Is this it?

[Pajo]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? My understanding by this is that there is no real self. A have a long history of searching for the truth, I have understanding and insights into what is, I know what the books says BUT I felt that the real, honest, direct experience still missing. Something happened with me a few days ago reading the Gateless Gatecrashers. Maybe this is it?

What are you looking for at LU? I'd like to speak with Ilona (of course:), but seriously with somebody who can help me to 'validate' my experience or helping me go through the gate. I don't really need validation but I never had this what happened and. because it's so natural and seems so nothing and because my mind is so smart and knowledgeable I am 'afraid' that it is just an other trick. I am not really afraid but I feel it's a great opportunity to talk with somebody who knows.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? Ask me questions and try to expose if I, my mind wants to deceive me with this experience or it is real. It seems real. Because I have lots of knowledge 'I am afraid' that my mind can mimic this experience :).

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? Since I have my memory I was searching for truth. I believed in God from my childhood. In my twenties I became a born again Christian. Some real happened inside of me that time in 1987, when I became Christian. After 20 years in active and honest Christian life my whole Christian, family life collapsed (I can share details if necessary) and in the midst of that calamity somehow I got the realization that what is me, or what is my real nature is same like Jesus' nature, it happened in 2010. 'You are like Jesus' I called it, I wrote a book about it in Hungarian, in 2016. I helped lots of people in Hungary with this new and biblical understanding for more than 10 years, lots of Christian in Hungary realized this truth and it changed their life. After this I found Ramana Maharishi and other non dual masters, teachers and realized that on the level of words we all say the same but the experience might be different. I felt that my realization is more like a good, deep understanding with good pointers but the real, direct experience is still missing. I tried self inquiry. for years, the tantric approach, just name a practice and I'd say yes I did it, and still felt the missing piece. I helped lots of people but I slowly stopped doing anything feeling that I need help to go 'further'. A few days ago I heard about LU, I downloaded the Gateless Gatecrashers pdf (the books are on the way from Amazon:), I read the first 3-4 stories. I can relate with everyone in some way, but I feel I have the same 'problem' like Jamie. Yesterday reading the book I felt that something happened. Something but it felt like nothing, like a non significant, 'I don't know what is this', just felt clearly that there is no me (I don't want to convince you about this:), or the me is empty without anyone wants to be me. I cried, I cried in the bathroom, cried while driving the car, because of the realization of how lame and desperate my search was and after I was laughing in the kitchen, in the car, that how simple and obvious it is. There is no me. Somehow it is true now. I feel, ot it is felt that there is no maintenance activity to maintain myself, because no self to maintain. I 'feel' I don't need to prove it anyone (there are no one:), but what is strange that is feels like nothing happened, and it strange. So there where I am. One pitfall can be for me because of the knowledge I, my mind acquired that I, I mean the mind can trick me with this experience. I tested myself like I really wanted to feel the I, the me, and nothing disturbing happened. The thoughts or habits feels like indifferent things stored in the body (maybe?) and they just appear without an owner. It feels there is no compulsive force of anything like freedom for no one. Next day (today) morning it is still the same, it doesn't feel like a state, it's not a feeling. I liked reading for founding the clue but I lost that urge for books. I still love books, or reading but somehow it's different. So I think your guidance would be a great help for me to clarifying that is it clarity or not:) (I am a Hungarian-American, English is my second language, I hope I could express experience in a clear way. Thank you so much.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[indranet]

Hi, My name is J.P.

What would you like me to call you?

You have an interesting story, can you tell me how things are going for you now?

[Pajo]

Hi J.P,

Thanks for contacting me. You can call me Pajo, that's my nickname and how my friends call me. It's interesting that my initials also JP :), so it feels like I am writing to myself.

Everything is going in the same way as I described in my introduction. It feels that it's not a state, there is nothing to maintain, everything just happens effortlessly by itself. I feel good. It's kind a cool that I don't know what to do, I mean that I have no urge to accomplish anything and the same time I do lot of things (we are before a new business opening). Somehow there is no burden of thinking, there are thoughts but nothing heavy. It feels that thinking stopped, if I hear a conversation or I am in a situation there is no compulsive reaction to them as before. But it's not dumbness just of ease of isness, life is ising :).

[indranet]

Pajo.

That sounds very nice. I am going to ask you a few questions to try and pin you down a bit:)

Please watch this video and use it to highlight my questions, then answer each question separately.


viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660


Answer from your current experience.



Is there a separate self called Pajo ?


Is there a past or future?


How do you relate to your thoughts?


How do you relate to your emotions?



Has your relationship to other people changed?


what happens when conflict/ problems arise?


what is your relationship to life?


Are there doubts? if so please describe them.


If you are not the separate self who are you?



Try to be concise, It should not take a book to answer these questions!



J.P

[Pajo]

Hi JP,

Thank you for your questions.
Here are my answers from experience:

Is there a separate self called Pajo ?

No, there is no separate self and no 'not separate self' either, no self at all. Self is just a word pointing nowhere.

Is there a past or future?

No, there in no past and no future and no 'now' either as something. I can call 'now' that is actually happening. Past and future just thoughts or imaginations, in experience past and future doesn't exist. Such a relief :).

How do you relate to your thoughts?

After seeing that 'I' is just an empty word I felt that thinking stopped. That's how I can express it. No thinker thinking, just thoughts and it also feels much less thought. But I think it simply because there is no heaviness of the thinker anymore. Answering your question, I do not relate to thoughts. They just appearing and disappearing to no one.

How do you relate to your emotions?

Same 'relation' like to thoughts. Emotions are more diffuse, more felt in the body than thoughts, they can move 'me' more but no ownership of them, even if it's a strong emotion. They are emotions, but not 'mine'.

Has your relationship to other people changed?

Nothing really changed in general, but something subtle changed, like having a conversation which previously irritate me, and a constant comments were going on in my mind, is gone. It's just a conversation without labelling. I also experienced no reflexive reactions in certain situation like I had before. Even I could control my reaction before but now it's an ease there, it doesn't feel that there is a source of reaction, a 'reactor' there.

what happens when conflict/ problems arise?

No real conflict happened after seeing, but eg. when somebody seemed upset with me it didn't feel that that anger, or upsetting landed on me, it was like a one sided negative emotion. Somehow it feels like no involvement in conflict.

I don't want to give a super spiritual impression but I don't have any problem :). Nothing seems like a problem or conflict anymore. It really 'feels' that I am, me, or no one in the situations anymore. It all just happening by itself.

what is your relationship to life?

I can't tell that I have any relationship to life (or I don't understand the question). Life is happening, 'life-ing'. Sometimes I think or there is a thought about that 'how to life now?', it looks like I never lived but also no feeling that somebody have to live life and the same time all is just life itself. Simply life live itself. Of course it's not about saying this but this is how I can express.

Are there doubts? if so please describe them.

No doubts for now. I had some, that's why I titled my post 'is this it?' but somehow 'it' is known now that it is. My biggest fear or better to say suspicion was that, what if my smart, well read mind trick me. So I always tested and still testing this new experience. Even if I had a good understanding or insights, I always had doubts, I tried to be honest myself, I didn't want BS. But now something happened instant, subtle but something. It's not a state, doesn't change, it's not an emotion etc.

If you are not the separate self who are you?

It's a good question, honestly, I don't know :), but the same time there is no need, inquiry to know it. Somehow it sounds stupid but so comforting. It is interesting that in my whole life that was my main goal and quest, to find out who am I, and when it was seen that no one is there, every search for that meaning dropped. Of course I can use big spiritual words to describe who am I, but all sounds so stupid, limited and meaningless. It's somehow indescribable.

"That's all I have to say about that." - Forrest Gump :)

Thank you so much J.P.,

Jozsef

[indranet]

Dear Jozcef,


Beautiful reply.

I don't think you need anything more from me.

If you want, I can present you with the " official" final questions of LU and these will be reviewed by three other guides.

If not, that's fine also. It was a pleasure .

warmly
J.P

[Pajo]

Dear J.P,

Splendid, I am so happy to hear that. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much for your help.
Yes, please, present with me that 'official' LU question.
I'd like learn how to be a guide and help others with this direct method (mainly for Hungarians), if it's possible.

With much love,

Jozsef

[indranet]

Dear Jozcef,

Great! Here are the questions, take your time and answer them all in one reply.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

ANSWER:

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

ANSWER:

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days.

ANSWER:

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

ANSWER:

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

ANSWER:

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

ANSWER:

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

ANSWER:

6) Anything to add?

ANSWER

[Pajo]

Dear J.P.,

Here are my answers:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

ANSWER:

There is not, and never was in any way, shape or form any separate or non separate self at all.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

ANSWER:

What we call separate self is a thought, the ‘I’ thought. The ‘I’ thought itself is an empty form. The thought, any thoughts in itself is not an illusion, it can be experienced, eg.: I can hear the word ‘I’ in my head, it’s an experience. The illusion is the content of the ’I’ thought. The illusion is that the ‘I’ thought means something, somebody, an existing entity, but there is no such things in experience, so the ‘I’ thought as an entity is same like any fictitious character, non existent, never existent.
E.g.: the word or thought ‘tree’ is pointing to something existing. That ‘something existing’ is a bundle of experience of seeing, hearing, touching…This bundle of experiences are real, the word ‘tree’ pointing to that, but there in no tree in experience, just seeing, hearing, touching... What is real is the bundle of experiences that’s what we call ‘tree’. I would cautiously say that the ‘tree’ is real as experience but is illusory as an entity.

About the ‘when it starts’, it’s hard to say anything for me, because it never started, I can talk about it as a fictitious character but when a fictitious, non existent character starts? Like when did the barren woman’s child was born? (if I misunderstand the question please specify it, thanks)

From a different angle, in the early childhood after the collection of a bunch of certain experiences the ‘I’ thought just appeared out of nowhere and gave the impression of an existing entity. So the bodily sensations were mistaken as ‘me’ and the perceptions from anything else became ‘not me’, the world. Since then every direct experience cease to be direct (it was, and stayed direct of course), they became tainted by this ‘entity’ and they became the servants of the me, proofing that ‘I am’, me is real. But this all is just a description, also a story. Seeing, direct experience doesn’t need any explanation, or description.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days

ANSWER:

As I wrote in my introduction, in my whole life I was an avid searcher, searching for the truth was the meaning of my life. Sometimes I felt that I missed life because I was searching for the truth. Like seemingly playing with my kids but inside always being somewhere else, looking for the meaning of life, I couldn't be there in the actual happening. (Now I know that it's impossible, there is no fictitious character in the actual happenings). It was so sad, I am still in tears thinking about that :(. Beside of many good understanding and insight into what is, I always had a doubt, I felt I know everything but I still don’t have it. I tried everything, what I could. I felt that I was at the gate (I didn’t call it his way then) but I couldn't go through. Even a few years ago I started a page called ‘No one is there’, I knew, or felt that that is true but I did not experience that. So I’d say I was ready, or ripe, or desperate. The searching consumed me inside, but somehow I liked it, it was like you know that carrot is there, I see it, I smell it, it just question of time when I can reach it :). So when I started to read the Gateless Gatecrashers pdf, after the first few chapter it just happened. Suddenly it became clear that there is no I. The I is nothing, I am not behind the I, no one is there. First time it felt real. Ok, his experience wasn’t how I interpreted or imagined other people’s, like Ramana's realization, but it ‘felt’ real, and it was 'mine' :). I had a little doubt and I wanted you guys test me and prove it if it is fake. But first time in my life I started to see that it is real, it doesn’t need any proof, and no one can see it for me. But I really wanted you to ask and guide me. Before seeing, my source for answers was my knowledge, now I feel that I don’t know anything, and still, there is a fathomless source, the direct experience. Even the ‘I don’t know’ is a good answer if it’s a direct experience. I also ‘feel’ that this is a new beginning. A life what I never lived, a life that no one can live, it just ‘feels’ normal, simple.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

ANSWER:

It was somebody’s story from the Gateless Gatecrashers. I’d say if anyone from you could just said that Jozsef it’s over, there is no one there, that could finish it. I think I just needed somebody from a authentic source to say what is the truth. By the truth I mean that there is no I, no one is there, not something theory even true theory about something. I listened to some satsang Q&A, but it was always about a question about something and an answers to that. But no pointing really to the core problem. Of course it just seemed this way for me. After ‘seeing’, things just started happening inside me. I’d say clarity, effortlessness. Everything normal, natural. I can’t tell that any big spiritual experiences happened, but I can tell that I see, or it is seeing what is, simply.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

ANSWER:

All this faculties were tools for sustenance of the ‘existence’ of the I. Without an I being somebody or an entity it is clearly seen that there is no one there who can make a decision, who has an intention, or free will, choice or control. Even the desire for them doesn’t exist, and still everything is happening. There is no one who could say that a certain outcome could be better than what happened, it is all always what it is.

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

ANSWER:

There is no cause of anything. Everything, life just happen by itself. If I look really close I can’t even say that something happening, it is just no ones’ experience colored with so called happenings, like the blueness of the sky. It is just sky, or if we drop that word ‘sky’ (we don’t need a word for experience), it is just ‘my’ direct experience. What is, what is real is direct experience by none, no owner of happenings.

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

ANSWER:

We will open a new business soon. There are lots of things needs to be done by me. Before I felt that I had to think about every small details. Now I can tell that there is the same or better focus on details but without thinking of that details. An ease in all doings, really like no one does it and it still happening. Of course if somebody looking at me they might don’t see any difference, they could think that I work the same way as before but I see, feel the difference. eg.: I am not tired or bored doing boring tasks. Simply not labeling that one is boring and one is not. It's really interesting and not understandable experience that even if I use all my mental and physical abilities to focus on something and it still doesn't feel that somebody 'I' doing it. It's so freeing living with full capacity, I don't need to restrain myself because there is no one to restrain and still doesn't feel that I'm living my life and it exhaust me.

6) Anything to add?

ANSWER

This whole ‘realization’ or seeing is amazing. What I like most is that it is achievable, of course by no one, but finally the essence of spirituality, or non duality could be an everyday experience for anyone if one is ready and really want this. I told Ilona, that I found LU years ago, but I was scared of the so direct method, and it’s interesting that how ‘accidentally’ I found LU again. I can’t express my gratitude and there is no one to express :), but anyone who sees knows what I feel. Thank you for you all at LU. I always helped others around me with what I had before, with understanding, knowledge, etc, and now I hope I can help with what no one can have and still this is what everyone is looking for, this direct experience.

Thank you so much for all who kept this ‘Light’, life to shine.

Jozsef

(sorry for any grammar mistake or not adequate word order, thanks)