Looking for the Guide Taran

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:24 am

Hi Taran
Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? And make sure that the sound is something you will hear again, for the next phase of this exercise.
I’ve closed my eyes and listened for sound. I can experience the sound just as sound but as I do this I am aware that thoughts come into my head about what it is.... ie I notice I want to name the thing what’s causing the sound in order to tell you about it.

I can go back to the sound to just experience it but when I do that I’m not sure how to describe it to you without coming back to my head for a thought.

I’m not sure that you want thought involved because that’s not me staying with the direct experience but I don’t know how else to tell you about the sound without a description which attaches to though.

The best I can do is to say it’s the whooshing noise which comes and goes In the distance. It has different textures Densities and volumes to it. It has a level of constancy out of which changes arise and fall from time to time.

Have I made this task unnecessarily complicated? Should I just have said it’s the distant hum of traffic?

V x

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:55 am

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? And make sure that the sound is something you will hear again, for the next phase of this exercise.
I’ve closed my eyes and listened for sound. I can experience the sound just as sound but as I do this I am aware that thoughts come into my head about what it is.... ie I notice I want to name the thing what’s causing the sound in order to tell you about it.
Well done!
I can go back to the sound to just experience it but when I do that I’m not sure how to describe it to you without coming back to my head for a thought.
Unfortunately, we need some labels for communication, you could always type something like “sound (of distant traffic)”, the non-DE bit being in brackets for clarity.
I’m not sure that you want thought involved because that’s not me staying with the direct experience but I don’t know how else to tell you about the sound without a description which attaches to thought.
I am delighted to read this, as it sounds like you’re getting to grips with direct experience already.
The best I can do is to say it’s the whooshing noise which comes and goes In the distance. It has different textures Densities and volumes to it. It has a level of constancy out of which changes arise and fall from time to time. Have I made this task unnecessarily complicated? Should I just have said it’s the distant hum of traffic?
Just a little fine tuning...
How is it known that the sound is “whooshing” , “densities” or has “volume”?

What is the sound of hearing wind in direct experience?

Try the same exercise again, and let me know what happens.


Great start!
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:31 am

Hi Taran

Thanks for your reply
How is it known that the sound is “whooshing” , “densities” or has “volume”?
That seems to be part of my experience. I am experience the sound with a sense of it.
What is the sound of hearing wind in direct experience?
A sort of vibration
Try the same exercise again, and let me know what happens.
Something is vibrating in or around me and it seems to be in my heart and in my ears

V x

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:02 pm

Hi V

Direct experience (DE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’, and noticing the thought stories about them. So ‘looking’ is just plain looking at colour (image), sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value, right now. So please keep this in mind when answering questions.
How is it known that the sound is “whooshing” , “densities” or has “volume”?
That seems to be part of my experience. I am experience the sound with a sense of it.
OK so that "seems", suggests an unexamined belief. Please LOOK again.
Without adding thought, can these labels exist? or are they just different experiences of sound?

What is the sound of hearing wind in direct experience?
A sort of vibration
Can you find vibration in direct experience? Try the same exercise again in direct experience and let me know what happens.

Happy looking :-)

Taran xx
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:00 pm

Hi Taran
Without adding thought, can these labels exist? or are they just different experiences of sound?
I suppose because labels are words they must come from thought so I suppose really they are just different experiences of sound.
Can you find vibration in direct experience? Try the same exercise again in direct experience and let me know what happens.
Yes
Some (probably most) of the noises create sensations

V xx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:55 pm

Dear V
Apologies for the late response.
Without adding thought, can these labels exist? or are they just different experiences of sound?
I suppose because labels are words they must come from thought so I suppose really they are just different experiences of sound.
Yes all different experiences of 'sounds'. "Suppose" sounds a little unsure, so keep having a look at this in spare moments.
Can you find vibration in direct experience? Try the same exercise again in direct experience and let me know what happens.
Yes
Some (probably most) of the noises create sensations
OK, I get you. it is important to realise the difference between the DE of sound/sensation vs the DE of thought about a sound or a sensation.

Here is an exercise which points out the difference between direct experience and content of thought.

There are two types of thoughts:
(1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
(2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

So I invite you to do this exercise: Think of a cup.
Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Get a clear picture in mind.....

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup? Can you pour tea into it? Can you drink from it? Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup? Is there an appearing mental image? Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

The thoughts and mental images are real (direct experience) only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied.

However their contents, what are they about (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. In other words, the picture/idea that thought is ‘painting’ is the content of thought and is fictional.
Is that clear? Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Please answer ALL questions. And let me know how it goes.**

love
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Sun Sep 27, 2020 2:14 am

Dear Taran
There are two types of thoughts:
(1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
(2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

So I invite you to do this exercise: Think of a cup.
Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Get a clear picture in mind.....

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup? Can you pour tea into it? Can you drink from it? Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup? Is there an appearing mental image? Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

The thoughts and mental images are real (direct experience) only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied.

However their contents, what are they about (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. In other words, the picture/idea that thought is ‘painting’ is the content of thought and is fictional.
Is that clear?
Yes
Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts.

Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination.
Ok. Will do. Thank you Taran.

V x

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:11 am

Hi V
Super... just let me know how the cup exercise & watching arising images and thoughts go. I know I said 'for a couple of days' but if you can - do check in each day.
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:20 pm

Hi Taran
Super... just let me know how the cup exercise & watching arising images and thoughts go.
I have been doing the cup exercise again and also looking at things in life rather than thinking about things (like the cup) and I am getting confused. I know I said 'yes' to your question 'do you understnad' and I did actually understand but I seem to have lost it!

I have reread the cup instructions again but can't seem to re get it.

It might be just because I am tired at the moment. but Please can you try again with your instruction?

Thanks
Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:40 pm

Dear V

I think you are just tired!

Thoughts can come in 2 types.... thoughts may just be words or they maybe images.... but they are just thoughts.

The exercise is saying you might have words about a cup e.g. "my favourite tea cup is fine china". OR you might picture a pretty china tea cup (and yes of course both can arise.... but let's keep things simple.

So imagine your favourite tea mug/cup.... don't have it with you or that will confuse things.

Notice all the fine detail of your imagined cup, so you know it's size colour etc.

Is it possible to pick up the MINDSEYE IMAGE of the cup/mug? Could you pour tea into it?
Or is it just a mental image? Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

Thus thoughts and mental images are real, we can't deny their appearance, as a "direct experience of thought". But the subject they are about, the "content" is not real. The content is fantasy, illusory, and like your imagined mug they do not hold up to thorough examination. Does that help?

Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:02 am

Hi Taran

Thank you - yes that helped. (I was just tired)

I’ve got a sense of what you’re saying Ie I’m to watch my thoughts and see if they are real. So I’ve been doing that (with the cup and tea) and I can see my favorite cup in my minds eye and can I pour tea into it. I can also have sensory experiences of its volume weight and temperature. So I seem to be getting that part. Is that what you’re wanting me to do?

I’m Still Not sure that I know what you are asking me to do after that though. Am I to visualise things like the cup and pour tea into it and watch my experience? Or am I to do more than that?

I think where I’m getting suck or confused is your statement:
The content is fantasy, illusory, and like your imagined mug they do not hold up to thorough examination.
[/quote]

What do you mean by
they do not hold up to thorough examination.
and what do you wish me to do about (Or do with) that?

The quote above is taken from your paragraph Here:
Thus thoughts and mental images are real, we can't deny their appearance, as a "direct experience of thought". But the subject they are about, the "content" is not real. The content is fantasy, illusory, and like your imagined mug they do not hold up to thorough examination.
I get what you’re saying and I agree but I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be doing with that other than understanding what you’re saying. Am I missing something in the task?

Thank you
V x

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:56 am

Hi V

I see the problem..... what I was trying to get at was can you pour "real" tea into your imagined cup? Rather than pouring imaginary tea into the imaginary cup..... hence the not holding up to examination (you'd get scalded if you poured real tea into an imaginary cup).

The aim here is to examine thoughts, to see that "I had a thought about having a shower" is a direct experience of thought (not shower),.....as you read this you may have minds eye pictures of a shower, but it's not real, you can't use that image in this moment (even if it looks like a shower you might take later) so this thought content is fantasy.... because the direct experience of shower would be sound and touch sensations.

Hopefully, this makes sense? ... try re-reading the cup exercise, and then for the rest of the day, whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination.

Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:04 am

Hi Taran

Thanks
Hopefully, this makes sense? ... try re-reading the cup exercise, and then for the rest of the day, whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination.
yes that's makes total sense now.

I can do that.

SO really is it just simply that you are asking me to examine my thoughts and experience them as thoughts?

Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:48 am

Hi V
SO really is it just simply that you are asking me to examine my thoughts and experience them as thoughts
Yes. It is OK to have thought content, it's not that thought content is "wrong",but it's about witnessing it rather than getting lost in it. The aim here is to see that thought content is not real, and also learning to see what IS real in direct experience.


So today when you get some quiet time, note when a thought arises, note the content and see that it is mostly only an idea about what may happen, is happening or has already happened.


Even when you're thinking about something that could be seen as actually happening.....e.g. "I'm drinking tea" and there is literally a cup of tea in your hands, that thought is NOT direct experience of drinking tea.

In this situation the direct experience of drinking tea would be taste, touch etc.
plus thoughts (though content-drinking tea).


Please write up a couple of examples of what you have witnessed.
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:27 pm

Hi Taran

Thanks - that's all very clear thank you x

Please write up a couple of examples of what you have witnessed.
So.... I have my hand on the computer and am typing. I have a thought that I am typing - ie thought content 'I am typing'

Direct experience = clicking sound (thought - keys make clicking sound)
touch of wrist pressure (thought - wrist pressing down on computer)

Direct experience = lump traveling down my throat (thought - I am drinking fizzy water)

Is that what you meant?
Vx


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