Otter i'll have the usual please. :) no but i signed up for a 3 on 1 on the forums. but maybe facebook would be better. i'm really open. i'm ready to just get started. i dont know how we usually start so i'll do more listening than talking about myself. i'm willing to share anything but i wont belabor anyone with my story without reason. show me the next step i guess. ...is how you can help me. thank you so much by the way.
October 7 at 2:20pm via mobile · Like
Rohit working simultaneously is not a great idea. You can continue in 3 on 1. :)
October 7 at 2:26pm via mobile · Like
Otter yes. but i am saying i dont think i will do the 3 on 1. i signed up for that only today. then i realized facebook is an option. i think i prefer facebook. i remain open to everything though.
October 7 at 2:49pm via mobile · Like
Otter i havent started working with anyone yet. it doesnt matter to me who it is. i am guessing when i start with someone i will make sure to not take another guide after. whether here or forums.
October 7 at 2:56pm via mobile · Like
Rohit One important thing to ask is, that whatever teachings, beliefs or spiritual practices, you have acquired along your journey till now; Please put them aside until this conversation is over. All I can do here is give you questions and The work is yours to do. Please spend time with each question and answer from your own experience when ready. If answer is not coming, Be honest and write that. are you ready ? What expectations do you have from becoming Liberated? what do you expect from this conversation ? LOOK at word "SELF". what does it point to?
October 7 at 3:48pm · Like
Otter i agree to all that. i know all the "right answers" already. i know that isnt important. i will start from here. ok... my expectation of liberation is to feel liberated. i dont expect to be happy all the time but to have a peace inside that does not rely on outside circumstances. (I already have a dissatisfaction that does not rely on outside circumstances. Why not peace instead.)
i expect from this conversation to have my expectations shattered. i feel i'm on an edge and just need the right push to go over. i expect to be embarrased like a person looking for their glasses when they are already wearing them. and when i look directly to the word SELF... after all my teaching and experiences of no self, right now i still feel something solid there. like my sensations centered in this body is "my self" more important than other body selfs. something i must maintain. the word self points to... it is blurry. and i know its unreal but you say answer from experience right now. ok
October 8 at 12:38am via mobile · Edited · Like
Otter I will continue to check a few times a day for your replies. This is a priority for me. But I am on u.s. west coast (Seattle area) so i know my time may be different. I don't know where you are.
October 8 at 5:58am via mobile · Like
Rohit I am india, GMT+5.30. After the recognition that there is no self, everything remains the same but there is no one to claim them. What is self? Where does the thought that it can be something come from? Trace it.
October 8 at 9:20am via mobile · Like
Otter smiling. ok. ...when you say after recognition of no self everything remains the same... i know there is no self. but we know recognition or realization are not the same as believing an accepted "fact". so even when i said i know, that is incorrect. i can say more honestly i have been intellectually convinced that there is no self. so yes i admit there is no self and everything remains the same. if i get too upset or suffer somehow i can calm myself with that BELIEF. i know that is not liberation. i still feel someone is here to claim everything happening in this experience. it makes me suffer so i just let go... it brings instant peace. then mind self comes back and wraps around what is happening again. suffering follows shortly. That tells me this shift is incomplete. I still cause myself suffering with selfish behavior. like one who knowingly drinks poison just because he is so thirsty. ..ok... you didn't ask that... back to the point.
Where does the thought that self can be something arise from?... it just arises. From where? I cant even guess. The same nowhere that sound goes when you dont hear it anymore. Yet... Something grabs at experience and says "mine". I know it is not this being, yet here it is. Illusions can look very real and knowing it is illusion does not make the appearance go away. That is why I sought guidance. Keep hammering at this stupidity please. No mercy. :)
October 8 at 9:45am via mobile · Edited · Like
Rohit Yes, recognition and beliefs are two different things. Don't accept your beliefs but challenge and see if they stand true. You did not answer my last question.
October 8 at 9:44am via mobile · Like
Otter upon further inquiry i see that there isnt much THOUGHT that the self can be. mostly conditioned behavior. i feel like a robot who must break it's programming. Or there is there no conditioning without thinking now to fuel it? I am talking too much. I cant seem to say it right. I'd say sorry for all my story talk but i see you are good at skipping over anything unimportant. thanks. i wait for your next questions.
October 8 at 10:07am via mobile · Edited · Like
Rohit Close your eyes and LOOK can you find the feeler of feelings? See can you find the thinker of thoughts? Can you find someone experiencing the sensations?
October 8 at 10:03am via mobile · Like
Otter no. i only find sensations and something that likes it or not. i dont find a central point of experience or self. There is experience happening. To be completely honest something still identifies with the experience of sensation. I sit here and consider openly. There is nothing there truly when looking for self or experiencer. Yet the movements and experience is still of an I judging all that is experienced. An echo of nothing taking itself as something. I hope my responses are useful. I am working earnestly to be completely honest with what I see now when I look. (Not think) but I wont be surprised to learn I am just making a story.
October 8 at 10:47am via mobile · Edited · Like
Rohit see, can an object exist in any way other than as the thought of it? If so, how would its existence be verified? How would we know whether something existed in the the absence of thought of it?
October 8 at 11:17am via mobile · Like
Otter R give me just a short time to taste what you have asked. i will comment again as soon as i feel i can talk honestly. from current experience. i will respond as soon as i can be sure my answer is short and accurate. possibly soon. we will see.
October 8 at 11:26am via mobile · Unlike · 1
Otter can an object exist without my thought? i could never know. from i there is only perception. or awareness. the only verification this being can have is through experience / awareness / consciousness. i sat with this for a while and i sincerely dont see how i could ever know if something exists without this experience.
October 8 at 11:50am via mobile · Edited · Like
Rohit what is this, does it point to something real? Is I more real than batman? Sensations are, feelings are, thoughts are, awareness is but where are you?
October 8 at 12:59pm via mobile · Like
Otter right now the answer does not come so i will write that. it isnt more real than batman. i get that. but where am i? i dont know. where is batman right? just an imagination.
October 8 at 1:11pm via mobile · Like
Rohit see, how everything is just happening. Examine thoughts, are they really happening without a you doing it? Look at your breathing, heart beating, how is it happening?
October 8 at 1:25pm via mobile · Like
Rohit see, how everything is just happening. Examine thoughts, are they really happening without a you doing it? Look at your breathing, heart beating, how is it happening?
October 8 at 1:26pm via mobile · Like
Otter it all happens without an I to controll it. it is all running along fine without any help from me. I don't know how.
October 8 at 1:35pm via mobile · Edited · Like
Rohit what wants to know?
October 8 at 2:08pm via mobile · Like
Otter i dont know. i will go to bed now and try to answer in the morning. that will be my question for the night. i sense the answer is in staying in the question. like a zen koan. ok goodnight. i will talk more in the morning.
October 8 at 2:14pm via mobile · Unlike · 1
Otter i cant locate a central being that wants to know. there is only wanting. this is what i expected but i seriously put aside all expectation and really looked. i cant find anything but as i suspected the looking and asking seems to be the answer already.
October 8 at 11:38pm via mobile · Like
Otter there is a story being told here by me. the story seems to be "i already know all the tricks and keys and have experienced enough that liberation should have already happened so maybe it is hopeless for me" i see it is just a story and "I thoughts" yet my life (this life) seems to go on the same as if i really believed it. It seems to feel very dissapointing. Who feels that? I cant find that. There is just that feeling right now (not always). So if there is no one experiencing it it isn't so bad... I feel liberation there. (Liberation is felt) Haha. Then the mind says "yes but you have felt this many times before and there is no permanent change". I sense I am running around mentally and missing an important insight.
October 9 at 12:00am via mobile · Edited · Like
Rohit what is it that knows whether or not you are liberated?
October 9 at 9:29am via mobile · Like
Otter nothing. simple awareness is aware.
October 9 at 10:08am via mobile · Like
Rohit have YOU experienced simple awareness? What is the contradiction in this question?
October 9 at 10:16am via mobile · Like
Otter the contradiction is that there is no me to experience anything. there is just awareness and experience. not one who is aware or experiencing (?)
October 9 at 10:24am via mobile · Like
Rohit Now apply this
understanding to reality. Go out for a walk
or get among people and notice the fact
that you are in fact, already seeing no self,
anywhere, at all. come back and tell me,
what is true?
October 9 at 10:32am via mobile · Like
Otter ok. i think i do this a lot already but i will put that aside and do it again as if it is the first time. i will come back about 15minutes.
October 9 at 10:35am via mobile · Unlike · 1
Otter no self is happening everywhere. some things (People) seem like there is a self there but i dont see proof of a self anywhere. i asked my girlfriend to sit with me 1 minute while doing nothing. then went in the back yard with my dogs and watched the night. there was movement and color and sensation but not a self anywhere.
October 9 at 10:53am via mobile · Like
Rohit do you exist?
October 9 at 11:02am via mobile · Like
Otter no. the clearest answer to that seems to be no. asking and checking slides me into a sense of freedom. finding an answer gives the mind a chance to find a corner on the circle. no i dont exist in any way i can prove.
October 9 at 11:07am via mobile · Like
Rohit Good. If you are ready, should i ask the final questions?
October 9 at 11:12am via mobile · Like
October 9 at 11:13am via mobile · Edited · Like
Rohit Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way,
shape or form? Was there ever? how about
self, is there anything that is separate from
October 9 at 11:14am via mobile · Like
Otter R i cant see how anything is seperate. even when i feel anxious and tight and that i have a strong self with many needs those are just experiences. there is nobody to actually experience it.
October 9 at 11:17am via mobile · Like
Rohit Explain in detail what the illusion of
separate self is, when it starts and how it
October 9 at 11:19am via mobile · Like · 1
Otter there is only experience of 'me'
October 9 at 11:20am via mobile · Like
Rohit can you elaborate that?
October 9 at 11:22am via mobile · Like
Rohit can you elaborate that?
October 9 at 11:22am via mobile · Like
Otter yes. facebook on this device makes me miss some posts at first. the last question just appeared. i will take some time to sit on that egg until it hatches. i can answer now from memory but i will recheck. a few minutes and i will respond.
October 9 at 11:25am via mobile · Unlike · 1
Otter this one is tougher for me. i will take the rest of the night (it is 10pm here) and really be with that question. i will respond in the morning. then i work from 11am until about 7pm pacific time. so that is perfect. i notice you start to reply at about 8pm pacific time. thank you. until tomorrow.
October 9 at 11:32am via mobile · Like
Otter the answer isnt coming. i will take the question with me through the day.
October 10 at 12:07am via mobile · Unlike · 1
Otter i start to get at something with this question and then i hit a wall. the answer does not seem to be coming. i have a few mental ideas. mostly from reading other peoples books. but i just run into a fog when i try to check it out for myself. i may need a little more time. i asked this to myself 100 times today and will keep looking a million more times until an answer appears.
October 10 at 10:36am via mobile · Like
Otter (i know i said I and Myself a lot. i dont know how esle to speak haha.)
October 10 at 10:38am via mobile · Like
Rohit No issues Otter, take your time and figure out what is true.
October 10 at 4:31pm · Like
Otter thanks. i am meditating on it every chance i get. i have some progress. it is coming together. not yet though. maybe tonight.
October 10 at 7:48pm via mobile · Unlike · 1
Otter i have the beginnings of an answer: there is self. but there is not really any seperate self. all is self. but each person can only percieve from their unique perspective which seems to be the root of illusion of seperation. its a very good illusion! . if i hit someone i dont feel their pain. if i am hungry and put food in someone else's mouth it doesnt ease my feeling of hunger. if i have a need and it is not instantly met there is a feeling of seperation. i feel i'm still in the process of finding the truth here but making progress. it still isnt clear.
October 11 at 9:36am via mobile · Like
Rohit What is this self? Where does the thought that it can be something come from?
Sometimes people can trick themselves,
dismissing the self or I, but really they have
only abandoned the words or concepts, and
have established an identity somewhere else.
It's a trick. Keep looking for the source or
base of your I and report what you find
October 11 at 9:51am via mobile · Like
Otter i see nothing at the source or base of I. i understand when you talk about abandoning concepts and forming a new identity. when i say all is self i only mean consciousness before the "i am" arises. it is just the closest description of truth i have found yet.
October 11 at 10:12am via mobile · Edited · Like
Otter i dont mean i am not limited so i must be unlimited or all. hehe. and the truth is not in identifying with "i am nothing" either. still looking though. thank you again.
October 11 at 10:09am via mobile · Like
Rohit how does it feel to see this?explain in detail
October 11 at 10:19am via mobile · Like
Otter it just feels open. a little confusing still. i will take another day and report again tomorrow night. or as soon as an answer becomes clear.
October 11 at 11:05am via mobile · Unlike · 1
Otter i will continue working on this question. still work to be done. but i experienced liberation. i was awakened from sleep a few minutes ago by my cat (she is on my lap watching me type this. A spiritual friend told me he met my cat in spirit and she is a great Siddha. Maybe so! ) and decided to sit for meditation and self inquiry. i finally noticed that this person is seeking liberation and thats just fine. it is happening on its own and theres nothing i need to do about it. otter is being pulled along without any help needed from me. i know i have to say me and I or i wouldnt be able to communicate it in writing but you probably understand. it is such a relief. the truth verifies itself. i sense some work is left to do and i may not be stable in this new freedom. i will probably relax into it a little more as time goes on. i continue to work on looking at your questions though for now. namaste!
October 11 at 7:26pm via mobile · Edited · Like
Otter Dont worry. I wont take it as new and better seperate identity hehe. Just a little more celebrating then back to work :) Thought i should get a picture of it. This is the view of where it happened right after I typed that last message. Just turned the device around to snap this picture.
http://m.www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php? ... 0540426860
October 11 at 7:24pm via mobile · Edited · Like
Rohit Let me know what you find. keep writing :)
October 11 at 11:16pm · Like
Otter i know there is a difference between spiritual experience and spiritual awakening. i also know liberation is not a goal or completion. i dont become free i just realize freedom. these questions u ask still seem to confuse me. when i look closely it still gets so blurry though seemingly getting clearer. it was just such a relief to see i'm not the one doing it. looking is happening. then life continues and i find myself in old conditioning. then i find i experience doubt in liberation. then i see there i'm not doubting. there is experience of doubt. i write this and worry it is incorrect, then i let go. it's not my burden to worry about that. There is more work (questioning and looking) to be done. And it just happens. No need for ke to identify with the experience. letting go feels like such a relief. like arriving home. i will continue looking and telling you what i find. I will write again tonight.
October 12 at 12:54am via mobile · Edited · Like
Rohit There is the decision to look but it is not yours. Are you really taking the decision? No one is supposed to look and question. It is just looking and questioning. Doubts are fine. What is having the doubts? Where do the doubts come from? It's not your doubt. It's just a feeling or a thought. And it's not a problem unless you honestly don't see that it comes from nowhere. UNLESS it is clear that it isn't, couldn't, never did, nor will ever come from some actual thing called a self. Otherwise it's just doubt. Just a feeling. It's not always there is it?
October 12 at 8:25am · Like
Otter its not always there. and i understand it's not me doubting. i said "i'm not doubting. there is experience of doubt". there is experience of "after all this i still am not free" but that is also a thought and a story. the liberation i experienced this morning was just an experience too. although it felt very powerful, and it is still happening. but it isnt anything permanent. which is fine. i never tried to grab onto it. feelings can come and go. i find myself a few times sleep walking through life again and then remember I 'm free! life is just happening. watching closely to make sure I'm not using it as a new identity. something in me tried a few times. and i really feel like you're right about the decision to look is not mine. i think i was really trying to look! i also doubted a few times talking to you on LU hehe. like they will just ask me who sees it and who feels it, i can do that myself. :) i see clearly u dont just do that. you reflect to me the face i cant see.
October 12 at 11:31am via mobile · Like
Rohit Hehe. How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it?
October 12 at 5:49pm · Like
Otter sorry i am so busy on weekends as a musician. i came back to this question many times. seeking an answer that feels clear and true. if you are asking how i would describe liberation to someone who is curious but never heard of these illusions... the answer that comes out first is it is just all happening. it isnt painful to lose the illusion of self. everything stays the same. and also nothing is ever the same. you can forget and believe illusions again for a while then lightning strikes and you are none of it. there are just reflections and echoes of nothing happening. it is only sad if you want to believe u are the seperate self. i think i would do a bad job of explaining it. haha. had to try.
October 14 at 9:51am · Like
Rohit What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
October 14 at 3:10pm · Like
Otter always gradual. and maybe i am over an edge or not. a new edge for sure. its pretty subtle but definitely there every time i check. the most recent 'last bit that that pushed me over' was a few days ago. woken up early & decided to sit and look at question you asked the night before. and there was a kind of stepping to the side and seeing this guy is doing some seeking and thats fine. i dont need to get wrapped up in it. then every time since i have remembered to check, that complete freedom of no self in me or others, its always there if i check. sometimes it helps me feel better, sometimes not. and thats fine too. i dont know if it's really liberation. i am trying not to worry about that at all. i cant claim any attainment but it's not about that i know. more of a letting go. every time i remember. it's doing itself. otter is being pulled along into this or that. probably all for the best. i dont need to have issues about it.
October 14 at 3:48pm · Like
Rohit The movement, the living continues, including a FEELING of being I/Me/Myself. But you can see that there is nothing that controls the living, the movement. Nothing solid and identifiable.
October 14 at 5:08pm · Like
Otter exactly. i may say it wrong. i agree more with what you said. there is still illusion of a solid Me experiencing and believing my judgements must be important. but there is also none of that if i remember to look closer. the part that feels so free to me is exactly that nothing is controlling it. it's just a bunch of stuff happening. i dont kow why. or if there is even a reason. i just watch it and its also me just as much as nothing. if there is a self, it is that. nothing moving. or emptiness moving. i am still in the middle of a lot of personal situations and maybe have to watch the illusion of going through a process of waking up in the physicaL form. so i am really humble and not saying i've achieved anything. and i dont know if it could all change back any time. i'm just relaxing and seeing. right now. and other times. any time i am conscious enough to check. and that whole thing is just spontaneous. i dont have to make it happen.
October 14 at 5:29pm · Like
Otter i'm interested to see what changes unfold over time if i still stay this way. i'll tell you if it changes. i dont feel attached to a new way of being. i'm just looking right now.
October 14 at 5:35pm · Like
Rohit Take your time and let me know what comes up. :)
October 14 at 5:37pm · Like
Otter ok. i sense you have seen this a thousand times and are just waiting for me to tell you the things that WILL come up. :) well i'm here for it. lets see.
October 14 at 5:38pm · Like
Rohit haha.:) be curious of everything that is happening. Keep Looking. Will get back to you tomorrow.
October 14 at 6:05pm via mobile · Like · 1
Otter ok. i have a lot to say already but it's better to wait. taking the time makes me speak more clearly with less otter stories. :) & :(
October 14 at 6:07pm · Unlike · 1
Rohit look at everything with a :)
October 14 at 6:16pm via mobile · Like
Otter good advice. thats what i would tell someone else. if i am honest, it is both frown and smile right now. and thats ok. that is the real smile. goodnight world. :))
October 14 at 6:20pm · Unlike · 2
Otter i find awakeness and no self happens pretty spontaneously. i always thought liberation would change my outside circumstances by changing my inner circumstance. it turns out i am just awake and aware of all the bad things i do :) pre conditioned programming. happens on its own as i watch. (?) i heard something about after care on the forums. maybe i should look into that
October 17 at 2:59am via mobile · Like
Otter ok. i see after care is for when you are confirmed as "in the gate". i have no idea if i am in a gate. maybe.
October 17 at 3:17am via mobile · Like
Rohit Ok Cool, I will let other guides review our conversation and let us see if they have any questions. :)
October 17 at 5:32pm · Like
Otter ok. i am just really humble and wanting to be completely honest with (myself) hehe. i mean i want to really get real. i know i discovered a new way of being that is there whenever i relax and check on it. but i dont want to claim anything. i'd rather spend years working on entering the gate than be confirmed prematurely. i feel like you guys should test me extra hard. (my) ego knows all the right spiritual answers. thats why LU has been such a blessing. mine is the only face i cant see. lu is a good mirror. i just want truth. or i mean there is no interest in goals other than truth. whatever that may be. am open to the possibility that i am really nowhere close to the gate. or maybe i am in. i am open to that too. the ego self is tricky, but then i dont know what to expect so i may be in the gate. I dont feel confused. I just really dont know and am not trying to figure it out. The mind tries to leap to an answer. The stillness inside says stop, wait, and watch. No self anywhere... i dont know if this is right or not. I am in new territory. Best to step carefully. sorry its early. I just woke up. just typing as i think. :) thanks.
October 17 at 7:23pm via mobile · Edited · Like
Rohit If there are any doubts, we are here to assist you to finish line. How is life now compared to before? How are negative thoughts and negative feelings now percieved in light of the recognition that there is no self? Are there any doubts at all that there is no self?
October 17 at 7:59pm via mobile · Like
Otter life is the same except it is never not ok. there is no more believing anything is really important enough to get upset. i can be surprised by something while in a less conscious state and start to get upset but that then triggers me to look closer and remember there is no self. it is a huge relief. and i feel everyone else has been liberated with me. i am noticing more and more no self in others which really frees me up to act naturally without concern for others' judgements. i have experienced awakenings many times bu i think i kind of skipped over the no self part rather than staying there. didnt realize the benefits of not having a self. i found that all is awareness and that is the same awareness in all life. and i even learned that it is a trap to use that realization as a new identity but i think i still was somehow. i always felt that safety inside that everything really is ok. but have really had to deal with moments of intense despair. i think lu helped the most by letting me see this solid feeling of a self that was still there after all this awakening is just a feeling of self. it is happening without any need for me to be wrapped up in it. so there is no doubt that there is no self. there is some depression when i realize the circumstances i find myself in that i have previously set up for myself that i have to deal with now. but like i said i feel freedom not to have to feel identified with the struggle. the work now seems to be not trying to use the "spiritual bypass" to not deal with the situations i find i am in. the doubt comes from seeing this selfishness and dishonesty that still remains. not like i am a horrible person. there are just some areas that need work. and i had assumed some spiritual awakening would change my behavior haha. there is doubt, negative behavior and selfishness but i am not it. but it is all one including the illusions so i dont want to ignore it. work remains to be done but i dont have to identify with that process and make myself feel guilty to fix it. maybe there is help for me in after care.
October 18 at 2:29am via mobile · Edited · Like
Rohit All is happening without control. Is this true, that there is no “I” to experience, that “I” is just a thought that passes by, without control? A thought preceding other thoughts. And thought does not think. To help this process along, you can look at the most precious beliefs closest to your heart. Just examine what is there, identify and release.
October 18 at 4:36pm · Like
Otter Ok. Yes it seems you are right. I cant say for sure there is no control, only that there is no self behind the control. It is like gravity or time. It just moves. I don't need to move it. Even on a small scale such as "my life". I have improved so much over the last half of my life. little by little just by relaxing and learning. And also there is the feeling of the I that wants it to be better. That is also seeming to just happen. Like a river. It flows the experiences I feel like "I am experiencing" are also just part of the flow of life "life-ing". There are still unconscious tendencies to feel I am at the controller sometimes. That also just happens. I will take your advice and look at what are my deepest precious beliefs, identify and release. Life is so good. It just is and that is so perfect. It has been such a relief lately! There is a deep love and honor for what is. Whatever untangling there seems to be done still is seen with much more of a relaxed loving eye. I find the experience is just being experienced and it is a huuuuge relief. There is a deep letting go...
October 18 at 7:51pm · Like
Rohit when there is no otter, what remains?
October 20 at 8:35am · Like
Otter emptiness. being. looking without finding or needing to find.
October 20 at 10:43am via mobile · Edited · Like
Rohit The word "emptiness" is so often misunderstood because when there is a thought of it as a concept, one says "what do you mean by empty?" Everything is there: there are the people, and there are their insides, guts and their bones and blood and everything is full of stuff- and the mind is not empty either. It's got ideas, thoughts and feelings. And even when it doesn't have those, what do you mean by emptiness? The only thing that is empty is the emptiness of an ENTITY.
And that is what is called anatta, non-self. Empty of an entity. There is nobody there. It is all imagination/thought.
October 20 at 4:25pm · Like
Otter i was just thinkinking about how emptiness isnt empty. it is actually the potential for everything. it is what we mean by saying peace of love or wholeness. The words break it up into ideas that are not really correct. It just is. Complete. Before concepts. Remembering this is what inspired me to check to see if you had written. Funny coincidence. :) yes. emptiness is a word i used but i know its not a void.. even modern science recognizes nothingness is full. not really empty at all.
October 20 at 11:45pm via mobile · Edited · Like
Rohit Is there any change in perception from when this thread started? If so, how so? What's your initial post look like from here?
October 21 at 2:53pm · Like
Otter well i guess it depends when you ask. there arent always the changes in perception. only when i check. many times i am still in my daydream of "my life" still. the biggest change to me from the beginning of this talk is that the feeling of a solid self is seen to be just a feeling. not indicitave of any truth. the noticing of no self anywhere is pretty vague to me still. when i look it is just what it is with no meaning behind it. its a big difference for me. there is definitely unconscious resistance. i read recently not to resist the resistance & that the resistance is your helper if you dont resist it. ...i am noticing a tendency to avoid any anatta-ness.
October 22 at 9:53am via mobile · Like
Otter many times when feeling stressed or annoyed or angry about anything i am asking "who are you being right now?" or "what self are you trying be right now that would get upset by this?". its just a natural reaction now. The illusion never stands up to close scrutiny. Its like an illusion that only works when viewed from a certain angle. When looked at from the side, I can see there's really no self there... it hasnt really improved anything about my life, but i see it never was meant to. nothing can ever really be not ok anymore though.
October 22 at 10:00am via mobile · Edited · Like
Rohit <<i am asking "who are you being right now?" or "what self are you trying be right now that would get upset by this?".>>
The answer will not magically come if you ask the question.The absence of a self is recognizable in real life.
It's not some kind of weird "seeing" that you've never done before. You're seeing your computer right now.
If someone asked you if there was an Alien dancing on your keyboard, you'd look to "see" the computer, and notice that there isn't one there.
This is the EXACT SAME THING.
October 22 at 5:10pm · Like
Otter ok. yeah. i see what you mean. I was saying things like "looking at it from the side". That's an incorrect way to say it. You caught me conceptualizing it. :). i was also saying that asking those questions helps me remember to notice what I actually see. its nothing weird or new. just questioning brings me back to noticing reality.
October 23 at 4:18am via mobile · Edited · Like
Otter as i go through life many times a feeling of self interest seems pretty real and solid even if i know its not. asking who am i trying to be helps me remember self is just a feeling with nobody behind it. just happening. In the same way, the questioning seems to arise on its own too. I'm not making it a practice. I'm not attached to this method.
October 23 at 4:04am via mobile · Edited · Like
Rohit regardless of anything that happens, is felt, experienced, thought... Is it clear there is no self anywhere, ever... That there will never be?
October 23 at 4:51pm · Like
October 24 at 11:30am via mobile · Unlike · 2
Rohit D So Otter, we've come a long way since we
started this thread, how far is left to go would
you say? Is there anything missing?
October 24 at 5:35pm via mobile · Like
Otter i dont know. i havent had enough experience to know if this is it or if theres something missing. there really is no self. that is clear. there is a psychology and body that clings to illusion of self still. but it seems less and less. the actual realization of no self is here. there is complete freedom even when i forget it, it is still there. i dont know. ....that is the best answer right now.
October 25 at 12:29am via mobile · Like
Otter you at lu can see from outside perspective a 'finish line' but from this perspective there was no feeling of reaching a goal. i dont know if there is still work or if this is it.
October 25 at 12:33am via mobile · Edited · Like
Rohit You're going to have to take this a step further, and see if your understanding of the concept corresponds with the reality outside of that concept. Logically proving that there's no monster in a closet is worlds apart from opening the door and seeing that the closet is empty.
October 25 at 4:47pm · Like
Otter yeah. i felt that may be the case. its clear there is no self. i experience that truth thousands of times a day now. maybe the reality hasnt completely hit me yet. in a gutteral sense. there is still something that acts like it believes there is a self. but less and less. seems that way anyway. too soon to know for sure. i am ready to take steps further. what next?
October 25 at 8:24pm via mobile · Like
Rohit I'm going to give you a quick exercise. For EVERY thought/feeling that arises, break it down into components. If there is an "I" involved anywhere in the thought (even if it thinks it's the "owner" of the thought), then do the following:
Look at an object in the room. Such as your keyboard. Don't think too much of it, it's just a anchor to reality. Take the component, such as "I", and compare it to your anchor. Does it exist in the EXACT same way?
Do this for EVERY thought that passes by. Do you feel doubt that it's working? Compare THAT thought. And then THAT thought. And that one and that one. EVERY THOUGHT that passes by. Compare it to your anchor.
The thought exists. It is being experienced. Does the subject of the thought exist?
Once you do that for a while, expand beyond thoughts. Look at your experiences.
Everything in your life, everyone you know, everything you have experienced. Use this exercise on EVERYTHING.
Is there any consistency, with all of it?
Take a look at the cause of "self" where is it?
October 26 at 11:50am · Like
Otter yes. this is exactly what i have done recently. like checking the computer and seeing if theres a dancing alien on it. :) it is helping. i feel a loosening inside. There are more and more moments in life where I am aware of whether I am acting like I am believing in a self or not. i'll use the newer details in this most recent exercise too now. thanks. ...breaking it down into components and comparing to an anchor. expanding beyond thought. does the subject exist beyond thought... ok I'll let you know what i find soon. ()
October 26 at 1:02pm via mobile · Edited · Like
Otter and i have still never answered that question "how the illusion of self begins". i was thinking that a lot recently. that understanding the beginning of it would help me see when it starts in a situation. i will have to find that answer still.
October 26 at 12:59pm via mobile · Unlike · 1
Rohit Let me know what you find?
October 27 at 12:21pm · Like
Otter this last exercise is still a little vast for me. i'll have to make more of an effort to try this before i can give any honest answer. I will let u know soon if I find answers or if nothing is coming to me. I'll see if I can answer tomorrow night.
October 27 at 1:46pm via mobile · Edited · Unlike · 1
Otter i dont have his sorted out completely but i feel i am hovering around the answer. maybe writing this will help me clarify... the closest i have seemed to come yet to origin of self illusion is... defensive reaction to trauma of seeming seperate. ... the reaction of a being to its first experiences of seperation. a though must form that "that is not me. but this is." and then believing the thought has truth to it. Identifying that thought and feeling of "that is not this" with the consciousness of "i am". must happen very early. before my conscious memories as a baby or small child.
I remember being about 7 or 8 years old and wondering how i could possibly be a seperate being from my sister. Where did that illusion start and why does everyone else seem to believe it? And how could everything still exist when i turn around and dont see it anymore. maybe seeing others i look up to (adults, older children) acting like they believe they are seperate.
... i feel i am on the right track but just not quite getting it... looking more. Please let me know if I am on completely wrong track! Haha.
October 28 at 2:32am via mobile · Edited · Like
Rohit You are on a right Track. What do you think you are? See that
October 28 at 1:55pm · Like
Otter i am not ignoring you. i really am taking time with this and really looking.
October 30 at 12:12pm via mobile · Like
Rohit What more is the I thought more than an empty sentence in the brain saying "Hey it's me. This is me!"
It's empty. Just another thought. Thoughts cannot do things, they cannot stick, they cannot want anything.
October 31 at 4:16pm · Like
Otter yes. i see it. and i see it over and over. it seems like it needs to be seen every time it arises. i have been practicing what i heard from a ramana maharshi teaching recently which is basically the same as the exercise you gave me. in every thought isolating the I thought or feeling and really looking at it and questioning it. getting it alone and doing battle one on one. that is the metaphor that seems accurate. really trying to isolate and hold on to the thought or feeling of I then questioning it and watching it. of course, every time it is seen as just a thought or feeling with nothing behind it.
November 1 at 12:27am via mobile · Like
Otter just seeing that isnt enough. it needs to be seen every time. its like breaking a habbit. it seems like when you resist the desire to smoke one time (because you know it is nothing but bad for you with no benefit) it is good but the desire will keep coming and trying to trick you until you resist long enough and it stops trying. another metaphor but you see what i mean. i see there is no I or Self right now. and every time i look. and that seems to knock it back and wait until a better time when i am less likely to see it. so it seems like a process like quitting smoking. maybe eventually the desire for smoking an "I" cigarette gives up. but for now it is just needing to be seen and questioned every time it comes into awareness.
November 1 at 12:37am via mobile · Like · 1
Rohit what is getting identified with the process of seeing?
November 1 at 9:25am via mobile · Like
Otter the true being that just is. the real self that is not a thought of "myself". the whole being says "i am". or maybe just "am". not a person or center. More like a field of presence. its not the right thing to say on lu (talking about the true self, if we are saying there is no self) but that is what is found. unidentifiable boundless being. not identifying its self with any thought including "I". Self is just a word. I am here right now. I mean there is consciousness being here but nothing that is conscious. I am sure I cant write it without ruining the truth of it. And I-thought still comes and hijacks the experience if allowed when habitual thinking starts. Just continuing seeing that consciousness is being but I am not being it. There is just awareness and being.
November 1 at 3:09pm via mobile · Edited · Unlike · 1
John Hey Otter, this is John. Nice to meet you. I've been following your thread with great interest.
Otter, may I ask, what is the experience in the body since this shift to "unidentifiable boundless being"?
Is the feeling different, subtly different, no change?
What's the orientation to/with life now? Where does Otter fit now?
November 1 at 11:25pm · Edited · Like
Otter hi. almost no change in body experiene. maybe looser? its still pretty new. hard to say. last night and this morning were actually big shifts for me. i answered rohit's question differently at first then sat with the question longer and just felt the change. had to erase it and replace it with that last answer.
November 2 at 12:14am via mobile · Like · 1
Otter i have been listening to youtube videos on self inquiry by someone named ramaji explaining how the feeling of self is hijacked by the thought of I especially right after waking up in the morning. i think I've heard that a million times before but this time i really felt that. there is still I thoughts that may come take over if i allow by getting distrqcted or falling into habitual thought patterns of thinking of future or past but right now it is just being in this space of being without believing a thought about it. i think u know what i mean. yeah the body does seem subtley different. not sure really. more relaxed but... i dont know. ive experienced many big liberating moments before and the mind was able to grab on and use it. this feels different. less dramatic and more profound. we will see. :) i dont know where otter fits in now. i dont think i could give a useful answer on that yet.
November 2 at 12:25am via mobile · Like · 1
John Not-knowing is good. :)
November 2 at 12:30am · Like · 1
Otter thanks for all the interest and for staying with me. this has often been a confusing trip. almost like a blind person suddenly being able to see and having to work out what colors and shapes are. i dont know. ...its so simple in the end. i always knew it would be because I've read and believed that. but knowing that didnt help. anyway thanks. I've been a real tough egg to crack. too damn clever for my own good. pretty cute in a way but a troubling way to be. haha. i sense more unfolding to continue but more as a result of "finding myself" than seeking anything.
November 2 at 12:38am via mobile · Edited · Like · 1
Neil Hey Otter, I'm just going to step in for a few questions:
>>>And I-thought still comes and hijacks the experience if allowed when habitual thinking starts. Just continuing seeing that consciousness is being but I am not being it. There is just awareness and being.>>>>
How do thoughts "hijack" experience? Is there anything or anyone that thoughts affect? Do thoughts matter?
Who or what allows or not-allows habitual thinking?
Is anyone doing the seeing?
Close eyes... watch thoughts come and go... can you think and choose a thought?
In all that is happening, no matter what it is, no matter when, is it ever happening TO anyone or anything?
please refer directly to experience, and let your words speak from that direct investigation.
November 3 at 4:18am · Edited · Like
Otter welcome to the talk :) yeah. the hijack thing was probably an inaccurate metaphor. even though it can feel like that. i mean more like falling back into a habitual trance. i cant find a 'who or what' allows it. i wouldnt say any-one is doing seeing. there is being and seeing just no central point from where it happens. definitely doesnt seem to be a choice in what to think. just thoughts and other stimuli evoking thoughts. it seems nothing happens to anything in objective sense. there is just motion.
November 3 at 11:17am via mobile · Like · 1
Otter there are just more and more times where spacious feeling of being present is noticed. there are also more and more times where acting like i believe in an individual self is noticed. But the increased awareness of it is a start.
November 3 at 11:23am via mobile · Edited · Like · 1
Neil yeah, and that is fine. seeing is happening, and beliefs are being seen through. the most important thing is simply noticing that all of it happens TO noone or no-thing. that it is all just happening, effortlessly.
November 3 at 11:29am · Edited · Like
Otter yeah. that is the basic description of what is happening recently. noticing it more often lately. there is being and feeling of a self or "AM". but nothing behind it. I am not becoming 'No Self' or 'Limitless Sense Of Being' as a new identity. its just there. theres not a feeling of some'one' its happening to.
November 3 at 11:36am via mobile · Like · 1
Neil Yes. That sense of aliveness is not personal and doesn't require identification. It just is.
I will let Rohit continue with you Otter. Pleasure. <3
November 3 at 11:42am · Like
Otter ok. i was hoping i didnt scare rohit away. haha. Thanks for the questions.
November 3 at 11:44am via mobile · Edited · Like · 1
Neil nope, you can't scare Rohit away :) yw.
November 3 at 11:47am · Like
Otter it seems like I or me THOUGHT is a pulling inward constrictive motion and feeling of being alive or aware presence is an expanding blooming motion. I almost answered the previous question about how feelngs in the body have changed by saying that it feels like expanding past the skin. seemed too metaphysical so i didnt. but that seems to be the feeling. also noticing a cool feeling like a relaxing breeze sometimes. i heard a guru say "i am the body. but am not only the body". then there is that famous quote "when i look inside and see i am nothing, that is wisdom. when i look outside and see i am everything, that is love. and between the two my life turns." That seems true. the outward motion feeling of being does feel like what we would call love and peace and happiness. just another story maybe.
November 3 at 12:03pm via mobile · Like
Otter the experience is hard for me to explain. luckily i dont have to. it just is. :)
November 3 at 12:05pm via mobile · Like
Rohit You are doing good Otter.Just to make sure. LOOK, You see what has happened here. Each sentence is "it seems, therefore xyz ..." You're stuck in that. You're stuck there in you're imagination worrying about an imaginary scenario with imaginary versions of your self.
Here's what I'm seeing. You're trying to see freedom. You're trying to see what you're trying to realize. Don't do this.
See your keyboard in front of you? Notice how you don't stress to see it? In fact, you couldn't stop seeing it, if you tried. I mean, you could close your eyes, but you cannot willfully see something else. What you seem to be doing is looking, but trying to control what you see. Don't do that. Just look. Passively. If you're not looking in the same passive way as you look at your keyboard, you're not looking at all.
There is no self. The “I” is made up — have you noticed? Have you looked inside and ever literally found this “I,” this self you have been referring to your whole life? Would you like to take the time to see? It can end the seeing story of this “I,” which will keep you on an endless search for a happiness that is already there — “I need,” “I want,” “I can’t,” “I am not enough” and so on and so on. It could liberate you from the painful story of “I” and all the thoughts that attach to it to protect it and keep it safe. Yet it does not exist.
November 3 at 3:10pm · Like
Otter thank you. yes i see what you are saying is true. i am compassionate enough to myself to see the realisation is not comple. when reading back what i wrote, yes i see there are times where it seems i believe there is a self trying to do it. i have the experience a lot of nobody trying to controll imaginary scenarios lately. but especially when trying to accurately explain, yes i see i get stuck in trying to see.
November 3 at 11:23pm via mobile · Like
Otter i experience freedom from imagination of seperate self without trying too though. that is the best. sometimes lately i even still look and feel the sperate imaginary identity and am relaxed and enjoying it. what is doing the seeing? just being and seeing. so it feels right when i'm not trying to get to the imaginary goal. that lets me know i've found the home base. i dont say this in defense. you can only respond to what i have written, and you are right.
November 3 at 11:33pm via mobile · Like
Otter passively looking is becoming normal for me. but not 100% of the time. not trying. just looking at what is. the being and feeling of existence i mean when i say 'me' is liberated! without any input from me. there is some fine tuning for how i relate to it, so i am glad to have lu to show me when i am getting stuck. but this liberation we talk about has taken place and it is such a relief. I have always been this liberation. I just didnt see that. when i stop typing i will stop having to think about using the right words to describe it and it can just be. hahaha. I can never type exactly the experience. And in trying to help make sure, you are extra critical (in a good way) of what I say. But even though the direct un-typed expejrience is most often exactly what you redirect me to in your critique of what I type, it is of great value since this is something new and fragile. It gives me great guidance. Even if I am not trying to control the experience now, it helps me see when I might be. And helps stir the remembrance that there is nobody to try or not try.
November 4 at 12:03am via mobile · Edited · Unlike · 1
Otter i understand there is something incomplete about the process. "trying to see what i'm trying to realize" seems a hard habbit to break. And some of the questions about changes in perception or changes in the body lead me to thinking there is a shift that hasnt completely happened. i wil let you know if it does. I'm just staying with this as honestly as i can.if it is going to happen, it will happen.
November 4 at 10:00pm via mobile · Edited · Like · 1
Rohit Well there are thoughts that you are you, but is that true? look for yourself, see if you can find an actual "you" anywhere in reality.
I = thoughts, "I" doesn't exist, there is no you, thoughts exist, thoughts of an "I" exist, but there is no actual "I" that exists in reality.
And yes look at it directly, look at reality directly, is there such a thing as a self in reality?
Say I was thinking about Superman. Does that mean Superman exists? Nope. But, the thought about Superman exists. Moreover, Superman relates to a man wearing a suit. It is tangible, even if it doesn't exist. It's something you can visualize. You cannot say the same thing about "I". It's just this concept that has absolutely no basis in reality.
November 5 at 4:54pm · Like
Otter yeah. i agree with that. allowing it to be realized. its difficult not to try to realize that. the mind sees that and likes it and wants to jump to it. just enjoying the illusion as much as i can for now since it cant possibly last forever. there is no I. so simple yet...
November 6 at 5:13am via mobile · Like
Otter i got it. "my life" and behavior and thoughts and events and all content are the writing on the paper and anatta is the paper. nothing that can be written will change the paper. i could write a horror novel or a musical play and the paper remains. and nothing can be written without the paper. i dont need to write a non self story to realize liberation. i cant realize liberation from words or letters or sentences by looking deeper into what is written. i only need to see the paper. i started visiting a meditation group last night and a lady said be vigilant and try to find thoughts and none will arise. it is the same with "I" since it is a thought. it isnt anywhere. there is a force of self or being but that is the background. not influenced at all by the content.
November 7 at 1:29am via mobile · Edited · Like
Rohit Exactly, Can you see how it(illusion of i) works?
November 7 at 3:30pm · Like
Rohit any doubts?
November 7 at 3:42pm · Like
Otter "I" seems to come about in trying to relate that undeniable essence of formless being with the form in which that being is expressed. i am the paper and that is undeniable. and there is writing. there is no way to not experience what is written. it is only content yet it is very much experienced as real. and the feeling of self is also ever present. so the 2 overlap and are understandably seen as the same thing. this is my spontaneous answer. it comes from a very true place that has just arisen yet in trying to type it i lost some of the essence. i'm onto it. just not quite right yet.
November 7 at 3:52pm via mobile · Like
Otter absolutely no doubt.
November 7 at 3:55pm via mobile · Like
Otter i actually have to come out of that realization just to be able to talk about it. this may be a passing phase but for now i can't seem to be it and explain it at the same time.
November 7 at 3:58pm via mobile · Like
Rohit Great :) It's that you recognise it as false, and thus can no longer be trapped trying to affirm it. Those cycles of having to prove yourself to be this or that? Those end. You can still do this, or prove that, or play these roles, and you will; but they won't trap you and you'll no longer be identified with them. Alright?
You just recognise that it's false. That's the pattern that you see. That's the shift that you make.
That's how it stops trapping you. That's how you end the cycle of suffering. will get back to you soon :)
November 7 at 4:00pm · Like
Otter ok. yes and what is false turns out to encompass so much. no wonder it is hard to see at first. but yes. from now on i cant really believe anything i am presented with. it is all just writing. text. blah blah blah. maybe beautiful or enticing but not any more real than any other writing on a page. yet the writing is there. very clearly. its fantastic not to try to get away from what is there. seeing unbound being is the paper doesnt mean the page should be blank. "i am that- Which i am". new things can be written and the current story isnt wrong anyway.
November 7 at 4:13pm via mobile · Unlike · 1
Otter i find myself inviting and enjoying all. including indulgence in illusion. god playing through formless and expression of form. "i am stuck in believing in a seperate self.".... "well isnt that cute and admirable. enjoy it."
November 7 at 4:25pm via mobile · Unlike · 1
Rohit When you attempt to move your arm, are you signaling your brain to move the arm or is just moving? When you attempt to type, how does the brain subconsciously know where all the keys are? Without even thinking something is being done.
LOOK FOR THE SELF, DOES IT REALLY EXIST?
KEEP CHALLENGING THE "I"
ARE YOU EXPERIENCING ANYTHING?
OR IS EXPERIENCE JUST OCCURRING?
November 11 at 12:24pm · Like
Otter there really isnt anyone experiencing it. other than imaginary.
November 11 at 11:30pm · Edited · Like
Otter its fantastic. even the pain always has a smile behind it. because there's nobody the pain is happening to. there is the liberation . seeing that seperate self is imaginary frees me up to fully be otter. i can get embarassed or vulnerable and really express the otter-ness. there are lots of situations i find myself in presently but none of it describes who i am. that frees me to just be. maybe it's not complete right now or whatever but i'm definitely over the edge. rolling downhill haha. there's no more worrying about "getting it".
November 11 at 11:39pm · Edited · Like
Rohit Do you see 'no-self'?
Or do you see that there isn't a self?
Subtle but VERY important difference.
November 12 at 9:34pm · Like
Otter i see that there isnt a self. 'no self' is just another imagination.
Tuesday at 2:54am via mobile · Edited · Like
Otter looking for a self right now. ...searching... NOTHING THERE. No center. Not because any special work was done to remove it, it was just never there. There is always being/experience/aliveness that we could call the true self. But we realize the difference. Self is just a word. It depends on the meaning one attaches to it. Seperate "I" self is a thought with no anchor in reality. True self is always here. Its not "me". Only is. Alive and aware. Observing without effort or conclusions. I cant try to be it. That's silly haha.
Tuesday at 3:02am via mobile · Edited · Like
What is self?
Where has it gone?
What is true?
Tuesday at 10:19am · Like
Otter seperate self is a trick of the mind. it went the same place any imagination goes when you stop imagining it. it wasnt true. :)
Tuesday at 12:46pm via mobile · Like
Otter i hope i understood what you meant. dont know what is meant by before/after. i always look forward to your replies. i check a few times a day. i'll have to stay un-confirmed for as long as possible so i can keep looking forward to your replies. hahaha. just kidding. talk to you soon.
Tuesday at 1:16pm via mobile · Unlike · 1
Rohit 1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way,
shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of
separate self is, when it starts and how it
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in
4) How would you describe it to somebody
who has never heard about this illusion but is
curious about it
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over,
made you look? was there a specific moment
when seeing happened or was it gradual?
what exactly happened?
6) When you say "I", what are you referring
7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is
there only experience?
Actually look. Does experience belong to the
body, or does the body belong to experience?
8 ) What did you experience at the moment
9) Describe your experience in the hours and
days following awakening
Wednesday at 1:52pm via mobile · Like · 1
Otter 1) there never ever was a me. other than imaginary.
2) illusion of seperate self is a mental trick designed to try to identify the underlying being/presence with the content of what is experienced. it starts at a very young age. we get trained "i, me, mine" and learn to believe we are controlling our little piece of life.
3) at first it feels dangerous to see this. i had time to slowly get accustomed over many years so there was no huge frightening moment of seeing this. Seeing this gives me a feeling of joyous relief. Then I am not experiencing that, all life surrounding experiences it. Including but not limited to this body and personality.
4) the best description that comes to mind is waking up from the dream of "my LIFE" and then waking up back into life. Being a seemingly seperate being. But not believing it.
5) the last bit was sitting early in the morning and really looking at these questions and "who is asking" and there was a releasing of trying to control. It was seen that this guy is working on these questions and that's fine. But not caring about it. The consciousness that exists before during and after anything just watching and loving and not caring. Kind of like waking from a trance. It has also been gradual. That experience didn't last more than a few hours. But the same truth is seen again and again. More often and for longer times. I cant get tricked for more than a couple minutes or seconds anymore. It is just such a flimsy illusion.
6) when I say I, such as talking to you here, it just means this guy. Haha. Just a point of reference to explain "otter, not rohit or Arnold swarzennegar
Yesterday at 1:33am via mobile · Edited · Like · 1
Otter i also have language from certain teachings of I which is a word pointing to the alive being that is present. but this is not an identity at the center of anything. its just a flow of being not seperate from anything but including experience of seperation.
7) there isn't any central identity there to experience anything. Other than habitual imaginary thoughts thinking "I hear this, I am typing this, my head hurts, I see this" thoughts. Really there is just sound or feeling or any experience just happening. They are all waves on the same sea.
8) this is a tough question since it seems so gradual in my case. There have been many awakenings in this life that were epic and shattering but had no lasting effect. Not that they weren't helpful. Just like eating a good meal is helpful but you get hungry again. The difference with the recent "awakening" is i cant really get tricked again. Experience of tightness and the mind trying to claim what happens come up and it leads to a negative emotion that triggers the questioning which comes back to seeing there is no self. I do not awake. The world around, including the body, wakes up to no seperation. It is a huge cause for relief from a pain that was never there. And freedom to be, including the seemingly seperate otter individual. The moment "I awake" is the moment it is seen that I am not the author of what is being written.
Yesterday at 1:33am via mobile · Edited · Like
Rohit ay at 8:21am · Like
Otter no. not at all. impossible. there can never be seperation. sorry battery died while i was answering 9). but i think i answered it while answering other questions.
18 hours ago via mobile · Like
Otter oh? now i see our last few comments are erased? or my device is just acting strange? odd
18 hours ago via mobile · Like
This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
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