Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

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Albyn
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Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Albyn » Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:59 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The idea, the thought that there is a self that is in control of the body and the mind. That there is someone steering the wheel. The idea became entrenched in every aspect of our lifes it affects the way how the brain processes the sensations and sees the world. This self took over life and made it "mine" or related to me.

What are you looking for at LU?
The truth and understanding. I've been "liberated" for a day and a half years ago. I've convinced myself intellectually over the years that there is a self. Want to find out the truth. Confirm or deny the idea of self. I want someone to help me personally.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I need to take it apart logically and intellectually. I've convinced myself there is a self, created a whole theory about it and the books, articles or questions don't help anymore because the theory answers the questions posed. I need specific answers to destroy this idea I have created. Or confirm it :) guide in Czech language would be great if possible but not necessary.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Done 10 day vipassana twice. Finished the second one couple days ago. Regular yoga practice, I can teach it but rarely do. I regularly meditate. Tried psychedelics. Read various books, they seem useless for the most part now. Read Brutal Beginnings and Jed McKenna. Went to many types of spiritual/self development activities. Meditation is the best to me. Simple and effective. No need to confuse myself and complicate things.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

Bananafish
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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Bananafish » Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:33 pm

Hi Albyn. :) My name is Kento, one of the guides here.

As currently no Czech speaking guide seems t be available, I'b like to offer
guidance, if that's ok for you. I'm not an English native either, but from your
intro, I'm pretty sure that language won't be a problem for this kind of conversation.

First of all, please let me make sure that this dialogue is not about either
confirming or denying the idea of self or no-self. They are both ideas, and has nothing to
do with the inquiry done.

If you are expecting to be given a certain "answer" from me regarding the above, or even getting a certain answer
by yourself, this is not the right place for you, as I won't be doing that, or helping you do that.

If this sounds ok, let's start.
Please let me know when you are ready.


Warm wishes,

Kento
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
the date.
Email: swinganova@hotmail.co.jp
Modern Koan Project: https://www.facebook.com/groups/628553401153461

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Albyn
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:39 am

Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Albyn » Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:02 pm

Hi Kento. Thanks for offering your help.
Understood. The word limit didn't allow me to explain properly so let's do it now.

I've read Brutal Beginnings more than 4 years ago and when discussing it with a friend I became "liberated". The state lasted for the evening and the next day. After the second sleep the self returned and I've lived my life since then with the illusion. I've tried to return. Not to hard but occasionally I did. I read the book again. I read Jed McKenna and recently read the gateless crashers. I've done 10 day vipassana twice, I do yoga and read a lot of different philosophy and spiritual books. I won't read anything of this sort now, I know.

The problem is that I've created a working theory that explains my life, involves the self but also fits all the guides and articles I've read about this idea. Therefore, I'm confused. Either I'm right and I want someone to confirm it or I'm wrong (more likely) but I can't figure out why. I need someone to find the flaw in the theory. The hope is that I can realize the no self again. Or at least it will send me in the right direction.

The theory: the brain is real and has all sorts of capabilites. It controls this body and controls the mind. We all are unconscious and brain leads us trough live without our involvement. Through learned habits, patterns and all that. Here's the kicker: for the most part.
There is an awareness and awareness has the capability to override the brain. It's like a partially autonomous sub-program within the brain that can control the mind and the body. Not fully, most of stuff is still not available for the consciousness and most of the time this awareness, this conscious part of the person (=brain-body combination) is not active. It's there sitting, watching, evaluating only. But sometimes it can do something.
This is the self - the aware, the conscious part.
Biologically speaking, the consciousness has enormous power. It helps people or animals to learn, to evaluate, to change the brain by giving it feedback. This is what we do, this what the self is for. .
So the self to me is there. It's not an illusion, but it's a small part of the brain. We are part of the brain and the brain gave us certain autonomy. We can override the brain sometimes. When I have annoying thoughts I can stop them. If I am aware I can stop eating sugar despite being addicted to it. It's hard and doesn't work always but there is the option.
Meditation to me seems like training of this conscious part. It makes us more aware, it gives us more power over the brain, it helps to break the habits of the brain. It also gives us insight into the subconscious part and more control over the body. The yogis do it for example. They learned to control more parts of the body and the brain by lots of training, meditation and breathing exercise.
The brain still has the power though. If there's too much pain for example, it can stop the conscious part and makes us blackout. We sleep and brain still does its job. It can make us forget parts of out lives if it decides and can change our memories. But the self is there and has some, even though limited, power.

This is where I stand right now, basically. I know this is a bit of an unusual request but I hope you, or someone, can help me. I think I need to break this down logically because everytime I read any of the guides I can answer all the questions with this theory. So then someone asks is there a you? I say yes. Was there a you always? It was almost always there. Mostly in the position of the watcher but occasionally steering the wheel.

Let's figure this out. It's been bothering me for too long because I don't actually think this is correct since I've been on the other side, I went through the gate. I think it's just the mind playing elaborate tricks on "me".
Which is the part where I think might be the problem. Who's playing tricks on who. Is all this just brain creating life philosophy? Could be.
But what is consciousness then? Just the brain being aware of itself? Why does it need the idea of self in that case? If it's not there how can it do something? Why should only the idea of self create such a difference? Why would the brain create it if it doesn't do anything? I'd guess it does something and living without it is just another of brain's tricks, same as living with the idea.

Hope that makes sense. The last paragraph is more of a free thought process. Not sure if it's helpful. The previous parts are the real issue. I've created this theory over several years

Bananafish
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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Bananafish » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:07 pm

Hi. :) Just want to make sure that I can't help you with your own theories and memories.
If you could set it aside, we'd able to start a dialogue.

It's useless to inquire here while being loaded with a heavy load of theory and a kind of
past experience (however liberating it was), and I
could assure you that it will most likely fail. You can't logically understand what liberation is
until you actually know it.

So, please reconsider it, and (sorry to be blunt) I suggest that you find someone
else who can talk about theories and help you in that.

Hope this makes sense. :)

Kento
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
the date.
Email: swinganova@hotmail.co.jp
Modern Koan Project: https://www.facebook.com/groups/628553401153461

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Albyn
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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Albyn » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:12 pm

Well. Ok.
But what should I do then?
I can try setting it aside but everytime I read any of the questions from the guides I find an answer with self.
Everytime I look, I find the self.

Bananafish
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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Bananafish » Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:31 am

Where do you find the self now?
Could you show it to me, in any way?
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
the date.
Email: swinganova@hotmail.co.jp
Modern Koan Project: https://www.facebook.com/groups/628553401153461

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Albyn
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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Albyn » Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:51 pm

It's a program in the brain. Same as program for sensing the body or for tasting. Obviously I can't show it to others. I can show it to myself by stopping the brain from doing something I don't want to. Where is it? It's in the brain. Throughout big part of the brain but not all. You could say it's a feeling but this feeling can do stuff because it has awareness.

Bananafish
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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Bananafish » Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:23 pm

Obviously I can't show it to others.


What makes it so "obvious," other than a belief that it's obvious
it can't be shown?


If you were to cut open your head, would you be able to show
some entity called "self"? What makes you say so?
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
the date.
Email: swinganova@hotmail.co.jp
Modern Koan Project: https://www.facebook.com/groups/628553401153461

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Albyn
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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Albyn » Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:28 pm

I don't really know how to answer that it's obvious that the self can't be shown. It would be the same as showing someone a memory I have. Or a thought. Or a visual picture I see. Or showing someone awareness Just can't be done. It's not something physical as the brain. It's part of the brain. Like I said, I see it as a program. One of many programs the brain has.

No, I wouldn't be able to show some entity. For the reasons above. It's not a physical thing. It's a just a capability of the brain. Same as the brain can do other stuff. It can also create this self that has certain autonomy and servers as a feedback for the brain.
What makes me say so. Well, that's more interesting. Can't say really. Just makes sense based on experience. If I have intrusive thoughts I can stop them. If I want to avoid my addiction, I can. It's like there's two programs fighting to get stuff done. One is the brain and one of them is me. And I know I am just part of the brain but why would the brain fight itself? How could it even? In my view there's rather the autonomous, feedback giving self that has different qualities, ideas and patterns than the brain because of awareness, because of consciousness. And ideally, we should come and work together for common goal. Which is what lot of people haven't learned and that's why they're messed up.
Sorry, digressing... But yeah. That would be my answer

Bananafish
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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Bananafish » Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:38 pm

What if you didn't know (or haven't learned) all about memory, brain, awareness, consciousness ...
all about these?


Would there still be "self"?
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
the date.
Email: swinganova@hotmail.co.jp
Modern Koan Project: https://www.facebook.com/groups/628553401153461

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Albyn
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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Albyn » Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:10 pm

Not sure I understand. How could I not know about memory or awareness. If these things are not present I'm not sure if there's a self. That would be like animals. No idea if animals have self.

Anyway, I really don't know how you mean it. Can you please explain it? But at present the answer would still be yes. If I can stop my thought process then there's someone doing it.

Bananafish
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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Bananafish » Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:25 pm

Do you have to know about consciousness to be conscious?
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
the date.
Email: swinganova@hotmail.co.jp
Modern Koan Project: https://www.facebook.com/groups/628553401153461

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Albyn
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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Albyn » Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:39 pm

Sort of. You don't need to label it or name it. No need to explain it, to know how it works but to know what consciousness is you need to be conscious. Or rather, if you are conscious you know about consciousness.

Bananafish
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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Bananafish » Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:48 pm

No. My question is not about knowing what consciousness is.
It’s about whether you need to have knowledge about consciousness in order to be conscious.

Would you investigate this and answer just in yes or no?
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
the date.
Email: swinganova@hotmail.co.jp
Modern Koan Project: https://www.facebook.com/groups/628553401153461

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Albyn
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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Albyn » Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:58 pm

There's no need to know about consciousness in order to be conscious. It's not prerequisite.
Once a person is conscious, he knows about consciousness though. There's no other way.
The answer would be no if I understand correctly.


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