Can't tell if 'I'm' there yet

[inthewoods]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?

That self is created by the mind. It doesn't actually exist, it is just thoughts referencing other thoughts and even the deepest sense of 'me' is just a thought. The me is just a character and though 'I' feel like I have agency over that character's decisions, I actually don't. The senses give access to the world and to reality.

What are you looking for at LU?
I feel as though I have seen through the self and much of the time I can view the world from a perspective of no self, but more of the time, I seem to get caught up in daily life and I lose that sense of expansion. This is confusing, because from what I have read, once you see through the self it all falls away completely. Does this mean I haven't seen what I feel like I have seen? I don't really know. When I do some basic inquiry I can get into a feeling of openness very quickly and all of a sudden everything looks totally different but also totally the same. I am looking for help clarifying this and hopefully, help to find my way to live from this sense of no self.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

I am hopeful that it will lead to fully seeing through the self. To get there, I expect to have my assumptions and delusions challenged. I expect fairly direct pointings. I expect to get called out when I am using thoughts to answer questions rather than for reporting back direct experiences.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

I started meditating about 2 years ago, primarily through the Waking Up app. Through this app I was exposed to Loch Kelly and to Adyashanti, among others. I had some great meditation experiences and was really committed to it but was meditating for the immediate benefits and for the enjoyment of it. Eventually, I stumbled upon Angelo Dilullu and his Youtube channel and that was a huge eye-opener and I have found his videos and book extremely helpful. For the past year or so I have been more focused on inquiry throughout the day as a complement to my daily meditation. I am currently doing the 10 fetters with Pernille Damore on The Awakewning Curriculum.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Anastacia42]

Hi

First, if you're doing the Ten Fetters with Pernille, you probably don't need LU also.

Watch these & see if they resonate:

please:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

Then we can go from there.

Much love,

[inthewoods]

Hi Stacy,

Thanks very much for responding to this thread.

First, if you're doing the Ten Fetters with Pernille, you probably don't need LU also.

This is a good point, and I don't know the answer to this. I am more attracted to trying to figure things out on my own, so it is a bit against my nature to seek a guide like this, but Pernille, in her videos, strongly recommends a guide and since I do feel pretty uncertain, it seemed like good advice. That's where I am starting from, anyway.

I did watch the two videos, and both resonated, especially the OneSpaciousness video. I feel like I oscilate back and forth between open spaciousness (during which I am not thinking about things), and more of the time, being lost in a feeling of me-ness. When I am feeling like me, I definitely feel a lot of doubt, so for a lot of the time, I really wonder if I have had any kind of awakening. The doubt is very strong. But on the other hand, something has undeniably changed and is changing all the time. The way I experience day to day reality is not the same as it was. I could give lots of details about this but I am not sure if that's useful just now.

When I am doubting, it seems like such a stupid question - have I awakened yet? Like, if it's not obvious then obviously I have not. Also, I never had an earthquake type moment when the floor fell away. I had one sort of thunk moment when everything looked altered after, but certainly not instant clarity or anything like that.

I guess I will leave it at this for the moment, other than to just add that I am extremely motivated and spend much of my day feeling into this.

Thanks very much,

John

[Anastacia42]

Hi John,

Yes, a guide is nearly always useful in shortening & clarifying the process.

This is my usual introduction:

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.
Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

You're past some of what we will go through, but let's go through some basics, anyway, to help clear your doubts.

Loving,

[inthewoods]

Hello Stacy,

Thank you very much, firstly, for agreeing to guide me. I really appreciate you taking the time and I have no problem committing to daily posting. I have also read the disclaimer page and page on what LU is not.

How will life change?

Life will be more free-flowing with total immersion in the moment and environment. There will be much less time spent lost in thought. My interactions with people will become easier and more authentic. Less time wasted on worry about the future or regrets of the past.

How will you change?

I sense that there will be some positive changes. Less reactivity in dealing with other people and more honest interactions based on what is actually happening in the moment. Less selfishness. More honest and authentic living.

What will be different?

I will spend much less time lost in thought, particularly thoughts of me as a separate self. There will be much less seeking the good and avoiding the bad as everything is taken as it is.

What is missing?

I don't think anything is missing right now.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Please call me John. I am in EST

Thank you so much again for your time.

[Anastacia42]

Good morning, John,

I'm near Boulder, Colorado in Mountain time zone.

Your expectations are fairly reasonable. Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate "self," and there never has been?

Loving,

[inthewoods]

Hello Stacy,

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate "self," and there never has been?

I spent quite a bit of time with this today. At first, reading the phrase didn't cause any reaction at all. It felt flat, as if I had read some basic statement of fact, like, the sky is blue.

Then I tried for a while to dig into it to try to make something happen. I kind of fell into imagining major life events from my past and trying to imagine those events having happened without 'me'. This kind of led to basically just mind wandering and eventually, I realized I was just manufacturing lots of thoughts as a way to try to manufacture something meaningful. It felt kind of frustrating and not very useful.

After this I calmed my efforts down and fell into a state of presence. This felt really nice as it always does but I had difficulty switching from openness and not-thinking to trying to contemplate the phrase in question. I didn't want to pull away from that feeling of being so I started just repeating the phrase aloud to myself without trying to think about it. It felt really comfortable to say and to repeat and after couple of minutes I had a big smile on my face, almost laughing.

Then, I started thinking about how I would explain this sequence of events to you and that broke the spell and pulled me back, and then I got caught up with family stuff and was mostly not present for a while.

Now a couple of hours later, when I read that silently to myself, I feel a really pleasant tingling moving up my forearms as I sit here at the table. It feels quite nice and happens every time I imagine the phrase to myself.

Best,

John

[Anastacia42]

Hi John,

That is a LOT of thinking. I know in a way that's reporting the diligence of your observations, but just keep it simple.

That question just checks for fear. That's all

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:



Colored Socks



There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.



Here is an example to illustrate the difference:



If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:



• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.



• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!



Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.



For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.



Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that



We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..



Direct or Actual Experience is



Seeing

Hearing

Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)

Tasting

Smelling

Thoughts Arising (but not their content)



Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.




Loving,

[inthewoods]

Hi Stacy

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification

Ok, I understand. I will try to stick with direct experience from now on.

Best,

John

[Anastacia42]

Good. Let's practice that:


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[inthewoods]

Hi Stacy,

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Here are some examples of my direct experience observations today:

Writing in my notebook

Seeing the paper in the book, simply = image/color
Smelling freshly baked cookies from the kitchen, simply = smell
Feeling my weight on the chair and my hand on the page, simply = sensation
Tasting, no taste, simply = taste
Hearing sounds from a distant room, simply = sound
Thoughts about writing, simply = thought

Swimming

Seeing the bottom of the pool through my goggles, simply = image/color
Smelling no smell, simply = smell
Feeling the coolness and motion of water against my skin, simply = sensation
Tasting the chlorine from the pool water, simply = taste
Hearing distorted voices and pool sounds, simply = sound
Thoughts about technique, simply = thought

Driving

Seeing the road and surrounds through the windshield, simply = image/color
Smelling the aroma of my chewing gum, simply = smell
Feeling my weight against the seat, simply = sensation
Tasting the mint of my gum, simply = taste
Hearing the sounds of the cart motor, simply = sound
Thought about my route, simply = thought

Defrosting frozen food

Seeing the food in the microwave, simply = image/color
Smelling the coffee in the pot next to the microwave, simply = smell
Feeling the cold in my fingers, simply = sensation
Tasting the taste of coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the microwave rotate, simply = sound
Thoughts about the meal plan, simply = thought

Best,
John

[Anastacia42]

Good, John. Exactly.

Here's the next step:


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

[inthewoods]

Hi Stacy,

That was an interesting exercise.

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The second ten minutes felt truer.

2. What is here without labels?

Everything is here without labels, except for me.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labels don't affect the experience but they change how I feel during the experience.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

I was noticeably tense during the first ten minutes and noticeably more relaxed and feeling in flow during the second ten minutes.

Best,

John

[Anastacia42]

Good.. Really LOOK. With your eyes..

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,

[inthewoods]

Hello Stacy,

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

OK, I found a lie that is related to a professional origin story. The direct experience sensations I get when I relive this dishonesty are a heaviness in the lower jaw near the neck. A constriction or tightness in the front of my throat, almost like I was being very lightly choked and a tension across the top of my chest, above my heart.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example. Do you see that?

Yes, I can see the difference.