Gomi Lighter

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vinceschubert
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Gomi Lighter

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:39 pm

Hi Gomi, But first a contract.
Are you willing to;
(try and) post every day ?
To give 120% honesty to yourself and me ?
To relate only from your own experiencing, no second hand knowledge, quoting etc.
To suspend all other seeking type activities for the duration of this ? (reading, viewing, meditating etc.)
Not expect a transfer of knowledge. We are not teachers.
I will ask questions, you will not attempt to answer them for me, you will communicate the response that you experience to me. The questions are to position you to SEE, to DISCOVER, to RECOGNISE something for yourself.
Agreed ?

To use the quote function, first click "post reply"
Then scroll down to my post and highlight (drag mouse over) the question or part of it that you want to respond to, then click "quote" at the top of my reply. This will put the quote in the Reply editor. You then click after the quote and type your response.

Now, give me a rant on what your expectations are for being here. Your hopes, desires and what you actually expect might happen.

vince

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Gomi
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Re: Gomi Lighter

Postby Gomi » Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:00 pm

Hi Gomi, But first a contract.
Are you willing to;
(try and) post every day ?
To give 120% honesty to yourself and me ?
To relate only from your own experiencing, no second hand knowledge, quoting etc.
To suspend all other seeking type activities for the duration of this ? (reading, viewing, meditating etc.)
Not expect a transfer of knowledge. We are not teachers.
I will ask questions, you will not attempt to answer them for me, you will communicate the response that you experience to me. The questions are to position you to SEE, to DISCOVER, to RECOGNISE something for yourself.
Agreed ?

To use the quote function, first click "post reply"
Then scroll down to my post and highlight (drag mouse over) the question or part of it that you want to respond to, then click "quote" at the top of my reply. This will put the quote in the Reply editor. You then click after the quote and type your response.

Now, give me a rant on what your expectations are for being here. Your hopes, desires and what you actually expect might happen.

vince
a rant on what your expectations are for being here. Your hopes, desires and what you actually expect might happen.
I agree to all of the above...except for Mooji.
I go in and out of observation mode but have not yet been able to watch the watcher. This is after being a meditation teacher since 1979, being on and leading meditation courses, being on Byron Katie's workshop, being on 2 silent retreats from Mooji. To quote my kids " You speak a good game but your life doesn't reflect it." I don't know what else to do.Presently, I have a happy humanhood life.I actually have been asking for this as a vehicle for awakening. I seem to do crisis well. I lost a child, had breast cancer, a stem cell transplant. My processing and thinking isn't so sharp after the stem cell transplant and age. That's just what is so. I am graced to be part of a longtime spiritual sangha. I still get emotionally caught. I am feeling like giving up cause nothing seems to take me into freedom.Yet here I am being drawn to this. Is this just shopping around? I want to live in the vastness I get glimpses of, yet that causes total panic. Who knows...maybe the vastness is still of the mind. I know nothing. I feel inadequate to know. Inadequacy of knowing is where seem to be living from. Very discouraged.

Gomi

PS What is the BBCode?
What is parse URL's?
"Is it not possible that all of this happens without an "I"?...
Keep LOOKING into Direct Experience and SEE how things unfold."
Liberation Unleashed

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vinceschubert
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Re: Gomi Lighter

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:21 am

I agree to all of the above...except for Mooji.
Gomi
It's not that there is anything wrong with that other stuff, it's that we are looking to find new triggers and the familiar keeps you locked out of possibilities.
You can include Mooji (there is great affection here for 'him') if you report your direct experience of what occurs as you listen/watch.
We will also need to examine whether you have an addiction to some aspect of the result of partaking 'him'.
On second thoughts, as this may take all of our 'time', it may be better to leave that aside, at least for the early part of out inquiry.
but have not yet been able to watch the watcher
How does this fit into your expectations of being here ?
" You speak a good game but your life doesn't reflect it."
A good intellectual understanding is pretty useless as far as SEEing goes.
It is the NOW experiencing, that occurs as you consider questions, that is of interest (and value) here, and even that needs to be the first descriptive thoughts and not thoughts that are generated from those thoughts. (you will get good at this with practice)
I know nothing. I feel inadequate to know.
Hahahaaa, Ah Gomi, you say this with such discouragement, yet it is the most positive, actually brilliant, place to start this inquiry.
Tell me Gomi, when you consult experiencing NOW, is there any "I" anywhere ?

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Re: Gomi Lighter

Postby Gomi » Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:43 pm

Happy New Year! Also I really appreciate 'you' taking' your' time and effort with 'me'.

Thank you so much for the reminder of SEEING NOW. Now experiencing. Please keep reminding me of this.
How does this fit into your expectations of being here ?
My expectation is that I don't get tripped in ego.It will play itself out , but that I would be identified with Isness instead of identification with the ego. That I am able to watch the play of life and yet not take it personally. My ego kicks in big time and I watch through the ego...not the spacious vastness. For example my big ego tripper is in relationships. My granddaughter likes her other grandmother better, my friend pays more attention to another person. All petty, ego trappings. I have a sense of humor about it, but it still lingers with me. I notice ego competition. As I take my consciousness with me where ever I go, it so follows. Mooji should have paid more attention to ME...ad nauseum. I can observe, watch it, but I can't get past it or watch it from spaciousness most of the time. Or, if I do, it is short lived. "Who is it that is thinking this thought? "I bring that question in that but it is dealt with intellectually.
when you consult experiencing NOW, is there any "I" anywhere ?
There is a softness, spaciousness when this happens but it doesn't seem to stay very long.
It is the most positive, actually brilliant, place to start this inquiry.
While I love encouragement, I notice my ego gets stroked. :-)

Enjoy the moment,
Gomi
"Is it not possible that all of this happens without an "I"?...
Keep LOOKING into Direct Experience and SEE how things unfold."
Liberation Unleashed

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Re: Gomi Lighter

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:40 pm

Mornign Gomi.
Happy New Year!
...and a full range of emotions to you too, every year. Appreciation is a wonder-full connection, isn't it.
time and effort
Both are concepts that are not experienced here except for the occasional remnant.
My expectation is that I don't get tripped in ego
Do you see ego as an enemy ? Does it have independence ? Give me a few lines describing Gomi' ego.
that I would be identified with Isness
Do you see this as a goal ?
As I take my consciousness with me where ever I go, it so follows.
What is the relationship between "your consciousness" and ego ? Give me a couple of lines on on consciousness.
"Who is it that is thinking this thought?
When you ask this question, are you focused on an answer, or do you notice the process that occurs while considering it ? Ask the question now and watch, then describe.
watch it from spaciousness most of the time.
Is this an expectation of how it will be ?
There is a softness, spaciousness when this happens
This is a lovely feeling, isn't it.
Is it so nice because it is relative to other feelings ? Would you even notice it if it were permanent ?

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Re: Gomi Lighter

Postby Gomi » Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:03 am

Do you see ego as an enemy ? Does it have independence ? Give me a few lines describing Gomi' ego.
No, I don't see ego as an enemy. It doesn't have independence, it just obscures The Presence from moment to moment awareness.
Examples of this one's ego: I'm not intelligent enough/perceptive enough/wise enough to receive 'it', what I say doesn't make sense, so-in-so likes such-and-such better than me, so and so can do such and such better than me. Fear of being too quiet around people, inner pressure to talk. I'm too one pointed in spirituality, should be more worldly, can't relate to the majority of the people. Lived in the Silence as a kid. Was taught by my parents that is not acceptable in society. Now my mind/ego fears the Silence.

I actually do see identification as a goal...identification in oneness tho, not separateness. Yet, as I say this, identification can only be 2. Somewhere there is a goal. I'm not sure what. Freedom, spontaneous outpouring of Self into manifestation? Clarity? Love manifestation? It's vague at this point. It's clear I am trying to get something that my mind judges is not fully present already. Something in the present moment is lacking. Intellectually, I know this is not true. However, striving for something, and having no idea of how to achieve it is showing it's ignorant head.
What is the relationship between "your consciousness" and ego ? Give me a couple of lines on on consciousness.
Consciousness is the space upon/in which everything is, rests and is manifested. Ego is limited. Consciousness is an aliveness, flowing. Ego is limited, based upon an individual and its conditioning

"Who is it that is thinking this thought?
When you ask this question, are you focused on an answer, or do you notice the process that occurs while considering it ? Ask the question now and watch, then describe.
Who is thinking this thought? My mind...then I go into the need to perform. I flip out of the mind and go blank...degrees of deer in a headlight. Need to get it right. Perform.Without the pressure to perform, I seem to naturally hang out in the space consciously. It's not just a lovely feeling, it's 'who' I am... Yet because the awareness gets obscured, it shows up as spacious and soft. If it were permanent, I would not even notice it.
"Is it not possible that all of this happens without an "I"?...
Keep LOOKING into Direct Experience and SEE how things unfold."
Liberation Unleashed

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Re: Gomi Lighter

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:44 am

The Presence
Tell about this ?
Examples of this one's ego: I'm not intelligent enough/perceptive enough/wise enough to receive 'it', what I say doesn't make sense, so-in-so likes such-and-such better than me, so and so can do such and such better than me
Would it be accurate to say that these are beliefs about a self ?
I actually do see identification as a goal...identification in oneness
So explain how identification works.
Lived in the Silence as a kid.... Now my mind/ego fears the Silence.
tell about the Silence..
Freedom
Define "freedom"
spontaneous outpouring of Self into manifestation?
Some more on this, especially about the "self" bit.
It's clear I am trying to get something that my mind judges is not fully present already.
Are we talking about gaining something ?
Now my mind/ego fears...
Describe the experience of fear.
Consciousness is the space upon/in which everything is, rests and is manifested. Ego is limited. Consciousness is an aliveness, flowing.
Describe what is your actual experiencing of consciousness.

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Re: Gomi Lighter

Postby Gomi » Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:57 pm

OK...busted. Thanks for calling me out on what was written. I was doing Mooji's guided meditation this morning. I found myself not meditating as much as listening to what he was saying to answer the questions you asked. I am going for broke. No Mooji. No meditation. I am being 'left alone' to open to who knows what.

This is totally frightening to me...as I never trust myself. I am noticing tears welling up...It's like being alone in the forest with no way to go. I have not a clue. Fear of nothingness.No security. What if nothing appears? I'm watching the tears and fear. As I watch it, the silence appears. It is as solid as a flat piece of stainless steel, never ending. Yet as porous as dust flowing through the air. There is pure stillness, no movement, yet aliveness ever-present. Stillness is the backdrop of the fear showing itself. The fear is strong, yet the silence, the presence is within it and congealing as fear. No separation, still in silence, yet strong tightness. contraction My 'wanting' is appearing. Wanting what? Wanting to live in that Presence in the body with my eyes wide open. I am a stranger in a foreign country being embodied. In the stillness, there is nothing to do, in the body I have to do and feel lost..Its like I never can make the birthing of this body/mind well. Separation. No carryover. Being born into a body that is limited. In the Presence there isn't a body. There is awareness through no eyes, just it living itself out. The sharp, clear awareness, no performing. Dancing in moment;, solid even though in still silence. Tho that makes no sense. Being in the body I lose the clarity of awareness .. like Superman without the kryptonite . Bad analogy but some accuracy cuz words limit. When I identify with my body I am limited...and clueless how to 'return to living awareness in the silence. Forgive the words of separation.

I don't know what you are asking about 'spontaneous outpouring of self'. A concrete example of spontaneous outpouring of Self into manifestation? I was with my family in Jamaica as Mooji held his Christmas silent mediation retreat. Each of the family members had the freedom to do what we were called to do. I basically listened to Mooji's videos and meditated around the pool or the beach.In the evenings we played. It was sweet. Well, one Jamaican man came over and started to sing to our family at the pool. From NOWHERE, I got up with him and started dancing with him. Something spoke through me and said' Let's dance with soul' to the man. (He was looking everywhere and not putting himself into it. On many levels, I can see it was me...however I didn't notice this until after. I made no judgements, the movements were just being done. It just happened.) Later, my family said I had a lot of nerve doing this. Plus, I didn't even tip him. (We were at the pool and didn't have any money on us.) How dare I do this, they kept asking. They said I should take responsibility for this. It doesn't feel like I was the doer to take responsibility. I had no attachment whatsoever.
"Is it not possible that all of this happens without an "I"?...
Keep LOOKING into Direct Experience and SEE how things unfold."
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Re: Gomi Lighter

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:22 pm

Ahh, a beautiful opening to possibilities.
At first there is fear in the forest, but after a while when the wolves don't come, there is a relaxing, and then there starts to be a noticing of the beauty of the surroundings. This then starts the juices of loving and soon there is an appreciation of the connection with everything.
I am going for broke.
This commitment, this intention is the invitation for the dependent conditions to arise.
If you consider the existence of a Gomi 'self', describe what is found as you search. Can you locate that 'self' anywhere ? Is there anything even remotely like a 'self' other than as a mental construct, a story ?

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Re: Gomi Lighter

Postby Gomi » Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:37 am

Very different. No Mooji and no meditation. Living very unaware. Life happens, I respond with my conditioning. Watching is getting lost with average man on the street living. Sleep walking. Not much more to say. No effort to do anything 'spiritual'. I don't know about this, Vince....Robotic mental construct playing itself out.
"Is it not possible that all of this happens without an "I"?...
Keep LOOKING into Direct Experience and SEE how things unfold."
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Re: Gomi Lighter

Postby Gomi » Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:42 am

Reminds me of my mother, lying in front of the TV. Doing not too much else. Always wondered why she was living. Never wanted to be like her. My outer life is active and full, but living out the conditionings of my mind. All the spiritual stuff for naught. Here I was thinking I would be different.
"Is it not possible that all of this happens without an "I"?...
Keep LOOKING into Direct Experience and SEE how things unfold."
Liberation Unleashed

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Re: Gomi Lighter

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:25 am

Gomi, you didn't answer my question.
Describe what occurs as you consider it but answer it as well.
Can you locate that 'self' anywhere ? Is there anything even remotely like a 'self' other than as a mental construct, a story ?

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Re: Gomi Lighter

Postby Gomi » Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:46 am

:-), there is no self anywhere...not even remotely. I absolutely can not locate the self anywhere. I am clear about this. There is pure stillness as images appear on that slate. I have watched the mental constructs like a stack of cards, building and collapsing. Sandstorms. Most times, however, I get caught in believing the the illusion. Without asking 'how' to make it my permanent awareness, I don't know where to go with it.
"Is it not possible that all of this happens without an "I"?...
Keep LOOKING into Direct Experience and SEE how things unfold."
Liberation Unleashed

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Re: Gomi Lighter

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:18 am

Most times, however, I get caught in believing the the illusion.
...and each time it happens you realize that it has ? Sometimes afterwards ? sometimes while it is happening ? and sometimes as it is about to occur ?
Each time it is seen, it weakens. This is de-conditioning happening.
Without asking 'how' to make it my permanent awareness, I don't know where to go with it.
Don't worry about permanent, that will take care of itself. Nothing is permanent. Everything is always changing. Check your expectations if there is a story of how it will be.
I get caught in believing the the illusion.
Is it that this is happening, or is it that habit simply kicks in for a moment. If you see that you are operating in an automatic way, does it continue or is it immediately dropped ?

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Re: Gomi Lighter

Postby Gomi » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:51 pm

I know it is a house of illusion but RARELY loose the attachment until meditation...and then only infrequently. Mostly it feels like I am intellectually voicing that it is not real. De-conditioning seems mental. My expectations are that I would live from that state and not get caught into believing and acting from of false state of reality. You are correct...it is automatic. This is my source of frustration and sense of inadequacy. I don't know how to 'de-condition' from anything than mental state. I trip over my ego most of the time. I have a huge ego with massive attachments, judgements, etc. Ugh! Double ugh!!! I am also watching how this is part of this one's ego to keep myself caught. Sounds pretty obnoxious to even me. Totally pathetic. What seems to happen, I rapidly jump in with mental spiritual judgements.I get a payoff of 'See, I can't do it". I don't give myself the space to quiet down, not do and then shift into that awareness.... Lightness and humor is arising. Ain't life fun.Less contraction, less grabbiness, spaciousness, but it feels like relaxation, rather than the vastness. Even this is a judgement of my conditioning. I am expecting something to change and automatically 'I' would move into THAT inner knowing awareness." Still in mind. Watching that. More frustration. Believing in time. It should happen but it's not. Then I go into mental thinking' It already IS". But not for this one. Such is the circular reasoning process. Yes, I know I shouldn't reason, but that is just what is going on.
"Is it not possible that all of this happens without an "I"?...
Keep LOOKING into Direct Experience and SEE how things unfold."
Liberation Unleashed


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