Liberation - Help me see through it

[seeker03]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is no real, inherent self - By this I understand what we believe that there is a separate "me" does not exists. It's just an imaginary creation created by our mind. But this knowledge in me seems so fragile, I don't remember this and "me" always kicks in automatically.

What are you looking for at LU?
At LU I am seeking a guide/guru help me see through the reality that there is no separate self and cement this knowledge once for all. I am not sure do I need to practice it to be rooted in the knowledge or this knowledge just ends the darkness of wrong beliefs, I would want to get guided though this.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expected to be guided through the reality. I expect to know my true nature. I don't know if it takes time to reach there what I am seeking for or the realisation happens just like that, but I just want to know what's happening behind the curtain and why are we so so ignorant about it. Why there is so much suffering in this world.
I just want to know what gurus say in India - "The Ultimate knowledge" that after knowing it you don't need to know anything else.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have little experience in seeking but never reached there. I was never able to comprehend the actual meaning non duality / no you etc.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

Let's not call me a "guru," but I can help.

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[seeker03]

Hi Stacy,
Thank you for accepting my request. Accept my apologies to get back after 3 days of you posting a reply. Initially I was checking my email everyday to see if I got my account created, but then I got little discouraged.

For me you are a guru. I am from India and here we have a culture to accept a person who teaches you knowledge as a 'guru', and you have accepted me to teach me the ultimate knowledge as we speak it here. Thank you so much.

Here is my honest attempt to answer your question:

How will life change?

This knowledge would give me a positive direction in my life. It will defiantly change my perspective of many things that I think right now takes me in control, I could distant myself of emotions and see the thinks clearly.

How will you change?

I don't know but i have heard that whoever have acquired this knowledge have ended their suffering. They get the inner and forever peace. They can feel the real happiness. I think that's what I will also achieve. We are all longing for happiness. We do many things to become happy but nothing gives us the peace and long lasting happiness.

What will be different?

The only difference I could see that I would have the knowledge to see things clearly. Many times right now I get flow in situations and it leads to fight between me and my thought. I believe this would be different who have this knowledge.

What is missing?

The day I started the spiritual path I always feels there is something missing. Every spiritual guru say to do this and do that. Worship the god, love all beings. They talk about hell and heaven. They say if you do bad things you will become an animal in your next birth. These all things scares me, but when I watch a dog, cow.. I do not see them they are suffering because they are animals but we humans are more suffering then those animals.. then I think why the spiritual guru scare us with all this. No one gives the true knowledge, they only talk about this in but not clearly.. and all I wanted is to know this knowledge, what is this knowledge is so valuable which ends all the suffering. What is this knowledge which inspired prince Siddhartha to leave his palace search for truth and became the Budda.. I want to know the reality and end this hopeless search I am not finding with any spiritual gurus.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

You can call me Micky, that's how all my near people call me. I am from IST time zome. UTC + 5:30

Thank you.

[Anastacia42]

Good morning, Micky (near Denver, Colorado)

Thank you for your answers. You may need to be aware of your expectations. All of what you say can happen, and we find that usually it comes & goes, especially at first.

Please watch these:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

This is just a beginning.


Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.


Loving,

[seeker03]

Hi Stacy,
Thank you for these videos. I understood the expectations that I am having will need practice to be in the knowledge as it will come and goes in the starting. Thanks for this heads up.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

Honestly, I am not able to comprehend. Are you saying there has been never a separate being inside which we are searching, it's all imaginary. But then why the spiritual book/gurus say there is a soul inside us which is the real "YOU". I am honestly confused.. I am also thinking how does knowing once once soul could bring blissfulness/peace.
If there is no self then who is controlling everything inside me. Who is telling me what to do and what not. Who this seeing, hearing, sleeping, waking up. Am I only a body ?

Please help me !

[Anastacia42]

Hi Micky

Are you saying there has been never a separate being inside which we are searching, it's all imaginary.

Correct.

who is controlling everything inside me. Who is telling me what to do and what not. Who this seeing, hearing, sleeping, waking up

That is a mystery with no answer.

You will see. Maybe download "Gateless Gatecrashers " from this site. Read that. It may provide some clarity.

This process will guide you step-by-step to seeing these things.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Loving

[seeker03]

Hi Stacy,
Thank you for the book recommendation. I downloaded it and read the story of Phillip.. I will continue to read it one/two conversations everyday. Right now I am not sure if I totally understand each and everything that is being discussed there, but I feel there is something that wants to revel itself but I am not sure what it is.. I do not have word for it.. there is feeling of lost in control when I concentrate and repeat the word - "There is no you".. and something inside me is scared of this losing the control.. I feel hollow from inside.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I do not need any further clarification, I understand you want me to answer on my present experience.. by directly looking and not by thinking or assuming what it could be. I totally get it, and I am ready to go deep into this.

Thank you 🙂

[Anastacia42]

Very good.

First, let's look at the fear a bit. Try these and report back here:

There is a Direct Looking process for fear.

https://youtu.be/jKX1llYtlKE?si=jHXuuyyVtp7c-1R2

And this one:

https://youtu.be/fSTT8nc8cvQ?si=Alcukpbi7SUlXpfi

Much love,

[seeker03]

Hi Stacy,
Thank you for your reply. I will watch the videos you have attached the link for and report to you in the evening.

Thank you.

[seeker03]

Hi Stacy,
Thank you for the Video link. It really helped in looking at fear. Yesterday I sat with the question what is fear.. why it's there.. and the answer that I got is fear is just a sensation and our thought is giving it a meaning of fear, it's there because of our habit and it's doing it's job of protecting us from unknown or known danger. Once we see it fear is just gone. I mean.. it comes back but I know it now that fear is there and it's a sensation no need to get attached to it, there is no real danger in this moment. Everything is fine and safe.

Let me know if I am missing something and seeing in the right direction.

Thank you and have a wonderful day !

[Anastacia42]

Yes, exactly.

Now try this:


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[seeker03]

Hi Stacy,
Here is what I observe:

bathing, simply = sensation
listening songs, simply = sound
watching TV, simply = image, sound
Eating food, simply = taste.
Thinking about the future, simply = thought
solving programming problems, simply = thought(Ideas to solve)
using mobile phone, simply = image, color, sound
talking to a friend, simply = sound, thought
traveling, simply = images, colors, sound
smelling clarified butter, simply = smell

Thank you and have wonderful day !

[Anastacia42]

Good. You've got the idea. On the left is made up stories & labels. On the right is the briefest word for Direct Experience.

Now try this:



Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Post this list.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

Post this list, too.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body? Describe this.

Relax, have fun. Looking forward to your replies.


Loving

[seeker03]

Hi Stacy,

Here is what I observer:

For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

body is neither relaxed not very tight, but it's little stressed I would say.

I am sitting on a chair
I am writing
I am feeling the air from the Fan on my body
I am looking at the computer screen
I am listening the sound Fan is making
----
sitting on a chair
writing
feeling the air thrown by fan
looking to computer screen
listening sound fan is making
breathing
typing
blinking
seeing

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

After just seeing the action as a observer body feeling little relaxed. I mean when the doer is gone the stress is dropped, body is feeling relaxed. Is this natural. Is it Psychology ?

Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

Both are true. My body is on a chair and body is doing the actions to get the things done. I can not separate the one with the other. I mean without subject, there won't be any actions.. right? but, yes I is a label which my mind is giving.. but then am I not there.. then what is here.. only body and experience.. I think I am going mad..

What is here without labels?

without labels here is just body and experience in this moment..

Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Experience is just happening.. label do not affect the experience I just describing who is having the experience.

Did you notice any differences in the body? Describe this.

body is in state of confusion, doubt and is little agitate with the question who is it having the experience if I is just feeling like a label created by mind.. The I is looking like a blurred view.. Body is here and my mind is labeling it as I.. I am losing the control again..

In this moment there is only body and it is having experiences but then who is doing all these things.. Only body ? am I not there, but why it's feeling not True though when looking I is only a label. I don't know if I am making sense here.. but I hope you get it.. The I is so so deeply rooted.

Om Shanti !
Thank you

[Anastacia42]

You're welcome. Just relax & follow along.

This will start to show you the answers to the questions.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,