope the concrete hardens and turns into granite
February 18 at 9:09pm · Like

Rohit Great...i want you to answer the following questions in detail:
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?
7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?
Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?
9) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?
10) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.
February 18 at 9:13pm · Like · 1

Bjorn I have had a good nights sleep and I am currently typing the response to your questions.
February 19 at 1:44pm · Like

Bjorn 1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?

The word 'I' is just a pointer.
And what does it point to ?
The collection of stories in the mind ? the body from which I seem to look out into the world?
You could as well ask if there is such a thing as a country, a city, a world or a universe.
It makes telling stories easier when one assumes there is things and point at them but is there really a world or an I ?
There is no thing separate from any other thing, we are all the same cloud of atoms swirling round and round.
Science stories tell us that we happen to be looking from a certain distance, in a certain frequency range at the atoms in question and seeing trees and clouds pass by, but is it really all containable in a story ? I do not think it can be contained in any story, It is unfathomably dimensionless and dimensionfull.
There is just experiencing, hearing, tasting, seeing, walking,humaning,earthing,suning, and on and on.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

Of coarse I can not describe this in perfect detail but here is a story I connect to this question.
The human is born omni-aware in oneness, without stories.
The illusion starts illusioning when around age 3 in the form of making up of stories about what is seen, felt, heard,...
It is re-inforced by words and actions of people around the child.
Mostly these people are fully establisched in the illusion of a separate I, they have identities, they have stories about stories about stories about ... lost in illusion
From then on the illusioning more and more divides the world in mine and not mine parts, in dualistics like good and bad, in hating and loving parts, hurt and bliss.
In this way it creates the illusion of an identity, an I, being a severed off part which has needs and can be hurt and has to be protected from the rest of the world using stories as its mode of defense and attack.
The I is growing into a real thick story.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

It is like gradually waking up from a dream.
Like curtains are slowly pulled aside.
Relaxation comes with revealing.
More stillness in the mind, more relaxation of the body, less stories.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

Have you felt something missing but you cant point at it ?
You know you have not heard the most important story of all ?
This story will rock your world from beneath your feet.
It is no story, it is the perfect direct experiencing you have been tricked out of since the age of three by a phantom called 'me' and 'I' which exists as long as it does.
Let go of stories and reconnect to life lifing.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

I rarely use cannabis, I am NOT a regular user at all but something intrigued me about the experience of cannabissing.
I started seeing when recently under the influence of the cannabis sativa.
Normally in the story what happens is when cannabis is cannabissing It is like meeting the fears of loosing control of the illusory controlling mechanisms in the mind magnified under a microscope.
I have sought this experience over and over for a period of 20 years and always bumped into this giant wall of fear.
In the last months I started looking into the content of the fear.
I then saw the fear is made out of silly stories like the sound of a dog barking can trigger a fear of death...
But always there was this little story atached which was triggering more stories and thoughts spiralling into fear of death in seconds.
Now what was different the last time cannabissing is I looked directly at something else.
In this way not giving any attention to the possibility of stories in the mind or the mind story-ing.
When looking directly into the grain of wood, when looking at the folds in a sheet, fully looking, no fearing is there, no stories.
This was a real breakthrough experience for me.
It seems as if the I was very fearful of me finding out it has always been illusory.
It was a afraid of loosing control over lifing.
It was afraid of dying.
And it did loose control But it didnt end lifing, life is still lifing just like before.
Difference is that now thing are seen more and more directly.

6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?

The fictional character in the story in the mind is pointed at by the word 'I' by the mind.

7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?
Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?

There is just experience.
The body and mind seems to be a tool for the experiencing, thus a part of the experience.

9) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?

relaxation and a sense of freedom

10) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.

wanting more freedom and awakeness
February 19 at 3:27pm · Like · 1

Rohit I will let other guides review our conversation and let us see if they have any questions.
Wednesday at 1:47pm · Like · 2

Bjorn Good, thank you
Wednesday at 2:00pm · Like

Bjorn I am very thankfull to you, Rohit for giving me the chance to deepen this experience, getting me over a hump.
Thank you and keep doing what you do.

Bjorn
Wednesday at 2:14pm · Unlike · 1

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