The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding of this is both conceptual from books and also in the practical sense from looking at the experience. The self seems to be only a thought and is getting believed by more thought emotion and sensation etc.

What are you looking for at LU?
Getting help, feeling stuck at the moment, I don't really know what to do.
I feel I have glimpses of the truth where seeing is seeing,thoughts is thought and so on. But then there is doubts, and getting stuck in I thought and the character Anton is built again.
I know that the one that is getting stuck is just another thought, and also doubts is only something that appears in presence, but that doesn't change the fact.
My mantra on every thought, emotion etc is I quote " who is owning this ", and every time, only experience is shown to be true, no self.
I'm looking to get help to start living from a point of view with no point of view, no self, no one owning anything.
But other then that everything will probably be pretty much normal.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To be able to stabilize the truth that experience, presence or what to call it is the truth.
To see that me is not thought, emotions, sensations, taste, smell etc.
To see what's been real all the time and to stay there or how to say it, more so to realize that there is no-one to be found so no one can even get stuck with sticky appearances in presence.
I expect the guid to be relentless and if need be, tell me to shut up, tell me where my beliefs is, tell me when thought and emotion are entangled.
Just help me to see clearly.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Been on this quest for over 10 years, diffirent retreats and bhuddist center.
Stopped going the bhuddist center when my meditations experiences became to intense.
Been almost obsessed with this and have for periods meditating over 10 hour a day, those periods could last for over 3 months. Other times my normal routine is 2-4 hour doing different inquirys and other times just trying to relax and let attention go where it wanna go.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

Hello,

Thank you for your patience in waiting for a guide here at Liberation Unleashed. I am happy to be present with you in this inquiry if you are still interested?

-Becca

Hello Becca !

I would love to be guided by you, thank you for answering this quick.

-Anton

Wonderful Anton.

Firstly, thank you for the detailed responses to the opening questions. There is a lot here to play with.

Firstly, can you describe in more detail what was the experience here:

Stopped going the bhuddist center when my meditations experiences became to intense.

What was the intensity? Physical? Emotional? Psychological? Something else? What was being experienced and how does it differ (or does it differ) from the dedicated solo practice?

-Becca

Little background, I have had a pressure over my forehead before this experience at the retreat for years, but there I had a short experience of white light that came with sensation of falling, kind a like the same as my panic attack I had, that got me into meditating in the first place 10 years ago.
After the retreat i started having that sensation of falling in every other meditation, and that continued a few months.
Then a had a 7 days alone in in my cabin, and meditated 10 hour a day, at that point I saw first a yellow light right in front of me, then red that covers my hole sight, then blue lastly black.
And when black came I felt as if I was going to faint,
That was the start of me leaving the bhuddist center because every meditation I saw a white shining orb that I was chasing, red and blue light that I was trying to connect to each other, I was following the felt energi current in my body telling me to shake, jump up and down and different things.
I felt drips running down my face in to heart area, stomach and so on.
At this time I became absorbed in meditating and it was all I was doing, sleeping was hard because of a kind of electricity going through my body.
This continued for altleast 4 months, with sometimes sessions that was 10 hours with a short break then 10 hours again.
After a while it started to calm down this was maybe 6 months ago, now I see red and blue when meditating and when dark, the sensation of falling is almost constant, and pressure over forehead and crown of my head.
For a while it was like I had one fot in another world and one fot in this, it was pretty hard to be working in this one.
Now there is like I said glimpses of the truth, and other times frustration, and almost like a kind of stress to get it done, a sadness to.
And this striving is almost killing me making a ball of sensation in the stomach, this is all there is in my head and it's so hard to see it clearly.

Wrong of me when I said it started to calm down about 6 month ago, It was maybe more like 1,5 year ago.

Well, I have ‘good’ news and ‘bad’ news…
This is the gate. You now know precisely where it is.

You’re describing a full-on breakdown of the seeker identity while still trying to maintain it. That’s the friction. This dance between worlds is impossible… and all the energy, the momentum, is pulling ‘you’ here now. But underneath that pain, that desperation—there’s nothing left to do. Just see what is.

So, breathe.
Right now, stop.
Close your eyes.
Feel everything happening in the body—but strip every label. That pressure for example… Feel it. Don’t describe it. Drop in.
What’s actually there? Not “pressure.” Not “forehead.” Those are labels. Strip the labels. No “energy,” no “me.”
Just sensation.
Stay there.

If the body moves, that’s fine. Different color lights, electricity, pressure, all welcome to emerge. Just stay with the raw sensation, no interpretation.

From this space:
Can you find anyone in control of what’s happening?
Can you find the one who’s meditating?
Is there a separate self—anywhere, in any form—that owns this?


PS: The only way out is through... but if you need an escape hatch or simply to be held lovingly in whatever space emerges just come back to this thread and write what is present.

Thank you for everything, I will try to answer the question to the best I can.
Totally agree with seeking identify, been a seeker all my life, and this spiritual stuff was my hope to make it sort of slowing down.

Can you find anyone in control of what’s happening?

No there is just experience experiencing, sound being sound that is getting known instantly, seeing seen, sensations being sensations also instantly getting known.
Thought being Thought, some clouds experience and Anton gets lost in them.
Even refocus happens by itself when recognition is happening.
Everything happening by itself.

Can you find the one who’s meditating?

This question been here a long time, and this searching has come up empty handen, only experience with its content left.

Is there a separate self—anywhere, in any form—that owns this?

In experience there is no separate self when looking.
Thoughts gets reinforces by sensation to create a separate self and vice verse.
But when looking nothing is found.
Through own other thought, sensations to thought and so on, to make it seem to be someone owning, but in reality they only own themselves and talking to themself to.

But even if this is true and looking been done thousands of times and come up empty handen, even looking for the one looking nothing is helping.
The looking is also only happening by itself, nothing can know what is going to happen next, only thought trying to talk about it to make it look like that.

Thought that gets stuck is thought about this no self stuff, for example "How quiet it is" "It is no self".

The sensation that is felt in the stomach probably has it's labels first stomach, then thought like, I must get this done, this is frustration, this is stress bla bla.
So for that I'm trying to see it and be with the raw sensation and the only thing that come up is the sensation itself nothing else.

Sensation in the head is shifting, bending up and down. Trying the same with that just staying with what is, the raw sensation, nothing is found only the sensation.


Really thanks for help, don't want any escape hatch, I will do whatever it takes.

Some thought gets listened to and seems to influence future situation, that make kinda make it look like there is someone in control.

What you wrote is razor-sharp, Anton. No escape hatches.

And you’re right: looking has been done thousands of times. Empty-handed every time! And yet—thoughts still say this should help, this should end seeking, this should feel like something. That’s the final trick. The loop that says “no self” should mean something.

Totally agree with seeking identify, been a seeker all my life, and this spiritual stuff was my hope to make it sort of slowing down.

The energy of seeking will cease when the truth, which is already and always has been the case, is exposed and the illusion seen through. But… in order to do that any and all attachment to being the one who has and is seeking gets to go too. ;)

Right now, where is the self? Not as a thought. Not as a memory. In actual, raw experience?

There’s sensation. Movement. Breathing. Thought appearing and disappearing like vapor. And yet, some fragment of mind still expects awakening to look like control, stillness, insight, or a new way of being.

So, what is experiencing this sentence right now?
Not conceptually! Stop. Don’t think about it. Don’t analyze. Just look. Right now.

What exactly is happening?

Even refocus happens by itself when recognition is happening.

Yes. So who is trying to stay recognized? What is the one that thinks it should stay here? Can you find it?

There’s a phantom thought pattern saying “you should sustain this recognition.” But it’s just that—a loop of thought. It feels personal, but it’s just arising like every other cloud. It is the same as the mechanism you saw coming in to claim the quiet.

So, now, be with that sensation in the stomach. Fully explore its edges and boundaries, look underneath it, behind it, inside it. What is actually there? Is there anything in the sensation itself that connects the sensation itself with the thought ‘frustration’ or any other thought?

When you sit and feel raw sensation—without label, without narrative—does anything need to change?
In this moment, can you find any thing that needs fixing?

Some thought gets listened to and seems to influence future situation, that make kinda make it look like there is someone in control

Yes exactly. And how many thoughts arise that don’t influence future situations?!

Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears? In that case, can
you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?

Let this land.

-Becca

And yet—thoughts still say this should help, this should end seeking, this should feel like something. 

- Spot on, this is exactly what happening.

But… in order to do that any and all attachment to being the one who has and is seeking gets to go too. ;)

- So hard to not get entangled by those thoughts, because like you said other thoughts come up and tell me to listen to that one, because that one will end seeking.
But like you said, only need to drop being the one who has and is seeking, but it's easier said then done..

Right now, where is the self? Not as a thought. Not as a memory. In actual, raw experience?

-When looking for the self, the head just stops, don't even know anymore how to look to be honest.
Maybe it's a belief that the experience is the self, because what I found when looking is the experience, don't no really..
Only experience comes up, and thought come up, talking about how to write this to you, mainly describing experience.
Everything is like it is, how it's should be probably.

So, what is experiencing this sentence right now?
Not conceptually! Stop. Don’t think about it. Don’t analyze. Just look. Right now.

- The sentence is almost like rehearsed by thought, don't really know if the sentence is getting known before thoughts claim the ownership of reading them or getting known after.
So this is probably thinking about what you said but I want to keep it so you can see what comes up.

But it looks like everything is just getting known instantly when it comes up, the sentence almost reading itself by itself.
Somethings is more sticky then other but If all content is left aside, everything just is without a need for anyone to be separate from it.

Thoughts talk to each other saying how it can't be anyone separate bla bla bla....

Yes. So who is trying to stay recognized? What is the one that thinks it should stay here? Can you find it?

-Like every search no one is found, only a thought that is saying that recognition is nedded to stay focused after that only recognition itself, recognizing by itself exactly like the sentence.
It's like I'm only looking and seeing it happen.

There’s a phantom thought pattern saying “you should sustain this recognition

.”
-Yes thats true !

When you sit and feel raw sensation—without label, without narrative—does anything need to change?
In this moment, can you find any thing that needs fixing

- Nothing is needed to change, and nobody is there inside, behind or underneath it, it can't be because where is the edge, how big is it and so on, there is nothing else to compare it to, nothing outside it either because of the boundaryless nature of it.
It look like almost everything and nothing is inside it, don't really know if there is a difference to be honest.
Don't find a self in it, but don't not find it either.


It's like the truth is on the tip of the tongue, feeling of getting it and then not getting it.

Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears? In that case, can
you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?

-Thought only come and go, a feeling can be known that of intention, but even with that thoughts is known when it comes up, it is impossible to have any say in it before it comes up, and intention is only a label on a feeling, that to only comes up to make itself real with the coming thought..
It can be many thoughts about a subject, but when it's decided it's just a thought that says for example buy the blue car, no decider can be found.

Hello,

So hard to not get entangled by those thoughts, because like you said other thoughts come up and tell me to listen to that one, because that one will end seeking

:)
LOOKing at the mechanism of thought itself can end seeking. The content of any thought won’t.
Where do thoughts come from? Where do they go to?
Can thought experience thought? Can thought experience anything?

When looking for the self, the head just stops, don't even know anymore how to look to be honest.

Yep. Because there isn’t anything to be found. ‘How to’ is coming back around to thought to interpret what is already clear.

But it looks like everything is just getting known instantly when it comes up, the sentence almost reading itself by itself.

There it is. What else do you need?

If it’s reading itself…
If sensation just is…
If thought arises and is seen only as it appears…
What’s left to find?

It's like the truth is on the tip of the tongue, feeling of getting it and then not getting it.

There is nothing unfinished. There is only the thought “it’s almost done.” And that thought is also… done.

Here’s your next task:
Look for any thing that isn’t already happening by itself.
Be ruthless. Don’t settle for half-seeing.

Watch intention.
Watch attention.
Watch desire.
Watch the urge to “make it stay.”

Tell me exactly—not conceptually—how they happen.
Where do they come from? What pushes them?

Don’t answer like a philosopher. Tell me like a witness at the scene of a fire:
What. Happened. Now.
…And tell me what didn’t.

-Becca

Hello Becca !

Where do thoughts come from?

-From nowhere to nowhere, they only pop up.
Some thoughts clouds and become, until seen through then gets released.
Some is witnessed and less sticky, only pop up, seen and released.

Where do they go to?

-Like you said before about vapor, just dissappear.

Can thought experience thought?

-Aa thought can instigate another thought because of pattern, thought itself can not experience anything.

Watch intention.
Watch attention.
Watch desire.
Watch the urge to “make it stay.”

Tell me exactly—not conceptually—how they happen.
Where do they come from? What pushes them?

What. Happened. Now.
…And tell me what didn’t.

-Watching intention when "thinking" a thought.
The thought comes up from nowhere right away there no way to no what it is going to say, a sensation is there to, also from nowhere.

Even that someone is going to be thinking right then and there, is impossible to know beforehand.

It really can't be anyone behind it, because if it was I would have knew it, like if I wrote a word on a papper and gave it to myself.

It's the same with attention, it moves effortlessly from diffirent content and objects sometimes thoughts claim ownership and says for example "need to moves this back to experience" or like you said " stay here "

Attention also like everything else, comes from nowhere and dissappear to nowhere.

Nobody is pushing anything when looking.
In experience, it doesn't look like intention exists to be honest, nobody intending atleast.

Desire same as intention and attention only comes up from nowhere, nothing pushing it, holding it or owning it.

Trying to not answer like a philosopher, but it's hard cause there nothing really to write.
Every question looks like it's run by the same mechanism and have a similar answer.

Like when watching

Watch intention.
Watch attention.
Watch desire.

Everyone of them is under the illusion that the false self is running them, they themself is probably patterns from life situations.
When looking nothing is found of what caused it, and it really can't be anyone that did it.

A feeling is felt right now and a label confusion is put on it.
Feel like it's a standstill in my head, don't know if intention or attention even exist.

Trying my best..

Thanks Becca!

Hello Anton,

You’re seeing it: thoughts, attention, desire, intention—none of these are owned, none of these are caused, none of these are controlled. They arise. They move. They vanish. Always already happening.

Aa thought can instigate another thought because of pattern, thought itself can not experience anything

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organized pattern? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

The story of "me’ can also seem to have continuity. Is it really continuous? Or are there simply isolated thoughts that never can truly touch each other, some of them claiming that there's one continuous story?

Trying to not answer like a philosopher, but it's hard cause there nothing really to write.

Haha yes. It is the paradox of this apparent process all happening through the written word. Yet something shines through, so if all I read is blah blah blah tomorrow that is just fine too.

A feeling is felt right now and a label confusion is put on it.
Feel like it's a standstill in my head, don't know if intention or attention even exist.

Great! This is all to be expected, we are in fact turning ‘your’ world upside down here. There is nothing wrong, there is just no one here. And there never was…

Trying my best..

Who is trying?

Breathe.

-Becca

Hello Becca,

So grateful for our conversations and you helping out ! Hopefully we can sort this out. Kinda crazy that you do all this for me,
it means alot :,)

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organized pattern? 

- When looked upon more closely thoughts is random, not really connected to each other. But it looks like life situations influence thoughts and thoughts themself is trying to kinda protect this body.

Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

- Yes I now agree with that, many ways one can gets fooled, they don't really take content from other thoughts because they can't experience anything, but they can be about the same subject, but it's a new isolated thought, is that right ?

So a new thing has come up from time to time now, where thoughts come up and almost instantly it's recognized that presence was already empty, and it was empty all the time, presence was free from it all the time.
It's almost like seeing is seen from the point of view of presence, and from there see that it was free from that thought that seemingly when show up did cloud presence for a few seconds.

The story of "me’ can also seem to have continuity. Is it really continuous?

-No it's not !

Or are there simply isolated thoughts that never can truly touch each other, some of them claiming that there's one continuous story?

-In experience that's true.

Who is trying?

- The trying looks like it's happening by itself to, one thought can cloud, and then another comes in and take ownership over the trying part in experience, and says for example "who is trying? Or I need to relax" Attention then steer to another part of experience and nothing is found.
Nothing of this is know beforehand, it's like a ghost is behind the wheel.
It maybe a subtle belief that this witness of everything is the self, but even that can't be found when looking.
Is not the trying part a label that is put on attention ?

Breathing to the best I can, crazy it's so obvious but even so, it can't be seen, everything points to this and it's logical to.

- Anton