a request for guidance

[yeaabuoy]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Actions, experience and perception happen on their own but we imagine there to be a separate "self" who is responsible for everything that happens to "them." This illusory sense of a separate self causes suffering and can, ideally, be seen through with some careful consideration/attention. My understanding is more conceptual than experiential.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for someone to guide my consideration of the way things are, so that I have a more complete experiential understanding of the absence of self. I have brief, vague glimpses from time to time with great concentration but any understanding I have is fragile and easily dislodged. I am sure I have tendencies and fixations that obscure my understanding but have difficulty identifying these in the moment, on my own, and I think I could benefit from some assistance with this.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Just an honest exchange about what I am perceiving in my current experience. I am hopeful that a guide can point out any unfounded or spurious assumptions about my experience that I may be overlooking.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Limited. I have been to 2 meditation retreats, read a few books/articles on mindfulness, meditation, and nonduality, and watched a lot of youtube videos. I would say that I try to sit and meditate for 20 minutes a day in formal meditation (lately, just "noting" the dominant sense field in my current, moment-to-moment experience), and engaging in self-inquiry throughout the day whenever it occurs to me. The one piece I feel I have yet to fully explore is one on one guidance and the direct examination of my experience with someone more skilled than I am.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[yeaabuoy]

Hello! Thank you so much for your response and I would be very glad to have you as my guide.

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

I think my experience of life will become more spontaneous and focused on the present. I hope I will be less self-conscious, with less anxiety and thought loops. Hopefully also less worrying about the future, bitterness about the past, and second guessing every action. What is missing now is an appreciation for what’s here, gratitude for the things and experiences I have.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

You can call me Ray, and I am in the Central Timezone in the USA (Chicago time)

[Anastacia42]

Hi Ray,

That's good. Your expectations are pretty reasonable. There will be challenges, but find where you're lying to yourself & they resolve.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.


Loving,

[yeaabuoy]

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

The main thing that comes up is relief. There is some fear and anger in the background, which refer to the future and the past respectively, but primarily the feeling is relief. That things will unfold how they will without the need for “my” management.

[Anastacia42]

Very good.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Loving,

[yeaabuoy]

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I feel pretty clear about this

[Anastacia42]

Good, so...



Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[yeaabuoy]

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.



Loving,

I actually do this frequently throughout the day as a “noting” meditation. In my practice, I mentally note the dominant sense in my experience every 1-3 seconds.

Daily shower
Seeing the shower knob, simply= image/color
Turning on the water, simply = sensation (in fingers)
Taking shower, simply = sensation (body)
Smelling soap, simply = smell
Hearing the water echo in the shower, simply = sound
Thinking about what to do after getting out of shower, simply = thought
Observing water droplets and steam on shower walls, simply = seeing

In my noting meditation, the above shower would probably be like: “seeing, feeling, feeling, feeling, smelling, hearing, hearing, thinking, thinking, seeing, seeing”

Going into office
Walking down the hallway, simply = sensation (feet)
Hearing footsteps, simply = sound
Pressing button for elevator, simply = sensation (fingertip)
Watching elevator doors open, simply = image/color (in my mind I would note ‘seeing, seeing’)
Walking out into the hallway, simply = sensation (feet)
Seeing all other doors in my hallway are closed, simply = seeing (all other doors closed)
Thinking all other coworkers arent here yet, simply = thinking
Opening door to my office, simply = sensation (fingertips)
Seeing the inside of my office, simply = image/colors
Thinking my office is messy and I need to clean it, simply = thinking

My walk to office during a noting meditation would be like “feeling, hearing, hearing, feeling, seeing, feeling, seeing, thinking, feeling, seeing, thinking, etc..”

[Anastacia42]

Okay. We do ask you to make this your only practice for now. Are you able to pause your "noting meditation" for now? There is no need to post it here.

Please post what you've learned from this pointer.

Thank you,

[yeaabuoy]

Sure, no problem. I can pause my noting meditation for now, I just noticed that it was similar to the last exercise you suggested. It is not so much a structured/regular practice for me, it is moreso a strategy to return to presence when I notice I am becoming lost in thought.

As far as what I have learned, I suppose this exercise helps illustrate that direct experience consists of the 5 basic senses and thought. The senses that I tend to notice the most are sound and sensation

[Anastacia42]

Thank you. Here's the next step.


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

[yeaabuoy]

Mind Labeling Experience

For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

I am sitting in a chair
I am typing on a keyboard
I am taking a sip of my drink
I am tasting the sweetness of my drink
I am hearing the sounds of the parking lot outside my window
I am reading through my work materials
I am thinking about this labeling task and wondering if I am doing it right
I am reading through my e-mail.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.
(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

Still sitting in chair, typing on keyboard.
Hearing car alarm outside window
Hearing air running through air conditioning unit
Thinking about work responsibilities and scheduling
Typing on keyboard, trying to make sure this post format will be correct
Feeling nasal congestion
Feeling feet in shoes, thinking they are a bit tight

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

1. The second one feels more faithful to my experience. Adding an "I" to the statement seems to introduce some distance or an extra step to the labelling.
2. Without labels, there is only experience. Sensations, sights, sounds, before we even label them as such.
3. Labels only describe the experience. Though sometimes when I attempt to label or conceptualize an experience as it is happening, I think it can obscure my appreciation of the experience itself.
4. I didn't notice any differences in the body.

[Anastacia42]

All good.

Let's look for those differences in the body. They are there. Most people find this in their gut - yes, a gut feeling.

Try this:

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,

[yeaabuoy]

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

It has been a long time since I have told a lie. The lie I told myself for this exercise was your example "1+1=14." I tried

The sensation was a tightness in my abdomen, below/behind the belly button. I felt it as a contraction that lasted about 1-2 seconds and then stayed there as a sensation of tightness that would gradually release when I told the truth.

It was quite subtle and not consistently repeatable, often obscured by the rumblings of my gut before lunch time and my breathing.
I have my doubts as to whether this is a genuine physical response to lying, versus a result of suggestibility and desire to satisfy the exercise -- just to be completely honest!