Seeking guidance on Recognizing no-Self experientially

[NoMind]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand intellectually and conceptually on so called "self" , which is nothing but a primary "I" thought. And as any thought, it doesn't have any substance or solidity. It's just a thought, like any other sense objects , is perceived , and it comes and it goes. self doesn't exist.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am seeking guidance at LU to help recognize the real "Self" experientially . It's so paradoxical when "I" (a thought) looking for "Self" experience which is beyond thoughts. Hoping deeper level understanding will help "I" to settle down on day to day worldly affairs and relationships .

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Many times I feel I get it, understand it very well and many a times I feel I am still confused. I feel I am there but not there yet. I am looking for guidance which can help me to see where I am stuck and not able to move forward. I am looking for that Shift where "I" dissolves to let "Self" shine through. I understand it intellectually but need a push to experience it.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I read lot of Spiritual books - on non-duality, nisargadatta maharaj, papaji, Raman Mahirishi, listen to vlogs from Mooji, Rupert Spira and few other spiritual teachers. And I resonate more with Self Inquiry practices which is a direct questioning to understand What "I" means . I do regular meditations from last 8+ years.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Elad]

Hello, my name is Elad and I would be happy to do this exploration with you, if we see that it makes sense. Please read and respond to the following points.

1. During this process we will attend only to your own direct experience. We will not be discussing theories or beliefs or other methods, including from non-duality and etc. I will ask you questions and give exercises and you will look and answer me from your direct experience.

2. The two most important ingredients in this process are your wish to see what is true and your willingness to look deeply at questions, give wholehearted engagement to experiments/exercises presented to you, and report your experience here with 100% honesty.

3. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know or ask questions if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:


http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


4. For the process to be focused and fruitful, I like to make an agreement that both guide and client (i.e you and me if we do this together) respond on this thread every day, and in the case of special circumstances where we cannot, still touch space here on the thread to say so, the day before or on the day. In the same spirit, I work with people who have the motivation and availability to make this process a primary priority in their life for the duration of the cooperation. If any of this does not fit your life rhythm, style or preferences, please let me know and another guide will work with you.

5. This process is not about uncovering or resolving/getting help with shadow material. That might happen indirectly, but the process is focused ONLY on recognizing that there is no separate self in control of things. Knowing that, are you still motivated for this process?

Warmly,
Elad

[Elad]

One more thing. This process is not about recognizing a real self. It is only about seeing through the illusion of a separate self. What exist beyond that will be addressed here. Knowing that are you still interested?

[Elad]

One more thing. This process is not about recognizing a real self. It is only about seeing through the illusion of a separate self. What exist beyond that will be addressed here. Knowing that are you still interested?

Ups, typo. What exist beyond that will *not* be addressed here.

[NoMind]

Hello Elad !
Thank you for your reply . I understand what you said and is clear .
I am very grateful to receive your response and to be guided by you .
Am ready to take your lead to begin my exploration journey with you .
I will do given exercises and reply everyday as it is my top priority .

Thank you !

[Elad]

Hello Elad !
Thank you for your reply . I understand what you said and is clear .
I am very grateful to receive your response and to be guided by you .
Am ready to take your lead to begin my exploration journey with you .
I will do given exercises and reply everyday as it is my top priority .

Thank you !

Great! What may I call you?

Let's start.Looking only to direct experience here and now, what do you take to be "you?"/"your self"?

[NoMind]

Let's start.Looking only to direct experience here and now, what do you take to be "you?"/"your self"?

my body and mind together as ME. Cannot find a separate

ME

or

self

[NoMind]

Great! What may I call you?

You may call me Setu

[Elad]

Let's start.Looking only to direct experience here and now, what do you take to be "you?"/"your self"?

my body and mind together as ME. Cannot find a separate

ME

or

self

Hi Setu. It's normal to label the body-mind-complex as I/me. What we are here to look at is if there is a self that controls the body and mind, that can choose what happens. Let's make it more concrete. Please look in your direct experience, don't analyze but rather attend and describe what is seen:

Can you control thoughts?
Can you control movements?



Also, here is a little reflection to support the process of looking only in direct experience and an exercise for today:



Coloured Socks

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.





Direct Experience - Labelling Daily Activities


Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.

[NoMind]

Hello Elad !

Can you control thoughts?

From my direct experience - No , I cannot control thoughts. It pops up randomly from nowhere . I cannot chose or select thoughts. But what I notice though is - When I look at it, its going away, losing its grip., otherwise I find myself entangled and participated in its story.

Can you control movements?

At first, I thought I can control some voluntary movements, But in my direct experience, I observed that movement happens like moving hands, typing on the keyboard, walking, holding pen or coffee cup. I don't think I can control movements. Then how movements happens ?

Understanding your explanation on difference between Knowing involving mind and Seeing or Looking with Direct experience for few of my daily activities -
Eating sandwich for dinner - simply, TASTE
Hearing flying airplane sound - simply, SOUND
Hearing keyboard typing sound - simply, SOUND
Sitting on the chair - simply, SENSATION
Feeling the sensations in the body - simply, SENSATION
Thinking on what to type - simply, THOUGHTS
Looking at my coffee cup - simply, IMAGE
Holding almonds on the palm - simply SENSATION
Eating almonds - simply TASTE
Walking on the park - simply SENSATION (body movement)
Seeing clouds on the sky - simply IMAGE
Seeing Tree leaves moving - simply IMAGE
Smelling pancake being cooked - simply SMELL

I will keep looking things with my Direct experience.
What I noticed on my Direct experience is -
1. By labelling activities , my mind stops there. Its not trying to go further and elaborate it , engaging "I" to create thought stories . No more story on what airplane sound means or if pancake smells good or bad.
2. I observed a detachment between an activity and "I" , as I is not involved because no thought story .
3. I observed the same for thoughts. as soon as I label thinking as "thought", "I" steps back and lose its interest and its grip.
4. Activity happened , experience happened, without an owner to claim any of its experiences.

Regards !

[Elad]

Hi Setu! I just see I overlooked that you had responded, my sincere apologies!! This is a rare occurrence. Answer coming soon!

[Elad]

Hi Setu again, now I had the time to read and respond to your post. All sounds quite clear.

Lets look at some more things:

Can you find anything at all which is the self, the I?

Do you control attention?

Do you control feelings?

Do you control choices?

Even if there is a preconcieved "knowledge" about this, look freshly in direct experience and write what you see.

From hereon my responses to you should be once daily (at least) as appointed, except if something else is explicitly expressed.

[NoMind]

Greetings Elad !
Thanks for your response.

Can you find anything at all which is the self, the I?

On my direct experience, I am not able to find any entity "the self" or "the I", like I identify hands or eyes or legs.
I is nothing but a thought, which also cannot be found. But then also I find a strong feeling of "I" on my daily activities, feelings and communication.

Do you control attention?

With the strong sense of "I", even though it feels like "I" is trying to control attention, "I" cannot control attention.

Do you control feelings?

No, "I" cannot control feelings. Feelings get trigger on thoughts, and "I" cannot control thoughts.

Do you control choices?

No, I cannot control choices. As "I" cannot control thoughts, "I" cannot control choices which needs thinking/thoughts .

Thank you and Regards !

[Elad]

"On my direct experience, I am not able to find any entity "the self" or "the I", like I identify hands or eyes or legs.
I is nothing but a thought, which also cannot be found."

Right

"But then also I find a strong feeling of "I" on my daily activities, feelings and communication."

Is that a problem? If yes why? Why would it be a problem or wrong to have "a sense of I" functioning while it is known that it is not a separate self?

"With the strong sense of "I", even though it feels like "I" is trying to control attention, "I" cannot control attention.

No, "I" cannot control feelings. Feelings get trigger on thoughts, and "I" cannot control thoughts.

No, I cannot control choices. As "I" cannot control thoughts, "I" cannot control choices which needs thinking/thoughts ."

Your answers here could sound a little like logical deductions (= rationalizations). Not saying it is or isn't.

What do you see in direct experience?

[NoMind]

Greetings Elad !

Is that a problem? If yes why? Why would it be a problem or wrong to have "a sense of I" functioning while it is known that it is not a separate self?

Hmm, you made me think . For good. It is not a problem when it is known all the time that it is not a separate self.


Trying again to answer earlier inquiry questions -

Do you control attention?
Do you control feelings?
Do you control choices?

On my Direct experience , I am not controlling attention or feelings or choices. It shows up as experiences.