Looking for clarity in seeing no self is here

[Vittoria]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I understand that the self only exists when a thought of an I is here.
Yet this illusion is very compelling and mind identification is almost constant

What are you looking for at LU? I am looking for some help in seeing in direct experience what this means. I alternate between moments of more clarity and moments of "forgetting" and complete identification with thoughts. I hope that a direct pointing to it will make it evident, once and for all, that the self is just a thought

What do you expect from a guided conversation? To receive help in dismantling the self illusion! I hope that seeing it more clearly through an external guidance will help to relax the tendency of constantly being in the mind analyzing and judging experience.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I've been seeking for a few years now. I read some books(the most common), often watch videos on YouTube but I don't have any fixed practice. Occasionally I try to inquire

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[indranet]

Hello, my name is J.P and I would be happy to do this exploration with you, if we see that it makes sense. Please read and respond to the following points.

1. During this process we will attend only to your own direct experience. We will not be discussing theories or beliefs or other methods, including from non-duality and etc. I will ask you questions and give exercises and you will look and answer me from your direct experience.

2. The two most important ingredients in this process are your wish to see what is true and your willingness to look deeply at questions, give wholehearted engagement to experiments/exercises presented to you, and report your experience here with 100% honesty.

3. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know or ask questions, if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:


http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


4. For the process to be focused and fruitful, I like to make an agreement that both guide and client (i.e you and me if we do this together) respond on this thread every day, and in the case of special circumstances where we cannot, still touch space here on the thread to say so, the day before or on the day. In the same spirit, I work with people who have the motivation and availability to make this process a primary priority in their life for the duration of the cooperation. If any of this does not fit your life rhythm, style or preferences, please let me know and another guide will work with you.


What may I call you?

Warmly,
J.P

[Vittoria]

Hello J.P,

Thank you for your response and your availability to work with me! You may call me Vittoria.

1. Ok, clear.

2. My dedication is sincere. Being immersed into identity based thoughts feels more and more exhausting and painful.

3. Reading the second document you sent me I can see some expectations are projected onto this exploration.

More precisely at this point:

This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.

I can see that realizing no separate self is here implies realizing there is no one who can become more special/gain something extra. However there is a belief that this realization should bring a sense of relaxation and relief from the "contractedness" of the mind identified experience. And this feels like a very extra-ordinary possibility...

4. I agree to commit to this exploration daily. I will be quite busy with work in the next two weeks but I will try my best to keep some time everyday.

With gratitude,
Vittoria

[indranet]

Dear Vittoria,
It is an honor to embark on this journey with you. I notice you are in a time zone about 8 hours ahead of me. Depending on when you post, there might be a bit of a delay in my response.

I

can see that realizing no separate self is here implies realizing there is no one who can become more special/gain something extra. However there is a belief that this realization should bring a sense of relaxation and relief from the "contractedness" of the mind identified experience. And this feels like a very extra-ordinary possibility...

It is normal to have these hopes, but see if you can put aside ideas of what this might look like.
I think we should just dive in....

Can you describe for me how you know you are a separate individual called Vittoria?

[Vittoria]

When I look in the five senses I don't find direct evidence of a separate individual. There there are some sensations - a little contraction in the chest and some tension behind the eyes- that may feel like me because they are almost ever-present, as if they were constant attributes of a point of view that knows them. However if I didn't have the notion of a point of view that can know them they would still be floating there.

I think that the reflective capacity of mind is the main supporter of this belief.
It seems that there is something separate from experience that can analyze it and react to it.

Even now, trying to reflect upon this question... it seems that this thinking process that is happening is orchestrated by someone that is pondering different aspects, discarding some ideas and validating others.

[indranet]

Good work Vittoria,
See if you can look closer.

There there are some sensations - a little contraction in the chest and some tension behind the eyes- that may feel like me because they are almost ever-present,

Are these sensations different from other sensations that may originate from other parts of the body?

Without the thought that labels them, or claims to recognise them, do they in any way provide evidence of a separate you ?

Don't give a conceptual answer, take your time - be with these sensations and really get clear about what is happening.

Use the quote function to isolate the questions. Put your answer under the relevant question. It will be clearer to read.

[Vittoria]

Are these sensations different from other sensations that may originate from other parts of the body?

Well, no... they are just noticed more frequently. But they appear as any other bodily sensation that is present in my experience

Without the thought that labels them, or claims to recognise them, do they in any way provide evidence of a separate you ?

No, they don't. They are just sensations arising in the moment, no evidence of a self behind them

[indranet]

Well, no... they are just noticed more frequently. But they appear as any other bodily sensation that is present in my experience

This is good, you seem to be clear on this.

No, they don't. They are just sensations arising in the moment, no evidence of a self behind them

yes , no evidence of self.

. it seems that this thinking process that is happening is orchestrated by someone that is pondering different aspects, discarding some ideas and validating others.

Is there a thinking process being orchestrated, or is there just thinking happening ?

[Vittoria]

Is there a thinking process being orchestrated, or is there just thinking happening ?

Looking closer I guess I can say thinking is happening without my control.

I was carrying this question with me earlier when I went for a walk. I could see how the inner chatter was automatic. Any random stimulus could trigger a comment and then a chain of thoughts could form if attention was immersed in it. I could not decide what thought would pop up nor the direction that the chain would take. I also realized I could not decide whether I noticed the thought or I identified with the thought together with its formation.

[indranet]

Excellent observations !

Looking closer I guess I can say thinking is happening without my control.

I was carrying this question with me earlier when I went for a walk. I could see how the inner chatter was automatic. Any random stimulus could trigger a comment and then a chain of thoughts could form if attention was immersed in it. I could not decide what thought would pop up nor the direction that the chain would take. I also realized I could not decide whether I noticed the thought or I identified with the thought together with its formation.

Now look to see if I there is an "I" choosing to act. Is someone eating or is eating happening ?
Is someone walking or is walking happening? look to see if attention is a choice ?

[Vittoria]

Now look to see if I there is an "I" choosing to act. Is someone eating or is eating happening ? Is someone walking or is walking happening?

I have a packet of biscuits in front of me. There can be a desire to eat a biscuit maybe followed by a thought but the desire and the thought can be supported or not. The action does not follow the thought/desire necessarily. I can't know if the biscuit will be eaten or not. It is a weird feeling haha. The actions of taking a biscuit from the packet and eating it are very spontaneous and happen at their own timing without me choosing..!

look to see if attention is a choice ?

I was seeing this yesterday while contemplating thought activity. It was clear that attention was not a choice. If it was I would be able to remain alert without getting involved in the stories but I can't. Attention moves freely even when is very narrowly focused in the mental content... I guess it can be conditioned to move in different ways but again, no one is in control of its different movements

[indranet]

Yes , good observations.

.

it seems that this thinking process that is happening is orchestrated by someone that is pondering different aspects, discarding some ideas and validating others.

In light of your investigation, can the above statement be true?


In your own experience, can you find a place where thought originates?


Can your identify when a thought appears or disappears ?

[Vittoria]

Good morning J.P,

it seems that this thinking process that is happening is orchestrated by someone that is pondering different aspects, discarding some ideas and validating others

.In light of your investigation, can the above statement be true?

No, it can't be true! It happens by itself without a me or anyone orchestrating it
In these days of investigation I can say that the involvement with thought is less compelling

In your own experience, can you find a place where thought originates?

No. It seems to appear and disappear out of nowhere. Like an itch: one moment it isn't there and the next it is.

Can your identify when a thought appears or disappears

I will investigate more on this aspect... I'll post later what I find

With much gratitude,
Vittoria

[indranet]

No. It seems to appear and disappear out of nowhere. Like an itch: one moment it isn't there and the next it is.

yes, good.

In these days of investigation I can say that the involvement with thought is less compelling

Tell me more about this, what does it look/feel like , what's different?

[Vittoria]

Tell me more about this, what does it look/feel like , what's different?

I am more relaxed and calm. As I mentioned I am quite busy in these weeks because of a deadline for work which made me feel quite anxious. It is the first time I do this kind of project by myself and I don't have anyone supporting me or checking what I am doing is correct. This was fueling a lot of negative thoughts, failure scenarios, anxiety about timing and general worrying... Seeing that I am not controlling thoughts or how the attention flows in and out of focus relaxed a lot this sense of responsibility I felt about this project. I have this feeling of peace around it as if the process will take care of itself and no stressing is needed - because I am not in control. Worrying thoughts still arise but they are a lot less sticky

Can your identify when a thought appears or disappears

No, I am not in control of identifying when the thoughts appear or disappear. They just do