Awake Awareness Knows Itself

[mirrormoon]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?

That which we are is. No outside world, no inside experience—only being.

This being that is flows through life with no effort, unbound by limited ideas of itself, and experiences the world free.

What are you looking for at LU?

I seek to dissolve the persistent patterns of thought that create a false sense of self and to rest in the pure, unbound awareness that is always present. I wish to engage in conversations and gain insights that will help me integrate this understanding into my daily life, fostering a deeper sense of peace, equanimity, and harmony with the world.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

I hope the conversation will help me:

Deepen my practice of mindful presence and awareness.
Dissolve the persistent patterns of thought that create a false sense of self.
Rest in the pure, unbound awareness that is always present.
Integrate these insights into my daily life, fostering a deeper sense of peace, equanimity, and harmony with the world.
Gain clarity on any questions or challenges I encounter in my practice.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

I have been a Zen practitioner for a few years now. I stayed with a temple in CA for a year. Now I chat with my teacher on a weekly and sometimes daily basis. I practice Core Transformation, silent illumination, Yang Tai chi, Shaolin Kungfu, and meditation while sitting, standing, walking, working, etc.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[poppyseed]

Hi mirrormoon
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[mirrormoon]

Hi Rali,

I'm interested in moving forward with the process. Thank you for offering to be a guide.

Hi mirrormoon
(is that what you want me to call you?)

My real, nick name, is Drew. Feel free to use either Mirrormoon, Drew or whatever name seems fitting, I have no preference :)

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.

Great! I'll try to make it part of my routine to come on here each morning. My time zone is PDT (UTC -7)
What is your time zone?

In gratitude,
Drewbert

[poppyseed]

Hi Drew

I'm interested in moving forward with the process. Thank you for offering to be a guide.

Awesome! And it’s my pleasure :)

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

My time zone is PDT (UTC -7)

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage

Great! I'll try to make it part of my routine to come on here each morning.

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[mirrormoon]

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

Nothing will happen that is different from what's happening now, other than a dropping of identification with the stream of thoughts, stories and objects of the world and my mind.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I have no expectations. No preferences. Nothing I want to happen. Life is as it is, naturally occurring. I don't want it to occur differently according to the content of my mind.

3. What do you want not to happen?

Nothing comes to mind

4. What are you hoping for?

I'm am not hopeful for anything other than a life that comes and goes as unadulterated flow of being.

5. What is missing?

When I ask that question of myself a feeling comes, but that feeling is only the being with all experiences that arise within my awareness. Nothing in terms of thoughts arise to meet the question.

There is nothing missing.

[poppyseed]

Hi Drew

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?
Love
Rali

[mirrormoon]

Hi Rali,

I'm really enjoying this :) process.

Is that OK with you?

Ordinary is great with me! Yes!

If you look for the I, what is there?

I sat and lived with the looking for "I" for the weeks coming up to posting on LU. As I more intently LOOK, what arises in terms of thoughts are very limited or nonexistent. Thoughts that arise are the habitual, "who am I?"

If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

When I look for "I" and meditate on there being no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker or a witness, what comes up is the thought, "sounds about right!"

Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find?

I looked everywhere! lol hahaha. This "I" that I am is not to be found in any of the experiences that “I” may have.

Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Okay, so in terms of experience, what occurs is whatever is happening. So right now I hear birds chirping, my fingers clacking at the keyboard, my own voice as I talk to myself noting the things occurring.

Although when I list these experiences out, there’s a little voice, or a feeling that says, “You describing those things is not those things. Those things are unbound by your description of them”

Although when I was first sitting down to type this, this answer came, “ who I am does not live in anything.” “non abiding.”

No shivers, nothing. It's always been this way.


With love,
Drewbert

[mirrormoon]

WOOPS! This post is more clear. Sorry about that!


Hi Rali,

I'm really enjoying this :) process.

Is that OK with you?

Ordinary is great with me! Yes!

If you look for the I, what is there?

I sat and lived with the looking for "I" for the weeks coming up to posting on LU. As I more intently LOOK, what arises in terms of thoughts are very limited or nonexistent. Thoughts that arise are the habitual, "who am I?"

If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

When I look for "I" and meditate on there being no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker or a witness, what comes up is the thought, "sounds about right!"

Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find?

I looked everywhere! lol hahaha. This "I" that I am is not to be found in any of the experiences that “I” may have.

Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Okay, so in terms of experience, what occurs is whatever is happening. So right now I hear birds chirping, my fingers clacking at the keyboard, my own voice as I talk to myself noting the things occurring.

Although when I list these experiences out, there’s a little voice, or a feeling that says, “You describing those things is not those things. Those things are unbound by your description of them”

Although when I was first sitting down to type this, this answer came, “ who I am does not live in anything.” “non abiding.”

No shivers, nothing. It's always been this way.


With love,
Drewbert

[mirrormoon]

Note: I should say that when I said, "No shivers, nothing. It's always been this way."

My fingers typed that out and it just felt right.

Though I should say that I have been body bound in the past, but relived myself of being in my body many months ago. Although this is not to say that I'm not in touch with my body, as I am a practioner of Tai Chi, Kung Fu, and occasionally explore self-guided somatic healing.

I am not located in my body. When I look in the mirror I simply see. Although while the seeing occurs there is still the knowing need to keep up to date my body, of course(cleanliness, style, odor, etc.) Maybe there is identity that I need to uphold for functional purposes, but I'm past the honeymoon phase of that recognition and now there's a settled way of being.

What I'm interested in is the unexplored, and maybe this process can discover it and I can rest in loving being with it.

love,
Drewbert

[mirrormoon]

Hey Rali,

I would like to add that I suspect there is a part of me that is totally bullshitting and is possibly just saying the right things.

For this reason I have not read any of the books and I've also ceased reading other's topics. I will answer each day with honesty and flow.

Thank you my friend,
Drew

[poppyseed]

Hi Drew

What I'm interested in is the unexplored, and maybe this process can discover it and I can rest in loving being with it.

Believe me there is always unexplored, it just never ends. Oh what fun :))

Thank you for your honesty! It gives me an idea where to begin…
Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something.
Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target. Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).

There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple, or any other fruit or object.


Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[mirrormoon]

Hey Rali,

Being a fan of ChatGPT, I am utilizing it for this.
I had a hard time initially grasping this concept. So ChatGPT helped me understand:

Rali is explaining the concept of "looking" in self-inquiry and direct experience (DE):
Direct Experience (DE): Noticing what is present, not imagining or recalling.
Knowing vs. Seeing: Intellectual understanding (knowing) differs from direct observation (seeing).
Components of DE: Includes seeing, hearing, feeling (physical sensations), tasting, smelling, and thoughts arising, but not their content.
Example: Looking at an apple involves seeing its color, not the thought of “apple.” DE focuses on immediate sensory input, not imagined experiences.

Example:
Knowing: Remembering or guessing the color of your socks without looking. Seeing: Looking at your socks to see their actual color.
Key Point: Direct observation (seeing) provides certainty, unlike intellectual understanding (knowing).

Question on DE:
Q: Could DE include the imagined taste of an apple? A: No, DE refers to immediate sensory perceptions. The imagined taste is a thought about the taste, not the actual sensation.

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

Right!

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

‘Apple’ is known as a label. There is color, and the thought ‘an apple’ arises, but there is no ‘apple’ there. There is only the DE/AE of color, when viewing the photograph.

[mirrormoon]

Love,
Drewbert

[poppyseed]

Hi Drew

Example: Looking at an apple involves seeing its color, not the thought of “apple.” DE focuses on immediate sensory input, not imagined experiences.

Example:
Knowing: Remembering or guessing the color of your socks without looking. Seeing: Looking at your socks to see their actual color.
Key Point: Direct observation (seeing) provides certainty, unlike intellectual understanding (knowing).

Yes!! I’m impressed! However, in future, if you have any questions, just ask me for clarification. We don’t need to involve “third parties” :)
So is DE and the labels around it clear?

‘Apple’ is known as a label. There is color, and the thought ‘an apple’ arises, but there is no ‘apple’ there. There is only the DE/AE of color, when viewing the photograph.

Is this your answer or ChatGPT’s? Remember, there are no right or wrong answers here, just what is seen at the moment. As a result my pointing changes until all is seen. The honest answers are the only guarantee for a successful inquiry.

Yes, “apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour (looking at a “real” apple), but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

Q: Could DE include the imagined taste of an apple? A: No, DE refers to immediate sensory perceptions. The imagined taste is a thought about the taste, not the actual sensation.

I said:

You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple, or any other fruit or object.

Maybe try this exercise with any object that you have access to :)

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Love
Rali

[mirrormoon]

Dear Rali,

Yes!! I’m impressed! However, in future, if you have any questions, just ask me for clarification. We don’t need to involve “third parties” :)
So is DE and the labels around it clear?

Hahaha, I understand what you mean about "third parties." The reason I did not ask for clarification is that we only correspond once per day, and that would have been a day corresponding to clear up what you meant. Through using chatGPT I was able to understand what you meant by DE/AE, but won't use it if that's what you prefer.

DE is the intuitive knowing through sensations. Labeling is the content of story telling and narratives.

‘Apple’ is known as a label. There is color, and the thought ‘an apple’ arises, but there is no ‘apple’ there. There is only the DE/AE of color, when viewing the photograph.

Is this your answer or ChatGPT’s? Remember, there are no right or wrong answers here, just what is seen at the moment. As a result my pointing changes until all is seen. The honest answers are the only guarantee for a successful inquiry.

This is my answer :) Honestly.

Yes, “apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour (looking at a “real” apple), but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

Super clear! :)

Q: Could DE include the imagined taste of an apple? A: No, DE refers to immediate sensory perceptions. The imagined taste is a thought about the taste, not the actual sensation.

I asked ChatGPT: "When I look at the apple photo I see the colors and a taste of the apple arises in my imagination. Is the imagined taste a DE of the apple because it is within my field of perception?"

For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Lighting incense, simply = sensation (touch)
Burning incense, simply = sensation (smell)
Pouring hot water, simply = sound (hearing)
Cold hands on warm bowl of tea, simply = sensation (feeling)
Looking out the window, simply = light (seeing)
Breathing, simply = sensation (feeling)

I should note that I've been practicing DE since I understood it yesterday and have subtly shifted into being with DE. In DE, there is no need for a self that guides and directs. DE is an intuitive knowing. What hinders the flow of life is my identity with the labels and stories. By being DE, the stories are not being told about what is occurring. DE is at peace with what is occurring.

This is clear, but stories do come and I am sometimes lost in the labels; lost in the should, could, ifs of self's perpetual narration.

Love,
Drewbert