Got stuck in tiger's mouth

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bysa
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Re: Got stuck in tiger's mouth

Postby bysa » Wed Sep 11, 2024 7:15 pm

I am going back and forth between Am I just a thought, is there something here? is the gap you're talking about or the constant hum I said is that awareness, being, presence or there is nothing here, this is just a thought talking and writing, just simple flow of life and what I consider as the impersonal presence is just a blend of thoughts and familiar sensations

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Re: Got stuck in tiger's mouth

Postby poppyseed » Thu Sep 12, 2024 12:34 pm

Hi Shafigh
I’ve tried to answer the questions as clearly as I could. However, for most of them, the words and language I’ve used don’t fully reflect my direct experience. My experience can’t truly be captured by words, and when I do use them, it’s because that’s our only way of communicating—though I know it’s not quite “it”. So, if some of my answers sound abstract or like common phrases, please forgive me, I did my best.
The fact that they sound abstract should be a warning sign for a fairy tale :). That is why your answers are so all over the place and contradicting each other

I can see we a circling back to Awareness and all the related spiritual storytelling.
Because of the content of that thought, the story, which includes the element of time. It’s like a movie with past events.
Since when is what thoughts say true? We’ve seen so many times that what thoughts talk about cannot be found in DE. That is why we are no longer looking for truths in them. They are the most a communication tool, an approximation of “reality”, but nothing more than fiction. A movie is not a movie without a watcher to make sense of it, to remember. So is there remembering or just thoughts ABOUT a past? Can you describe that watcher? You said you can’t. So what makes it different from a belief/abstraction that is difficult to shake off?
A movie only looks like a movie (an illusion) because of the frequency of thoughts arising. I think I gave you the analogy with Chat GPT, where the texts are basically a repeated prediction of the next token/word.

Do this for 1 min. and as often as possible:
1) Check what the thoughts are about.
2) Then notice what can be seen, heard, touched, smelled and tasted. No need to complicate it, ‘tree, car, chair, grass’ are good enough.
3) Are the thoughts in any way related to the life your body is experiencing right now? Is there such a thing as true opinion/statement?
What did you find?


The thought world is fictional, the sensory world represents the facts. Awakening can only be found in the realm of facts, in the sensory experience. Don’t look for it in the fictional world of thoughts.
What listens to the “narrator” and connects thoughts and sensations together?
Another thought.
Can a thought listen, speak, smell, taste, feel, or think? Or just is?
The one that listens, the one that is aware—the one prior to language, the impersonal sense of being. This is where language falls short when trying to describe or explain something that can’t be contained by words.
Just a familiar energy, a density in the chest, throat, and head.
Yes, there are two things.
It’s like the watcher overlays the thought, as if the thought is written or played (visually or audibly) in a loop. All thoughts and the watcher of the thoughts seem to be happening in the head, while emotions and the feeler of emotions occur below the neck (in the chest, gut, etc.).
The observer contains the thought, but they are not one.
What is “the one” that is aware? How is it known that is prior then experience (besides the Advaita Vedanta teachings :) )? Where is the proof for its existence? What is the difference between the direct experience of being aware and the experience of the idea of being aware?

Try not differentiating between what seems to be the input coming via the separate senses, and see what happens.
What is doing the noticing? What is noticing made of? How is it different from labelling the experience?

You said there are two things – thoughts and awareness but what you are providing as proof are unrelated sensations (“density in the chest, throat, and head”), that can be associated with other “things”. So where exactly is the proof for that Awareness entity? There is an assumption here that “Awareness” is something separate from the mind/thought.

Is awareness a container for experience (thoughts)? Some kind of lone witness?
Does it feel like “I am the awareness/consciousness in which everything arises” or “all experience arises in awareness”? You’ve heard these statements as a way of describing spiritual experience. In this inquiry, we are looking for proof. Are you truly awareness? Do experiences truly arise in awareness in a literal sense? If what the word seems to refer to cannot be found in your actual experience, the word is only an idea, a theoretical mental concept. Anything that cannot be seen, heard, touched, smelled or tasted is simply a thought, a mental concept. Be curious about the different disguises the self-illusion can take on and explore them in the same way.

If there is something “solid”/existing thing there you should be able to touch it (unique feel), smell it (unique smell), see it (unique colours) etc. Real is that which does not disappear when you stop believing in it. There are three types of labels. Let’s examine the difference between chair, country and Spiderman. “Chair” points to a “material thing” with specific characteristics (like apple), “country” is a label that is used for communication but cannot be found as a thing; “spiderman” is an imaginary character, a word that points to something that isn't real. So where does “awareness” fit?

Experiencing happens through the senses + thought. If there is any experience, one or more of those are present. If I close my eyes and feel borderless and like there's nothing, that happens through sensations. There is often a subtle mental image of nothing with very subtle sensations. So if there are no sensations and there is nothingness, that's often a subtle thought that is trying to create something (e.g. awareness). Similarly with “indescribable places”/ ”inside”. This feeling could also be called aliveness, presence, being, or I AM, but even that is a label, is it not? Presence and being are states/sensations, not things. Is there anything here that is not the senses?
The way I look at sensations is that they include anything that is sensed, such as touching a cup or a feeling of indescribable places.

It's good to remember that we can only experience see, hear, feel, taste, smell and thought. Anything not in the first five is thought. So when you say that senses aren't present (prior to the senses and thinking), I want to question it, because you may be reifying something that isn't there. Many have a feeling of I AM, presence, awareness, but even that has to be let go of at some point, as it is seen for what it is (a stepping stone, an abstraction). Without the label “awareness”/watcher/witness, do you notice that these are also sensations? Very subtle indeed, but there nonetheless.

Look Carefully!
Where does thought (known) end, and the knowing of it begin? Is there distance between the knowing of thought and the thought itself or are they one and the same? Can a thought ever appear without the knowing of it? Is there such a thing as unknown thoughts (or that is hypothetical)?
Are knowing and known two separate things or there is just knowingknown ie no dividing line?


All experience is always known. What isn’t known, isn’t an experience. That is basically the definition of experience. There is no such thing as unknown experience existing on its own like a potential as a separate thing. Similarly, there is no unexperiencable entities without the experience. Known and experience are inseparable – not two. And that is the problem with concepts. Sometimes they point to the same stuff with different concepts and that create the idea of “two”
Image

Is there anything else but inseparable seeing_hearing_smelling_tasting_feeling_thinking or just THIS/what IS? “Seeing” and the rest are also labels – DE labels – describing THIS. I like THIS as it is a word that just points without further elaboration. However, as long as their empty nature is seen through, labels are important in communication. DE labels help to describe reality without too much story and help to see all unchecked beliefs…

Here is a quote from the Bahiya sutra for your contemplation:

"Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya.
"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."


Here is also an interesting video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lm3G0_ ... 4&index=15
I’ve tried this over the past week. Couldn't find the gap, thoughts are coming and going but thinking is always happening, like a constant hum.
The more you do that the “easier” it becomes :)
I am going back and forth between Am I just a thought, is there something here? is the gap you're talking about or the constant hum I said is that awareness, being, presence or there is nothing here, this is just a thought talking and writing, just simple flow of life and what I consider as the impersonal presence is just a blend of thoughts and familiar sensations
Keep on looking!
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Re: Got stuck in tiger's mouth

Postby bysa » Fri Sep 13, 2024 7:44 pm

Hi Rali,

Before posting my answers to your questions, there are a few things on my mind after going through the questions that might help me get a better sense of direction.

Am I just a thought? We've said there’s nothing besides body sensations and thoughts. Body sensations don’t have a sense of being. So, this sense of "me/I," the one that’s talking to you, labeling, and using language to communicate, is just thoughts/thinking. If there’s a gap between thoughts, there can’t be any sense of "me." In other words, if there’s nothing besides body sensations and thoughts, then who or what notices the gap?

If "awareness" is not something separate from the mind/thought, and thoughts arise by themselves, then who are you talking to? Who are you addressing? There’s no "me" and "you," and this interaction, this communication, is just happening by itself? Let me ask you this: Do you not have this sense of "me"? Or is it more like this: Words are read, thoughts arise, responses are chosen, and fingers type them. And in none of these actions is there a sense of "me/I"? Or do you have the sense of "me" but see it as an illusion, just another thought? Here’s where I get stuck: the moment I typed "you" in this sentence—"but you just see it as an illusion"—I wondered, what does "you" mean here? Using "you" implies I’m addressing someone separate from what’s happening in your experience.
The fact that they sound abstract should be a warning sign for a fairy tale :). That is why your answers are so all over the place and contradicting each other.

I can see we are circling back to Awareness and all the related spiritual storytelling.
Yes, I also feel like I’m up in the air, not sure where this is going, and lacking a sense of direction. I’m just answering based on what feels true to me in that moment. But these questions stay with me throughout the day, and trying to answer them based on my experience helps me check my beliefs—seeing which ones hold, which ones are hard to shake, and even which ones I don’t yet recognize as beliefs.
So is there remembering or just thoughts ABOUT a past?
Just thoughts about a past.
So what makes it different from a belief/abstraction that is difficult to shake off?
Could be. I don't have a way to prove if it is or isn’t.
Do this for 1 min. and as often as possible:
Check what the thoughts are about.
Then notice what can be seen, heard, touched, smelled, and tasted. No need to complicate it—‘tree, car, chair, grass’ are good enough.
Are the thoughts in any way related to the life your body is experiencing right now? Is there such a thing as true opinion/statement? What did you find?
Some of them are related. For example, I see a tree, and a thought comes up that this tree looks like the one I saw yesterday. Or, I taste coffee and think, "This doesn’t taste good; I should’ve gone to a different café." Also, are you saying thoughts can’t cause sensations in the body? Like when a stressful thought or fear arises and my heart beats faster, or I start sweating?
The thought world is fictional; the sensory world represents the facts.
Isn't the arising of a thought also a fact? What’s the difference between the sensory world and thought? Thoughts are part of THIS too. If we're talking about the absolute, then even the sensory world doesn’t represent the facts.
Can a thought listen, speak, smell, taste, feel, or think? Or just is?
No, it can’t. But there can be a thought about understanding or listening.
What is “the one” that is aware? How is it known that it is prior to experience (besides the Advaita Vedanta teachings)?
I don’t have any reference to anything prior to experience. Either I don’t exist, like in deep sleep, or there is thought and experience.
What is the difference between the direct experience of being aware and the experience of the idea of being aware?
No difference—the latter is just an idea, a thought within the experience.
What is doing the noticing? What is noticing made of? How is it different from labeling the experience?
I can’t find anything "doing" the noticing. There is just noticing.
So where exactly is the proof for that Awareness entity?
I don’t have any proof of it. Maybe it’s just how we use language like we’re talking to something beyond thoughts, an observer.
Is awareness a container for experience (thoughts)? Some kind of lone witness?
That’s how I tend to see it, but I don’t have proof for it and can’t find it in direct experience (DE).
Does it feel like “I am the awareness/consciousness in which everything arises” or “all experience arises in awareness”?
It feels like all experience arises in awareness.
Are you truly awareness? Do experiences truly arise in awareness in a literal sense?
This feels very theoretical to me now. I don’t have any reference for answering this in direct experience.
So where does “awareness” fit?
It’s just a label used for communication but can’t be found as a "thing."
Presence and being are states/sensations, not things. Is there anything here that is not the senses?
What about thoughts/thinking?
The way I look at sensations is that they include anything that is sensed, such as touching a cup or a feeling of indescribable places.
A feeling of indescribable places seems closer to thought in my experience.
Without the label “awareness”/watcher/witness, do you notice that these are also sensations?
This is interesting! No, I don’t see them as sensations. Are you saying there’s a sensation and then the mind labels it as “awareness”/watcher/witness?
Where does thought (known) end and the knowing of it begin? Is there distance between the knowing of thought and the thought itself, or are they one and the same? Can a thought ever appear without the knowing of it? Is there such a thing as unknown thoughts (or is that hypothetical)? Are knowing and known two separate things, or is there just knowing-known (i.e., no dividing line)?
No, there’s no distance between the thought and the knowing of it. There are no unknown thoughts.
Is there anything else but inseparable seeing_hearing_smelling_tasting_feeling_thinking or just THIS/what IS?
No, just THIS.
In the cognized will be merely what is cognized.
This is where I get stuck. "In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed"—all true. But there’s still this thought/sense/feeling/belief, or maybe just the use of language, of being "me," separate from the rest of the world, thinking, questioning, and doubting. It’s something I can’t shake off.

Thank you,
Shafigh

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Re: Got stuck in tiger's mouth

Postby poppyseed » Sat Sep 14, 2024 1:02 pm

Hi Shafigh

Let me point out first, that there is no point telling you how it is in my experience – this is not about teaching you what to see but pointing where to see for yourself. Otherwise, it becomes a mental exercise :)
Am I just a thought? We've said there’s nothing besides body sensations and thoughts. Body sensations don’t have a sense of being. So, this sense of "me/I," the one that’s talking to you, labeling, and using language to communicate, is just thoughts/thinking. If there’s a gap between thoughts, there can’t be any sense of "me." In other words, if there’s nothing besides body sensations and thoughts, then who or what notices the gap?
What is doing the noticing? What is noticing made of? How is it different from labeling the experience?
I can’t find anything "doing" the noticing. There is just noticing
Do you see anything else besides the senses and thinking? Do you have anything else but the experienced with no experiencer? If you do, please provide a description.
You didn’t answer the second half of the quoted questions, so I will ask again…
How is noticing different from labelling the experience?? To notice means to narrow your "focus" on a specific “thing”. That means to cut off “something”/ a pattern from the inseparable THIS. Is this really possible? Can you cut the bird from the sky? Or you just create stories about this particular pattern in seeing? Can you cut off seeing from hearing really? Do you see where I’m pointing to? So is there any notice-r or noticing is just a thought ABOUT DE?
Isn't the arising of a thought also a fact? What’s the difference between the sensory world and thought? Thoughts are part of THIS too. If we're talking about the absolute, then even the sensory world doesn’t represent the facts.
The arising of thought is a sensory experience (DE). However, its content (what the thought is ABOUT) is not. Do you see the difference? Otherwise, you would get wet just by thinking about a waterfall :)
Yes, the DE labels are still labels but the very basic ones with very limited story. Like if use the example with "post it" notes - these are the ones that refer directly to the experience, the most basic concepts with almost no story. So in a way, thoughts are "learning" to stick to the experience and not go to other thoughts. "LOOK!" is another useful thought that makes that happen - a new pattern :)

Is there such a thing as absolute and relative on any level of experience? Or there is just LIFE/THIS? Where is the line that separates relative from absolute reality? How do you go from one to the other? If there is no such line/border, what makes the “relative” different from an abstraction? Remember the “world” is a product of concepts, not real stuff! These “terms” are used as stepping stones in pointing but they have to be properly checked at some point. You keep talking about “the story” like it is a real (not illusionary) thing. Is this story the same for me? How do you even know that we are talking about the same experience when I say “apple”? Is there anything that thoughts say that is true? Anything? What is that? Concepts could be sticky but we’ve already explored their emptiness.
Here is fun exercise to further inquire into thought content
The following link is a 7 minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw

1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice. It seems to feel as though they can influence, somehow, what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome. The commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.

What did you find when doing this exercise? Is the commentary on the soccer game a necessity for the play to happen?
And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?

Here is another video for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJyUtbn ... 4&index=34
Provided that you are not a biologist, observe how the "narrator" is trying to come up with a story in a unfamiliar setting. Is the story really necessary?
If "awareness" is not something separate from the mind/thought, and thoughts arise by themselves, then who are you talking to? Who are you addressing? There’s no "me" and "you," and this interaction, this communication, is just happening by itself? …Here’s where I get stuck: the moment I typed "you" in this sentence—"but you just see it as an illusion"—I wondered, what does "you" mean here? Using "you" implies I’m addressing someone separate from what’s happening in your experience.
Are there really “me” and “you” or just thought patterns – some labelled “mine” and some “yours”? I’ve given you this exercise before but check again
Breakdown a “conversation with my friend” as in the cup of coffee exercise. What is actually there?
This is interesting! No, I don’t see them as sensations. Are you saying there’s a sensation and then the mind labels it as “awareness”/watcher/witness?
That’s how I tend to see it, but I don’t have proof for it and can’t find it in direct experience (DE).
So where does “awareness” fit?
It’s just a label used for communication but can’t be found as a "thing."
But you do see them as sensations. The description you provided as proof for awareness was: “Just a familiar energy, a density in the chest, throat, and head.” Aren’t these sensations? Besides that description you don’t have any other proof :). And you must know by now that “seems like”/feels like/ sense of “ are just thoughts about these sensations.
No, there’s no distance between the thought and the knowing of it. There are no unknown thoughts.
This is where I get stuck. "In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed"—all true. But there’s still this thought/sense/feeling/belief, or maybe just the use of language, of being "me," separate from the rest of the world, thinking, questioning, and doubting. It’s something I can’t shake off.
Sounds like you're trying to understand with your mind. This confusion is a good sign. Rest in this confusion.
Who is it that is trying to understand?
What makes this doubt or confusion yours to fix?
Who or what is not sure?
Who or what is stuck in the doubt thought?
Is there someone there actually doubting, or.... doubting is just happening on its own, without a person, Shafigh being doubtful?
Is there anything else to doubt than just a thought saying "I'm not sure... I doubt this and that"?
So with that in mind, how does thought, which isn’t aware “get stuck”?


Where could possibly this thinker be if the knowing of the thought is actually the thought? Read this question again! How exactly are you doing the doubt (thinking)? Can you predict what the next doubtful thought will be about? Or they just pop up on their own as a result of previous patterns/conditioning?
If you found a thinker, where exactly is it located in the body? In the head? Where exactly is the head? Is there a head, or is it just a sensation and thoughts ABOUT a head?
Describe the thinker in detail, what does it look like?
How does it feel to touch the thinker?
Is the thinker speaking thoughts?
If so, does it have a high-pitched or a deep voice? Have you ever recorded your thoughts to check?
Does the thinker smell? Is there truly a thinker?

You see that’s the difference between “sense of a thinker” and a real one. You should be able to provide “solid” proof for his/her existence
Doubt cannot be solved! If you are looking for answers in thought stories you will not find them. Doubt can only be dissolved as a result of constant looking at your DE. No other way. All the proof is there!
Doubt comes as a result of fear and resistance to new ways. So please keep on checking (looking!) – who is in need of that protection?
Doubt also comes when there are expectations that are not fulfilled. So please have a careful look and see what these unmet expectations are! Listing them here could help. What do you expect will happen once the illusion of a self is seen?

Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Re: Got stuck in tiger's mouth

Postby poppyseed » Thu Sep 26, 2024 10:58 am

Hi Shafigh
It's been a while! Are you still busy inquiring or all is clear?

Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Re: Got stuck in tiger's mouth

Postby bysa » Thu Sep 26, 2024 9:55 pm

Hi Rali,

No, the inquiry is still going on. The past couple of posts felt like circling around, going back and forth over the same questions without any sense of direction.
Doubt cannot be solved! If you are looking for answers in thought stories you will not find them. Doubt can only be dissolved as a result of constant looking at your DE. No other way. All the proof is there!
I wanted to take a step back, hoping that giving things a pause might allow them to settle, revealing something I haven’t been able to see amidst all this back-and-forth.

My mind still generates more questions and I can come up with different answers to your questions, each seeming to carry an equal sense of truth.
I expected that direct experience would bring certainty and clarity, giving me an alternative tool besides thoughts, but in reality, it’s been ambiguous, and filled with doubt. Now, I’m not sure what’s true or what’s not.

The more I try, the less I know.

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Re: Got stuck in tiger's mouth

Postby poppyseed » Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:29 am

Hi Shafigh
It’s good to hear from you!
The more I try, the less I know.
Yup! That’s what we are aiming at :)
Can THIS be known or described? Would the description ever cover the experience?
The past couple of posts felt like circling around, going back and forth over the same questions without any sense of direction.
My mind still generates more questions and I can come up with different answers to your questions, each seeming to carry an equal sense of truth.
Does THIS have a direction? It takes one look to see what reality is, not 10000 planned and well organised looks. Sounds like you're trying to understand with your mind. If I asked you to tell me what is behind your back right now, you could answer by doing one of two things: by thinking, philosophising and remembering, or by turning your head around and actually looking back and describing what you see. If I ask you to look for your phone or keys, you would quite naturally, take a look and locate them. That’s how to look. It’s just that you’ve been looking for answers in thought. You are trying to arrange everything in a neat little picture – that’s what thought does, looking for logic where there is none. We don’t need to philosophize or make logical connections to simply recognize what is already the case. Meaning (cause and effect) exists only in thoughts
When we look at what is obvious, without thinking or referring to a memory, without trying to fit it into models of reality or to match it to the descriptions given by teachers, there is an intimate, instant recognition. This is. This is what is happening now; the rest is a story. That’s why I keep pointing to what IS. It may seem that we are going in circles but it just hasn’t clicked yet. If you always have a fresh look (instead of remembering the answers from before) it can be the final drop that breaks the old flow of thoughts - seeing the story as empty and insignificant. The answers are all there – no need of new methods or new direction. JUST LOOK!
No one can convince you to recognize something. Of course, you can pretend and say that you do and make logical explanations, express opinions, have debates, write books, and teach about it. But deep knowing comes from within, from looking for yourself. There is no “back and forth” when it comes to direct looking, there is just THIS - unchangeable, inseparable, always here. Thinking flows as/with THIS, including doubtful thoughts ABOUT what is seen, logical conclusions, enlightenment stories etc. What needs to be seen right now is this – is there a thinker of these doubtful thoughts or they come as any other thoughts (self-organised in meaning/unbidden)? What is this I/you that believes these thoughts and gets lost in them? Is there really believing or just a sequence of thoughts (old patterns)? Is there someone there actually doubting, or.... doubting is just happening on its own, without a person, Shafigh being doubtful? Is there anything else to doubt than just a thought saying "I'm not sure... I doubt this and that"? It may seem that “we go in circles” but there is nothing to achieve here. Can you see that?

This confusion is a good sign. Rest in this confusion. Who is it that is trying to understand? What makes this doubt or confusion yours to fix?
Who or what is not sure and confused?
Who or what is fascinated by the doubt thought?


Instead of trying to understand, look at the sensation/feeling that comes before the doubt. That feeling is being avoided by going into thinking and trying to understand this. Feel and sit with that feeling instead. Feel bad. Feel like a doer. Feel the trying to get it. Feel the confusion. And feel everything else that is beneath that. Stuff like despair, hopelessness, frustration, anger, etc. "Let" these just be there and play out. See if there is anything in the sensations that is frustrated, confused, angry, etc or they are just normal sensations that come and go like anything else.
You can also look at the second fetter videos of Pernille she has some really good pointers.
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Re: Got stuck in tiger's mouth

Postby bysa » Mon Sep 30, 2024 6:33 pm

Hi Rali,

Thank you for doing this inquiry with me
Can THIS be known or described? Would the description ever cover the experience?
No, I can’t even describe my direct experience. This has been frustrating and challenging for my mind because it can’t contain it, like other things. There’s always a distance between phrasing and describing the experience and THIS.

Does THIS have a direction?
Not really. But I had this expectation that after I saw that thoughts were arising by themselves, the thought/sense of owning them disappeared. Once it is seen through then there wouldn’t be a back and forth.
You are trying to arrange everything in a neat little picture
That’s very much what my mind is trying to do. Connecting the dots, making sense out of it, wrapping itself around it
What needs to be seen right now is this – is there a thinker of these doubtful thoughts or they come as any other thoughts (self-organised in meaning/unbidden)?
They come as any other thoughts
What is this I/you that believes these thoughts and gets lost in them?
Some of these thoughts pass through easily, but some of them get stuck, I have a sense of owning them, they are mine. Anger and confusion: They feel like me: I am angry, I made a mistake, I need to plan better, I am confused, etc.
Is there really believing or just a sequence of thoughts (old patterns)?
Just a sequence of thoughts
Is there someone there actually doubting, or.... doubting is just happening on its own, without a person, Shafigh being doubtful?
Doubting is just happening on its own, I never found any entity that is doubtful
Is there anything else to doubt than just a thought saying "I'm not sure... I doubt this and that"?
No, there isn’t anything besides thoughts
Who is it that is trying to understand?
Who or what is not sure and confused?
Who or what is fascinated by the doubt thought?
I don’t find anyone, but not finding doesn’t make the doubt go away.
What makes this doubt or confusion yours to fix?
I really don’t know. The only thing I found is that doubt and confusion are very uncomfortable. I have this expectation that there shouldn’t be doubt or confusion and if they exist then there is something that “I” need/ed to do. There is resistance to accepting doubt, and confusion. This probably ties into wanting to find a meaning, and direction for THIS.
Instead of trying to understand, look at the sensation/feeling that comes before the doubt. That feeling is being avoided by going into thinking and trying to understand this. Feel and sit with that feeling instead. Feel bad. Feel like a doer. Feel the trying to get it. Feel the confusion. And feel everything else that is beneath that. Stuff like despair, hopelessness, frustration, anger, etc. "Let" these just be there and play out. See if there is anything in the sensations that is frustrated, confused, angry, etc or they are just normal sensations that come and go like anything else

I did spend the last couple of days paying more attention and looking at what’s underneath and being avoided.
Helplessness is the one that I don’t want to feel at any cost. When I notice that uncomfortable thought/label, the sensation itself is not uncomfortable. I don’t know if there is any uncomfortable/negative sensation. Thoughts are uncomfortable, thinking about the persistence of pain is uncomfortable, thinking about the future or past is uncomfortable but never this exact moment. It is rather enjoyable if I stay in this moment and don’t think about the future or what is coming.

Shafigh

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Re: Got stuck in tiger's mouth

Postby poppyseed » Tue Oct 01, 2024 11:37 am

Hi Shafigh

Thank you for giving me a bit more “background” information!
I don’t find anyone, but not finding doesn’t make the doubt go away.
The only thing I found is that doubt and confusion are very uncomfortable. I have this expectation that there shouldn’t be doubt or confusion and if they exist then there is something that “I” need/ed to do.
Some of these thoughts pass through easily, but some of them get stuck, I have a sense of owning them, they are mine. Anger and confusion: They feel like me: I am angry, I made a mistake, I need to plan better, I am confused, etc.
Well, the more it is found that doubt is only a thought that is not reliable (pure fantasy) the less it appears. That allows the thought to appear and then disappear like a cloud, freely. Doubt appears only because of the resistance to the “uncomfortable” sensations. It is a diversion from feeling these. The actual doubtful thought is based in a believe that contradicts what is currently seen (DE). It could be that you can make things better somehow (fix this confused mess) and that you are in charge/responsible of this process , “wanting to find a meaning, and direction for THIS”. There is a belief that this doubt is of a benefit for you – stopping your life going completely in awry. So seeing beyond doubt that there is no doer/fixer/benefiter (no matter how many times is needed) will eventually dissolve the doubt. You cannot logically resolve doubt because it is based on believes that are not true (false ground base) – so you go in a vicious circle of measuring thoughts (believed to be true) against DE, which leads to confusion and anger. Even maths is valid only within the parameters set – the axioms that are declared as true. Disregarding all thoughts as empty could bypass the issue. Thus, examining all believes, especially the ones that are held tight, is crucial.
LOOK who are the doubtful thoughts talking to, who are they trying to persuade that things are not OK as they are and they need fixing? To whom are they reporting? What is this mysterious entity that hears the thoughts and decides what to do with the information? Can you choose what will happen tomorrow or in 5 min? Really? Observe how many times during the day plans either get changed or completely discarded. The few coincidental times when they actually came true give the confidence that you are really in charge, but look carefully if this is true. Is there a you that decides or just cause and effect playing their course, with thoughts running along telling a story about it?
When you say that these thoughts “feel like me” how exactly do they feel like, that looks like a me? What does the “me” feels like? Describe. Is there a little angry/confused “me” in them? Where is this “I”/Shafigh that is angry and confused? What is angry? There are sensations there but can you pinpoint the ones that are “angry”? Are these angry or they present as generic sensations like “tight chest”, “increased heartrate” etc? Is there anything else to the “tight chest” that makes it “angry”? Does the sensation know anything about anger and why it is appearing? Is there a hook (literal) that connects the word “angry” with the sensation “tight chest”? Without the label how can you tell that the sensations are “angry”? Aren’t they simply unnamed sensations that happen to be appearing in this moment? A tight chest is a tight chest, and nothing more – not anger, and not a story about something that brings anger.
When you say “I have a sense of owning them, they are mine”, where do you keep the thoughts, and where do you go to retrieve them and make them appear when you need them? Are they known before that, or only as they appear?
So are you the creator of these doubtful thoughts or their listener? Why do you need to persuade yourself and talk to yourself if both? If you know for certain what is right why do you need to discuss it?


If you are the observer of these thoughts and sensations, where are you observing them from? What gives you the indication that you are there observing? With eyes closed, can you look into your chest and see that is tight? Can your eyes actually see inside your chest? So isn’t it just a mental image that is appearing giving the impression that sensations are seen or felt (from above)? Focus on the sensations that are labelled “me”. Can you find an observer in them? Look at the sensations of “eyes” /”behind the eyes”. Is there an observer there or just dull subtle sensations of “pressure” with a mental image of “eyes”? Where could possibly this observer be?
Helplessness is the one that I don’t want to feel at any cost. When I notice that uncomfortable thought/label, the sensation itself is not uncomfortable. I don’t know if there is any uncomfortable/negative sensation. Thoughts are uncomfortable, thinking about the persistence of pain is uncomfortable, thinking about the future or past is uncomfortable but never this exact moment. It is rather enjoyable if I stay in this moment and don’t think about the future or what is coming.
So why go into stories if they are uncomfortable, stay with the real experience :)
You can approach “helplessness” the same way as “anger”. Notice the tension that is connected to the wanting/ expectation to find meaning, to secure the future, to stop doubtful thoughts. Feel the sensation. What is that?
There is fear that expectations won’t be met. The feelings of sadness, regret, shame, guilt, blame, anger, desperation, and hopelessness, are all based on expectation. If one can let go of wants, shoulds, and should nots, triggers are released too. No more expectations, no more fear that they won’t be met, no more resistance to what is here now. Wanting control is the flip side of lacking control. Wanting is a sign that something is incomplete, or missing. Here is another angle. Wanting control is just that — wanting/thinking. There is a story about trying to be in control and not succeeding and the story of guilt and shame or hopelessness that arise with the failure. Sensations arise; take a look at them. Which one of them is the sensation of “being in or out of control”/”hopelessness”? Can you pinpoint it? What is that sensation without the label?
The end of trying to change what IS starts with seeing that the doer is imagined. There is no one responsible for what will happen, things are happening and the story goes with it. Seeing the emptiness of the story helps seeing things as they are – already perfect. They are perfect because they cannot be any other way that they are – perfect. Anything that says that they are not perfect is a conditioned thought, a thought about I and its interests, desires, fears etc.

What happens when “wanting control” shows and no action is taken? Look what is behind this pattern – it needs to be seen, then it can drop away. Then "you" can relax and enjoy what is happening, rather than trying endlessly to make things go in a particular way and becoming upset when they don’t.

Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Re: Got stuck in tiger's mouth

Postby bysa » Wed Oct 02, 2024 7:48 pm

Hi Rali,
who are the doubtful thoughts talking to, who are they trying to persuade that things are not OK as they are and they need fixing? To whom are they reporting? What is this mysterious entity that hears the thoughts and decides what to do with the information?
Just the sequence of thoughts makes it seem like there is a conversation going on between an entity and thoughts, but when looked closely, there is no entity or center.
Can you choose what will happen tomorrow or in 5 min? Really?
No
Observe how many times during the day plans either get changed or completely discarded.
I’ve been observing this for a while now and in retrospect, it’s amazing how there is still the illusion of being in charge or decision-making considering 99.9% of the time things don’t go according to “plan”.
Is there a you that decides or just cause and effect playing their course, with thoughts running along telling a story about it?
I’m even questioning the story about cause and effect. Taking into account the vast number of parameters, it’s impossible to know what the cause is, it’s just the best guess with the limited knowledge we have.
When you say that these thoughts “feel like me” how exactly do they feel like, that looks like a me? What does the “me” feels like? Describe.
This is the question that I can’t find an answer to, why do some of these thoughts/feelings “feel like me”. So far, the only thing that I can come up with is that this category of thoughts persists longer. Other thoughts come and go, randomly from here and there but thoughts that have the same theme for example about being angry or confused, when one of them comes, for whatever reason (maybe because they feel uncomfortable in the body: heavy chest, pressure in the head and wanting to make them go away) they keep coming one after another and that feels like there is an entity that grabs them, hold them. And, in there also exists another thought about this feeling shouldn’t be here, should do something about it
Is there a little angry/confused “me” in them? Where is this “I”/Shafigh that is angry and confused?
There is none.
What is angry? There are sensations there but can you pinpoint the ones that are “angry”? 
Without label there is no “angry” sensation
Are these angry or they present as generic sensations like “tight chest”, “increased heartrate” etc? Is there anything else to the “tight chest” that makes it “angry”? Does the sensation know anything about anger and why it is appearing? Is there a hook (literal) that connects the word “angry” with the sensation “tight chest”? Without the label how can you tell that the sensations are “angry”? Aren’t they simply unnamed sensations that happen to be appearing in this moment? 
There is no hook between the label and the sensations. Without thoughts/labels, there is no negative sensation. This sounds very odd and strange to consider but without thought, what’s the difference between liberation and suffering? I don’t know at this point.
When you say “I have a sense of owning them, they are mine”, where do you keep the thoughts, and where do you go to retrieve them and make them appear when you need them? Are they known before that, or only as they appear?
They only appear and are not known before. Again, I don’t know why they come with the thought of responsibility. Who is responsible? It’s like watching a channel on TV and sometimes you get lost in the content and forget that you’re just “watching” something. Words are hard to use! Some of them are loaded like “watch” which implies there is a watcher who doesn’t exist.
Interestingly, you used “retrieve”. Made me think: is there a place where beliefs are stored? Like the hard drive of a computer that holds what is believed to be true or beliefs are also different types of thoughts that are arising by themselves. I say different types because they are not verbal or visual like thoughts, they are known, almost like an undercurrent and that’s why they seem different.
So are you the creator of these doubtful thoughts or their listener? Why do you need to persuade yourself and talk to yourself if both? If you know for certain what is right why do you need to discuss it?
This is a good point! I had the idea that I’m both but after starting this inquiry it became clear that I'm not the creator. For a while, I thought I was the listener, but this also doesn’t hold. Thoughts are just arising by themselves, their content is wild!
If you are the observer of these thoughts and sensations, where are you observing them from? What gives you the indication that you are there observing? With eyes closed, can you look into your chest and see that is tight?
No indication for the observer, with eyes closed many of the concepts like distance fall apart
Can your eyes actually see inside your chest? So isn’t it just a mental image that is appearing giving the impression that sensations are seen or felt (from above)? 
Without the mental image, there is no above/below and without labels and communication there is no chest and tightness
Focus on the sensations that are labelled “me”. Can you find an observer in them?
No
Look at the sensations of “eyes” /”behind the eyes”. Is there an observer there or just dull subtle sensations of “pressure” with a mental image of “eyes”? Where could possibly this observer be?
Can’t find the observer anywhere, only in content of thoughts
So why go into stories if they are uncomfortable, stay with the real experience :)
I don’t know why, It happens by itself.
There is a story about trying to be in control and not succeeding and the story of guilt and shame or hopelessness that arise with the failure. 
This has been the story of my life so to speak.
Sensations arise; take a look at them. Which one of them is the sensation of “being in or out of control”/”hopelessness”? Can you pinpoint it? What is that sensation without the label?
Without labels, no idea about what is each sensation, there is no story attached to them to say this is being in/out of control or negative or positive.


What happens when “wanting control” shows and no action is taken? Look what is behind this pattern – it needs to be seen, then it can drop away. Then "you" can relax and enjoy what is happening, rather than trying endlessly to make things go in a particular way and becoming upset when they don’t.
I REALLY want to get there, but not sure how. Should I don’t take action when feeling this urge? Or delay it?
"you" can relax and enjoy what is happening, rather than trying endlessly to make things go in a particular way and becoming upset when they don’t.
this is the ultimate meaning of liberation for me.

I have to try it in action, but thinking about taking no action brings fear. Fear of “my” life falling apart. Almost like “I” have a part to play, need to help this flow of life to continue. And nothing gets done if “I” don’t take any action. “My” life pauses.
When my cat meows, I don’t know which one comes first: a wave of thoughts about getting up and going to check on him, Or sensation in chest, heaviness, (these are labels to just communicate) and this thought comes that “choose” to get up or continue, a lot of labelings about shame, guilt, responsibility and I get up

Thank you for everything,
Shafigh

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Re: Got stuck in tiger's mouth

Postby poppyseed » Thu Oct 03, 2024 10:35 am

Hi Shafigh
Very good observations!
I’ve been observing this for a while now and in retrospect, it’s amazing how there is still the illusion of being in charge or decision-making considering 99.9% of the time things don’t go according to “plan”.
Keep on watching until there is certainty. That is the way :)
I’m even questioning the story about cause and effect. Taking into account the vast number of parameters, it’s impossible to know what the cause is, it’s just the best guess with the limited knowledge we have.
Exactly! Cause and effect are an illusion, the next best guess
This is the question that I can’t find an answer to, why do some of these thoughts/feelings “feel like me”. So far, the only thing that I can come up with is that this category of thoughts persists longer. Other thoughts come and go, randomly from here and there but thoughts that have the same theme for example about being angry or confused, when one of them comes, for whatever reason (maybe because they feel uncomfortable in the body: heavy chest, pressure in the head and wanting to make them go away) they keep coming one after another and that feels like there is an entity that grabs them, hold them. And, in there also exists another thought about this feeling shouldn’t be here, should do something about it
Again, I don’t know why they come with the thought of responsibility. Who is responsible? It’s like watching a channel on TV and sometimes you get lost in the content and forget that you’re just “watching” something. Words are hard to use! Some of them are loaded like “watch” which implies there is a watcher who doesn’t exist.
Good analogy! Exactly, some shows are appealing because of previous “engagement” with similar shows (positive or negative), and some are just neutral (no engagement, aka no additional stories). There is a desire/thought to see more of the positive and avoid the negative. What is interesting though is why some are considered/labelled “positive” and others ”negative”. Why are some labelled “heavy chest, pressure in the head” (negative connotation) and others are not even noticed (neutral) or labelled “bliss, lightness, excitement” (positive). How exactly are these sensations different? Is that classification intrinsic or is it conditioned? The intensity might be different but besides that...? Look! When there is engagement (more stories), pay attention not to the story but to the sensations. That labelling is there either because the sensations are associated with “positive or negative” experience. That association happened at some point (you might remember or not), but is it true? Look, is there anything negative or positive in the sensations. The more you stay with actual sensations the more the story is released and its “heaviness” removed. When you stay with the “unpleasant” sensations, do you notice the pull back to the story? The story is a nice diversion to avoid the sensations, just out of habit (they’ve always/for a long time fired together). So try and stay longer with what is really happening. Can you be in a body where these “unpleasant” sensations are happening? Are they really that unpleasant?
Just to clarify, before you start “implying a watcher” as you have already seen there is no one, the noticing is a recognition (still a thought) of what is actually here and self-correcting the stream of thoughts. It might happen after recognising once or 1000 times (you never know). It depends of the severity of the label/back story
I REALLY want to get there, but not sure how. Should I don’t take action when feeling this urge? Or delay it?
"you" can relax and enjoy what is happening, rather than trying endlessly to make things go in a particular way and becoming upset when they don’t.
this is the ultimate meaning of liberation for me.
I have to try it in action, but thinking about taking no action brings fear. Fear of “my” life falling apart. Almost like “I” have a part to play, need to help this flow of life to continue. And nothing gets done if “I” don’t take any action. “My” life pauses.
When my cat meows, I don’t know which one comes first: a wave of thoughts about getting up and going to check on him, Or sensation in chest, heaviness, (these are labels to just communicate) and this thought comes that “choose” to get up or continue, a lot of labelings about shame, guilt, responsibility and I get up
Can you actually chose what to do? Do you have a choice? In a way things have already happened. There is no time line – past, present, and future exist right now. Seeming actions are happening, a story of guilt, shame, and fear, of responsibility and decisions flow with that happening. The cat gets fed or not despite the story that comes along, can you see that? The Schrödinger's cat comes to mind :)
You can say you don’t have time to do that right now, and next thing you are up bringing the food, accompanied by thoughts of guilt. Is the story of guilt necessary for things to happen? Remember the soccer game video experiement. Was the commentary necessary for the game to happen in a way that it happened? Consider this: the future never comes— all we have is now. Thinking about problems does not solve problems, it creates them. Thinking about the past or future creates a story of a lack of safety. It can drive you nuts. All of this is happening in the mind, not in reality, can you see that?
How would your life fall apart when you have NEVER been in charge of what is happening? Can you make peace with the fact that you simply don't know what will happen next? Can you live in a body where there is uncertainty?

Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Re: Got stuck in tiger's mouth

Postby bysa » Fri Oct 04, 2024 1:05 am

Hi Rali,
How exactly are these sensations different? Is that classification intrinsic or is it conditioned? The intensity might be different but besides that...?
I can only say because of thoughts/labeling. “pain or pressure” in the back can be considered “negative” if it suddenly appears for example at night without any good reason or story, the same pressure is considered “good” when it is seen as the result of workout or a massage.
I’m curious to see if there is an inherently painful sensation regardless of the story like tooth pain is always painful. Or if focused on the sensation solely it can be just a sensation, or experience.
What about thoughts? Meaning is there no negative or positive thought and labeling them is just another thought?
That association happened at some point (you might remember or not), but is it true?
My definition of something being true is that it is always the case. This association is not always the case so it can’t be true.
When you stay with the “unpleasant” sensations, do you notice the pull back to the story?
Oh yes, very much. Going to the story of doing something about it, even when the story is unpleasant like guilt or shame still is preferred to stay with the raw sensation. The story creates a mental problem (distraction) and then looks for a solution for that problem and it goes on and on.
Can you be in a body where these “unpleasant” sensations are happening? Are they really that unpleasant?
It requires effort and being present to not go with the habit of going to thinking. But, I’m going to do that. I noticed sometimes, there’s not even an “unpleasant” sensation to escape to thinking. I’m not sure whether there are sensations and I don’t notice them because of going into thoughts or sometimes there are just thoughts without sensations (I’m still looking for the gap!)
Can you actually chose what to do? Do you have a choice?
No, and that’s perfect!
The cat gets fed or not despite the story that comes along, can you see that?
Starting to see that more and more
The Schrödinger's cat comes to mind :)
:) yes
You can say you don’t have time to do that right now, and next thing you are up bringing the food, accompanied by thoughts of guilt. Is the story of guilt necessary for things to happen?
This is interesting, I am not sure about what is necessary, since depending on perspective something might be necessary or not. As you said “In a way things have already happened.” Maybe the story of guilt is not necessary for feeding the cat but it’s necessary for something else.
Remember the soccer game video experiement. Was the commentary necessary for the game to happen in a way that it happened?
It is not necessary for the soccer game to happen, but it is necessary for the experience of others who listen to the commentary.
the future never comes— all we have is now. Thinking about problems does not solve problems, it creates them. Thinking about the past or future creates a story of a lack of safety. It can drive you nuts. All of this is happening in the mind, not in reality, can you see that?
Not as clear as the rest of your post.
How would your life fall apart when you have NEVER been in charge of what is happening? Can you make peace with the fact that you simply don't know what will happen next?
Thank you for reminding me…This thought of being responsible for my life, trying to know what is going to happen, doing something about it, and making it better has been always the biggest burden as long as I remember. The few moments in my life that I felt freedom was when this burden was lifted, I could breathe then.
Can you live in a body where there is uncertainty?
This is hard for me…feeling the tension in my gut, like a clenched fist of NO, not accepting uncertainty.

Thank you Rali for being here,
Shafigh

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Re: Got stuck in tiger's mouth

Postby poppyseed » Fri Oct 04, 2024 9:42 am

Hi Shafigh
I’m curious to see if there is an inherently painful sensation regardless of the story like tooth pain is always painful. Or if focused on the sensation solely it can be just a sensation, or experience.
Even toothache could be enjoyed, or at least tolerated. There are some (e.g. masochists) that find pleasure in pain. However, pain serves to protect the system – a toothache is a clear signal to go to the dentist.
What about thoughts? Meaning is there no negative or positive thought and labeling them is just another thought?
You are mixing pears and apples here. If there is no meaning, there is no positive or negative. If there is meaning it could be positive or negative depending on the axioms (conditioning). Thoughts as “energetic” appearance are just that – an appearance. Their meaning, however, is dependent on previous use and other concepts. Saying, all thoughts are empty so their meaning is part of the whole, is true, but it is bypassing the purpose of the inquiry – to reduce the suffering. Suffering is a side effect of thoughts gone wild, and the same way as tooth pain is a warning for a danger and corrected by going to the dentist, suffering is corrected (self-corrected) by bringing thoughts back to the experience (not other thoughts). Agree?
My definition of something being true is that it is always the case. This association is not always the case so it can’t be true.
Exactly! But that needs to be seen with every thought because a lot of them have just been assumed to be true, just because they have “always” appeared in the same situation.
It requires effort and being present to not go with the habit of going to thinking. But, I’m going to do that. I noticed sometimes, there’s not even an “unpleasant” sensation to escape to thinking. I’m not sure whether there are sensations and I don’t notice them because of going into thoughts or sometimes there are just thoughts without sensations (I’m still looking for the gap!)
There is always something – it might be subtle or just “neutral”. Making all sensations “neutral” is where there is no desire for things to be different – to have more or none of this.
This is interesting, I am not sure about what is necessary, since depending on perspective something might be necessary or not. As you said “In a way things have already happened.” Maybe the story of guilt is not necessary for feeding the cat but it’s necessary for something else.
Yes, like for example making you look what is being avoided here. Who are we to say that seeing through that guilt will not break down all the resistance and doubt here :))
Anyway, like you said cause and effect are just in thoughts where all the meaning is.
the future never comes— all we have is now. Thinking about problems does not solve problems, it creates them. Thinking about the past or future creates a story of a lack of safety. It can drive you nuts. All of this is happening in the mind, not in reality, can you see that?
Not as clear as the rest of your post.
Well right now, all you have are sensations, colours, sounds, smells, tastes and the presence of thoughts – no future and no past. What thoughts are about is non existent. Problems and their solutions are non-existent – all is how it is supposed to be – perfect as it cannot be any other way (no choice). Whatever comes next is not a solution to an existing problem (e.g. something wrong with the current situation) – it happens because it has to happen. The illusion of choice creates the need for plans and decisions. “Good”/“bad”, “awesome”/“terrible”, "hopeful"/"hopeless" are just conditioned labels to what is happening forced by an attempt to guess what will happen next and change it. The mind dreams endless what-if scenarios and creates hope, desire as well as fear— fear that a desired outcome may never happen. But if you look at nature, there is no hope, things just happen. Hope is just the opposite of hopelessness - an empty/useless concept describing nothing real or existing. But when all labels are removed and thought is just silently present (“being”), it is recognised (still thought but a silent one) that nothing needs fixing and whatever needs to happen will happen on its own without entities – actionless actions :). Cats will be fed (or not), work will be finished (or not), friends will be seen, etc. No need for decisions and planning – mind is freed from being the horrible master (an incompetent manager), to actually being a useful servant ( a PA). The mind no longer creates future scenarios in which it looks for solutions to imagined problems, to the what-ifs. It doesn’t even go there, as this exercise does not add to experience but only redirects the focus to dreamland, which the mind now recognizes is futile. It can be entertaining and fun to wander into imagination, and if that’s what’s happening, then that is happening, and it it seen as just that.
Can you live in a body where there is uncertainty?
This is hard for me…feeling the tension in my gut, like a clenched fist of NO, not accepting uncertainty.
The more you stay with just the sensations – not labels like “clenched fist” or “tension in my gut”, etc – the more it will be recognised that there is nothing wrong with these sensation. Look! Are the sensations even describable? Is there a fist in the sensations? Are they in your gut? Do they have a location? I know that you have to communicate what the sensations are like and that is OK, as long as it is recognised that the map is not the territory. Stripping the sensations of all descriptive labels – the real chocolate vs the imaginary one vs the description – allows the freedom to experience all and little by little labels are replaced with more accurate ones, sensations become “neutral”.
It is not necessary for the soccer game to happen, but it is necessary for the experience of others who listen to the commentary.
What others? Other experiencers?
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Re: Got stuck in tiger's mouth

Postby bysa » Mon Oct 07, 2024 1:02 am

Hi Rali,

You are mixing pears and apples here. If there is no meaning, there is no positive or negative. If there is meaning it could be positive or negative depending on the axioms (conditioning). Thoughts as “energetic” appearance are just that – an appearance. Their meaning, however, is dependent on previous use and other concepts. Saying, all thoughts are empty so their meaning is part of the whole, is true, but it is bypassing the purpose of the inquiry – to reduce the suffering. Suffering is a side effect of thoughts gone wild, and the same way as tooth pain is a warning for a danger and corrected by going to the dentist, suffering is corrected (self-corrected) by bringing thoughts back to the experience (not other thoughts). Agree?
The line between bypassing and acceptance isn't always clear to me. When I try to clarify it by reading or thinking, it doesn’t lead anywhere—likely because it becomes too abstract and disconnected from my actual experience. I find myself relating more and more to “everything is exactly as it’s supposed to be—perfect because it couldn’t be any other way.” I’m just not sure if that’s acceptance or bypassing.
There is always something – it might be subtle or just “neutral”. Making all sensations “neutral” is where there is no desire for things to be different – to have more or none of this.
Sensations aren’t as apparent, especially when interacting with “others”. Usually, thoughts rush in, making it difficult to look beneath the storm. It’s much easier for me to notice the underlying sensations when I’m alone or have time to pause and reflect.
Well right now, all you have are sensations, colours, sounds, smells, tastes and the presence of thoughts – no future and no past. What thoughts are about is non existent. Problems and their solutions are non-existent – all is how it is supposed to be – perfect as it cannot be any other way (no choice). Whatever comes next is not a solution to an existing problem (e.g. something wrong with the current situation) – it happens because it has to happen. The illusion of choice creates the need for plans and decisions. “Good”/“bad”, “awesome”/“terrible”, "hopeful"/"hopeless" are just conditioned labels to what is happening forced by an attempt to guess what will happen next and change it. The mind dreams endless what-if scenarios and creates hope, desire as well as fear— fear that a desired outcome may never happen. But if you look at nature, there is no hope, things just happen. Hope is just the opposite of hopelessness - an empty/useless concept describing nothing real or existing. But when all labels are removed and thought is just silently present (“being”), it is recognised (still thought but a silent one) that nothing needs fixing and whatever needs to happen will happen on its own without entities – actionless actions :). Cats will be fed (or not), work will be finished (or not), friends will be seen, etc. No need for decisions and planning – mind is freed from being the horrible master (an incompetent manager), to actually being a useful servant ( a PA). The mind no longer creates future scenarios in which it looks for solutions to imagined problems, to the what-ifs. It doesn’t even go there, as this exercise does not add to experience but only redirects the focus to dreamland, which the mind now recognizes is futile. It can be entertaining and fun to wander into imagination, and if that’s what’s happening, then that is happening, and it it seen as just that.
Oh, thank you! This is very clear and matches the experience.
Look! Are the sensations even describable? Is there a fist in the sensations? Are they in your gut? Do they have a location?
No, they aren’t describable. It’s true that when we try to communicate, we have to use labels, but sometimes I notice there’s a voice that narrates the sensations and applies these labels even though no one is actually there. It’s almost like an internal conversation is happening, and this labeling makes the sensations feel “negative” or “positive.”
It is not necessary for the soccer game to happen, but it is necessary for the experience of others who listen to the commentary.
What others? Other experiencers?
Others! We’ve looked at it, and from experience, there are no "others." There’s no difference between seeing a tree and seeing other people—their actions and what they say. It’s just another well-established assumption running in the background. But, I’m not sure why others seem different from what’s happening, almost as if they are separate entities or other selves, like other players apart from my experience.

Shafigh

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Re: Got stuck in tiger's mouth

Postby poppyseed » Mon Oct 07, 2024 10:40 am

Hi Shafigh
The line between bypassing and acceptance isn't always clear to me. When I try to clarify it by reading or thinking, it doesn’t lead anywhere—likely because it becomes too abstract and disconnected from my actual experience. I find myself relating more and more to “everything is exactly as it’s supposed to be—perfect because it couldn’t be any other way.” I’m just not sure if that’s acceptance or bypassing.
Sensations aren’t as apparent, especially when interacting with “others”. Usually, thoughts rush in, making it difficult to look beneath the storm. It’s much easier for me to notice the underlying sensations when I’m alone or have time to pause and reflect.
While the perspective of “everything is exactly as it’s supposed to be—perfect because it couldn’t be any other way” can be liberating, it's essential to ensure it's not being used to bypass challenging emotions or experiences.

Acceptance is definitely good, but as long as there are “storms” which are not accepted (considered to be "storms") and there is a reaction, it is just theoretical/intellectual understanding (aka bypassing), and not a reality. True acceptance would not even get close to a “breeze” :). It will be just another day of life’s complexity.

Let me try to distinguish between the two better:

Bypassing often involves:
●Using spiritual ideas or concepts to avoid facing uncomfortable emotions or situations. For instance, "There is no 'I,' so there's no issue at all," particularly when dealing with past trauma or difficult feelings (conditioning). This highlights how the understanding of no-self, while ultimately true, can be misused as a way to not challenge untrue descriptions of emotional experiences.
●Prioritising a desired state or experience over honestly acknowledging what's present. This suggests that bypassing often stems from the desire to maintain a sense of control and avoid discomfort (experiencing "uncertainty").
●Confusing intellectual understanding with direct experience. Genuine transformation arises from directly encountering and investigating experience, rather than simply adopting intellectual concepts. When "stormy" thoughts arise, bring the focus to what is present here now. Just THIS. This highlights the importance of always staying in the immediacy of experience rather than getting lost in mental analysis.

Acceptance, as opposed to bypassing, involves:
● Allowing whatever arises in experience to be present without judgment or resistance. This doesn't mean condoning harmful behaviours or denying the validity of negative emotions. Instead, it's about creating space for these experiences to arise and be acknowledged without being overwhelmed or defined by them. When feelings arise, give them space, feel them, honour them.
●Acknowledging the impermanent nature of all experiences, including challenging ones. Recognising that all things, including difficult emotions, are in constant flux can help to lessen their grip and create a sense of spaciousness. When there's no attachment to anything, it's just coming and going like a cloud.
● Responding to situations from a place of looking/noticing, rather than reacting from habitual patterns. When you are content with whatever IS, there's not even a sense of attention either. There's just being and peace. Acceptance allows for a more balanced and centred approach to life's challenges.

You mentioned that sensations become less apparent when interacting with others and that thoughts tend to "rush in." This is a common experience, as the mind often tries to navigate social interactions by relying on pre-existing beliefs and assumptions about oneself and others. To cultivate greater awareness of sensations in these moments, it could be helpful to:
●Practise looking during interactions. This involves paying attention to your physical sensations, thoughts, and emotions as they arise, without judgment or attachment.
●Create pauses in conversations. Brief moments of silence can create space for you to connect with your DE and notice any arising sensations.
● Reflect on your experiences after interactions. Taking time to process your interactions can help you identify patterns and gain insights into your habitual reactions.
Remember, distinguishing between acceptance and bypassing is an ongoing process of self-inquiry. By honestly examining your motivations, paying close attention to your direct experience, and seeking support when needed, "you" can navigate this challenging terrain with greater clarity and authenticity.
No, they aren’t describable. It’s true that when we try to communicate, we have to use labels, but sometimes I notice there’s a voice that narrates the sensations and applies these labels even though no one is actually there. It’s almost like an internal conversation is happening, and this labeling makes the sensations feel “negative” or “positive.”
Well, is there such a voice – one that you can record and play back – or this is how thoughts are experienced? LOOK! Don’t let anything unchecked. The only antidote to doubt is checking what the DE is.

Observe the mind as a labelling machine. Look around the room and notice things, see how thoughts label everything automatically. This automatic labelling process can create the illusion that a separate entity/a narrator is observing and evaluating sensations,colours, smells... when, in reality, it's just the mind's (thoughts') habitual way of operating. When the explanations are running... try to find who is hearing and receiving the thoughts and who is doing the explanation? Are there two entities or just the content of thoughts? Once there is no more suspicion, it is known without any doubt that the narrator is an illusion (the nature of thoughts), focus can be shifted to examining the validity of the labels “positive” and “negative” vs the DE of the sensations…
Others! We’ve looked at it, and from experience, there are no "others." There’s no difference between seeing a tree and seeing other people—their actions and what they say. It’s just another well-established assumption running in the background. But, I’m not sure why others seem different from what’s happening, almost as if they are separate entities or other selves, like other players apart from my experience.
“Almost as if…” = thought content
Seeing-seer-seen? Or just seeing_seen?
You've acknowledged that, based on your exploration, there's no fundamental difference between seeing a tree and seeing another person - it's all part of the same unfolding experience. However, the question remains: why does the sense of separateness persist, especially in relation to other people?

The belief in a separate self, along with its accompanying sense of separation from others, is deeply ingrained through years of social conditioning. This conditioning runs so deep that even when the illusion of self is seen through, the ingrained habit of perceiving separation can linger. Language plays a significant role in constructing and reinforcing the sense of separation. We use labels like "I," "me," and "you" as a matter of convenience in communication. However, these labels, while practically useful, are often mistaken for representing actual entities, further solidifying the sense of separateness.
Emotional reactions, particularly those rooted in past conditioning or trauma, can contribute to the sense of separation from others. When triggered, these emotional patterns can create a sense of contraction and isolation, making it difficult to see the interconnectedness of experience. Ask yourself: who would you and others be if there could just be emotional feelings, without an imagined “you” that feels emotions caused by "others"?
In our investigation of “others” I kept pointing that what “others are saying” is an interpretation/thought about a sound. This refers to the tendency to project one's own beliefs, assumptions, and past experiences onto “others” and the “world”, creating a distorted perception of reality. When you look at other people, it's always reflected back to yourself. You never ever hear what the true intention of what is said... because you can't. The experience of sound is HERE. You can only hear through your perception, through what you have a previous experience about. If I start talking to you about quantum physics, your understanding will be within the limits of your knowledge on that subject (together with the assumption of another talking about that). This interpretation can make it seem like others are separate and independent sources of thoughts, feelings, and actions, when in reality, we're only ever experiencing our own projections/interpretation.
Seeing through the illusion of self is not a one-time event that instantly eradicates all pre-existing conditioning. Integrating the understanding of no-self into daily life is a gradual process of "cleaning up" old beliefs and conditioning (bypassing vs acceptance).
The key to navigating this paradox is to continually return to direct experience, observing the arising of the sense of separation without judgment. Always question the assumptions! Is there an inside and an outside of the body? What about the other objects (nature, animals, people)? Is there a "you" that feels separated from them or is that just another thought/concept?
Applying kindness throughout this process is vital. The deconstruction of deeply held beliefs takes time and effort. Remember, the journey of self-inquiry is a deeply personal one, and the way in which these concepts manifest in your life will be uniquely your own.

Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti


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