No idea

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
TomnotTom
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:24 am
Contact:

No idea

Postby TomnotTom » Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:26 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of this intellectually. There is a body and there are thoughts and sensations here, but in terms of a self there is nothing but an idea - and not even a fixed idea. The idea of who I am seems to change based on the context in which I find myself or simply on mood or what thoughts are currently running.

What are you looking for at LU?
I understand that “I” is just a thought. I want to know this beyond a concept or momentary experiences of beingness. I seem to create a lot of tension through wanting to be seen a certain way or trying to prove that I am good or worth something. I can see that it is a futile and absurd pursuit to prove the value of something that isn't really there. So much energy going into protecting a house of cards. I want to let it fall but maybe I'm afraid or maybe just stuck in a pattern of thinking.
I want to let go and just allow myself to be.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I have started reading Gateless Gatecrashers so I have some idea of the kind of form a discourse might take. I am hoping to be challenged, to have my illusions exposed where they can be dissolved in the light of awareness. If that is a painful process then so be it.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I had a realisation of something that could be described as no-self as a teenager, 22 or so years ago. I realised that I wasn't my thoughts and that there was actually no substance to thought. I experienced a tremendous relief of letting go of believing all the bullshit that had been making me very unhappy.

That perspective shift has stayed with me - I kind of know it's all a dream but i have remained invested in it after a brief "high" from peaking through the cracks so to speak. I have maintained some connection to the "absolute", whatever that is, however it has always felt like a place that I can sometimes go when I am not here "doing" life.

I spent several years practising zen meditation and more recently have explored a bunch of stuff including different forms of psychotherapy, psychedelics, breathwork, bodywork and most recently consuming a lot of material around advaita and non-dual stuff.

I feel like I've come full circle really. I can remember feeling a sense of freedom after the insight as a teenager and looking at religious and spiritual people with a sense of confusion. Why do they need so much stuff to see something so simple? Somewhere along the way I guess I became enticed by the paths and fables and decided that I need to learn more and do it the “right” way. Now I couldn’t give a shit. I just want to finally let go of this crap I’ve been dragging around with me once and for all.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6946
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: No idea

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:03 am

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I can assist you with your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily.
If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
TomnotTom
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:24 am
Contact:

Re: No idea

Postby TomnotTom » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:10 pm

Can we agree on these?
Agreed!
Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
I feel like I am on a kind of merry-go-round. I keep seeing patterns repeating on a spectrum from joy to despair. One day I am a good person and the next I am a failure. A lot of fear of what may or may not happen, whether I am good or not. Perhaps this merry-go-round could be fun if I wasn’t so invested in each turn, if I wasn’t so afraid of falling off. I hold on too tight and feel a kind of terror.

I want to let go and just know that this is a ride and that I can’t choose it’s course.

I imagine if I achieved that then I would feel relief. It is exhausting to hold on so tight.

That feels true. I feel emotion as I write. Perhaps it’s too abstract. Perhaps I’m skirting the issue with pretty metaphors?

What are you hoping for to change?
Nothing really. Just acceptance. An end to the violence of of fighting what is - fighting myself.

What do you hope that should happen?
I hope for peace. I hope for space for love to emerge.

Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?
Is that a trick question? :)

Surely an image in the mind cannot have any relevance to seeing through the self-illusion?
Isn’t the self-illusion an image in mind?

I think I’m trying to be clever. I have a lot of practice at trying to impress. Seeking validation. Something to watch out for.

I have memories of experiencing something like what you describe. I have memories of a deep sense of being okay, of everything being ok as it is. Huge relief. There is a very subtle sense of it now, underneath the noise. It feels just out of reach. Maddeningly so.

User avatar
TomnotTom
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:24 am
Contact:

Re: No idea

Postby TomnotTom » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:13 pm

In my haste to respond I neglected to show my appreciation for your time and interest in my request.
Thank you Vivien!

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6946
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: No idea

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:23 am

Hi,

What name would you like me to call you?

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.
Perhaps this merry-go-round could be fun if I wasn’t so invested in each turn, if I wasn’t so afraid of falling off. I hold on too tight and feel a kind of terror.
What is this terror about? Is this related to the notion of there being no inherent, separate self who governs life? So something else?
I want to let go and just know that this is a ride and that I can’t choose it’s course.
I imagine if I achieved that then I would feel relief. It is exhausting to hold on so tight.
And what is it exactly that you are holding on so tight
That feels true. I feel emotion as I write. Perhaps it’s too abstract. Perhaps I’m skirting the issue with pretty metaphors?
Is there a particular issue that is bothering you, or the thing that you are skirting is the notion of there being no inherent self?
Nothing really. Just acceptance. An end to the violence of of fighting what is - fighting myself.
OK. This is a big thing. Just because the self-illusion is seen for what it is, it doesn’t follow that the seeming fight is over and it’s replaced by acceptance. For two reasons. The general push and pull (wanting and resisting) usually don’t dissolve when the self is seen through. This requires more looking after. But more importantly, our fight and lack of acceptance is not simply about a pattern of resistance, but rather due to ‘internal wounds’ we carry from our pasts.

Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an add-on narrative.

The personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through. All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. The falling away of conditioning can last at the end of the organism.
I hope for peace. I hope for space for love to emerge.
This is a very common expectation. However, peace is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about seeing that emotions don’t belong to anything. They are free floating without being tied to or anchored to anything.

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.
I have memories of experiencing something like what you describe. I have memories of a deep sense of being okay, of everything being ok as it is. Huge relief. There is a very subtle sense of it now, underneath the noise. It feels just out of reach. Maddeningly so.
OK. So you had a preview what it would be like if there weren’t any unresolved issues and wounds inside to push against. And yes, under all thinking there is some sort of peaceful silence. But it doesn’t mean that we get immunized, and we won’t experience sadness, anger, disappointment or any unpleasant emotions any more on the surface of our human life.
It’s not about not having half of the human emotions (the unpleasant ones), rather to feel them ALL freely, without the need to run away from them. Freedom lies in this.
In my haste to respond I neglected to show my appreciation for your time and interest in my request.
You are welcome :)
I seem to create a lot of tension through wanting to be seen a certain way or trying to prove that I am good or worth something.
The source of these are the wounds inside. These patterns might lessen when the self is seen through, but there is a high chance that they will stay, since these are conditioned patterns of thinking, feeling and reacting. But as I mentioned above, it’s usually easier to work with these after the self is seen through.
I can see that it is a futile and absurd pursuit to prove the value of something that isn't really there. So much energy going into protecting a house of cards. I want to let it fall but maybe I'm afraid or maybe just stuck in a pattern of thinking.
So you expect that the whole pack of card could or should collapse. But what has been built for decades, cannot fall apart in an instant. This is not some quick process, but a journey of a lifetime, an orientation to see life in a different angle, each day is an opportunity to discover a little more.

The thing is that it cannot be know in advance how it will be. Why? Because all expectations come on behalf of a separate self, who is always in a search for peace, happiness, lack of fear and suffering. We simply cannot imagine it, since we cannot step outside from the separate self’s perspective. We can only imagine it within the dream of me. The illusionary me is simply unable to imagine how it would be if it were discovered to be just a fictional character and not a reality. It can only imagine what it wants for itself.

Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
TomnotTom
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:24 am
Contact:

Re: No idea

Postby TomnotTom » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:33 pm

What name would you like me to call you?
You can call me Tom :)
What is this terror about? Is this related to the notion of there being no inherent, separate self who governs life? So something else?
I think the terror relates to some feeling of being flawed or insufficient in some way. Maybe the feeling is that letting go might force me to face the possibility that it is true. I suppose it relates to the notion of no inherent, separate self because if that is true then there is nothing there that could be deemed insufficient and no other to judge it against.
And what is it exactly that you are holding on so tight
I suppose it is the known
Is there a particular issue that is bothering you, or the thing that you are skirting is the notion of there being no inherent self?
The emotion that comes seems to be a mixture of sadness and joy. It arises sometimes when I reflect on the idea that I am not (good) enough and how much I have struggled in the past to be better somehow. The mixture of emotions comes from an understanding that it is all unnecessary because I am all that I am and whatever that is it couldn’t be any other way.
Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an add-on narrative.
This makes sense. I have done plenty of work with those wounds and continue to do so. If seeing the truth has no effect on this then so be it.
The personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through. All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. The falling away of conditioning can last at the end of the organism.
I’m cool with that.
Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.
Dammit! Ah well it was worth a shot :D
I’m even more curious as to what this whole no-self thing is really about since I obviously have no point of reference.
OK. So you had a preview what it would be like if there weren’t any unresolved issues and wounds inside to push against.
I’m not sure if it was that there weren’t any wounds, but rather nothing there to push against them, and so they ceased to be an issue.
It’s not about not having half of the human emotions (the unpleasant ones), rather to feel them ALL freely, without the need to run away from them. Freedom lies in this.
I totally agree with you here. I am committed to feeling all my emotions and experiences fully. Part of me would like to make it all go away forever but I know that’s not the way it works.
So you expect that the whole pack of card could or should collapse. But what has been built for decades, cannot fall apart in an instant. This is not some quick process, but a journey of a lifetime, an orientation to see life in a different angle, each day is an opportunity to discover a little more.
I don’t think I expect anything from the cards but I suppose I do have an expectation that it might be helpful to see that my house is made of cards and not concrete, and that there is something that remains if were to fall.
So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.
Ok, I think I can do that. I will do my best to drop any expectations.
Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?
Can I just clarify that you are asking me not to consume any kind of “spiritual material”? I assume its ok to read Ilona’s books and Liberation Unleashed related content?
I enjoy listening to “spiritual” podcasts like BATGAP but I will stop that too if it will help with this process.
Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?
Well you definitely deflated my bubble a bit :)
Thank you for the straight talk though. I appreciate that. I will try to be as direct as I can in return.
I felt some resistance initially, mainly because it triggered a need to look clever and to get it “right”. I can see that this is not going to help me with this enquiry so I will do my best to focus on just seeing clearly and dropping any expectations.

I am ready to admit that I know nothing about where this enquiry is leading to. It may not be all I had hoped for but if it’s true then I want to see it.

I do have one reservation that perhaps you can resolve for me. Could this realisation affect my ability to feel and express love for those around me?

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6946
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: No idea

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:54 am

Hi,
I think the terror relates to some feeling of being flawed or insufficient in some way. Maybe the feeling is that letting go might force me to face the possibility that it is true.
What you are talking about is a psychological thing. You have a deep held belief that you are flawed or insufficient or not enough.
I suppose it relates to the notion of no inherent, separate self because if that is true then there is nothing there that could be deemed insufficient and no other to judge it against.
Just because the self is seen through, this belief probably won’t go away. This requires a deeper investigation later.
Can I just clarify that you are asking me not to consume any kind of “spiritual material”? I assume its ok to read Ilona’s books and Liberation Unleashed related content?
I enjoy listening to “spiritual” podcasts like BATGAP but I will stop that too if it will help with this process.
It would be good if you could stop everything, except focusing on our inquiry. The more time and effort you put into repeatedly investigating the pointers I will give you, the bigger the chance to succeed with this inquiry.
I do have one reservation that perhaps you can resolve for me. Could this realisation affect my ability to feel and express love for those around me?
Whose ability are you talking out? The ability of a fictional, fantasy character, called me? Your question is based on the assumption that emotions belongs to a person, to an entity, and this someone feeling them, and as the result of this inquiry this entity might have a different relationship to its feelings. But this is all just a story. Emotions don’t belong to a me. There is no real person who could be affected at any way.
hank you for the straight talk though. I appreciate that. I will try to be as direct as I can in return.
Yes, I am quite straightforward and direct. Honesty is essential in this inquiry. If we want to see how things actually there then cannot BS ourselves :)


We are going to start to investigate thoughts. Seeing thoughts clearly is essential part of the inquiry.

It is very important that you never think or ponder on the questions. Rather you actually have to look what you can see in your immediate experience before any thought interpretation.

Please always be thorough with looking. Look repeatedly several times before replying.

What do you do exactly in order to think?

How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?


Please be careful not to think about these questions, but actually sit and NOTICE how you think, how you do it exactly. So don’t go to theories, speculations, philosophy, or any learned information. Just notice what is happening here now in the immediacy of your own experience.

Please spend a whole day investigating these questions. Look again and again and again. Even if the answer seems to be clear, look more.

This investigation is about persistent repetition. Looking at the same thing again and again in experience, what brings about the realization.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
TomnotTom
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:24 am
Contact:

Re: No idea

Postby TomnotTom » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:11 am

What do you do exactly in order to think?

How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?
I spent the day investigating these questions. All I can really say is that I don’t seem to do anything, the thoughts just seem to arise by themselves. If anything the thoughts seem to be “doing” me.

I notice that its a bit like dreaming. Sometimes I am in a completely different place and then I “wake up” to the fact that I was in a thought. Even then though there are more subtle layers of the dream. I’m looking for what is outside of thought but even the act of looking seems to be an act of thinking.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6946
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: No idea

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:58 am

Hi Tom,

You did a nice investigation :)
All I can really say is that I don’t seem to do anything, the thoughts just seem to arise by themselves
Do thoughts just SEEM to arise themselves, or they actually arise themselves, automatically, without any doing on your part?
If anything the thoughts seem to be “doing” me.
What do you mean by ‘me’ in this sentence? Tom, the separate person that is being done by thoughts?

So thoughts are telling a story ABOUT Tom.

But are you a thought?
Are you the story of Tom?


Or you are aware of thoughts, including the story of Tom?
Sometimes I am in a completely different place and then I “wake up” to the fact that I was in a thought.
Let’s look at what happens here.

When there is a narrow focus on the content of a thought, are you literally in a different place?
Or it just seems that way?

Are you actually inside that thought about that imagined thought-place?

When focus in immersed in a thought story, are you know here now?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
TomnotTom
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:24 am
Contact:

Re: No idea

Postby TomnotTom » Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:54 pm

Hi Vivien,

I cannot find any sense of ‘doership’ in the thoughts. I can’t say with 100% certainty that I am not creating them somehow though, at a very subtle level. I guess this brings me to the question of what I actually is. Perhaps I am creating thoughts but if they have no existence outside of the I, - this seems clear and obvious - then they must be inseparable from the I itself.

Perhaps I and thoughts are the same thing.

The ‘me’ is apparently an idea which exists as a thought. When I become very focused or absorbed in some activity, the sense of a ‘me’ that is doing the activity disappears. There is still something here though. I could say that this awareness is something greater than thought, but how can I be sure that this is not some other, more subtle layer of thought?

I could be a dream in the mind of another being for all I know.

How can I know what I truly am?

User avatar
TomnotTom
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:24 am
Contact:

Re: No idea

Postby TomnotTom » Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:59 pm

It's occurred to me since posting that perhaps the need to know what I am is just another thought. Something to add to the story of me.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6946
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: No idea

Postby Vivien » Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:46 am

Hi Tom,
How can I know what I truly am?
By using the questions as pointers to investigate your immediate experience.

Because of this, I would like to ask you to quote questions individually, and reply to them one-by-one. If you don’t do that, it’s very easy to miss some important pointers.

Remember, my questions are not just simple, everyday questions, rather they are pointers for you where to look and what to investigate.

So I would like to ask you to go back to my previous post, and investigate each question thoroughly, and comment on them separately.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
TomnotTom
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:24 am
Contact:

Re: No idea

Postby TomnotTom » Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:55 pm

Hi Vivien,
I would like to ask you to quote questions individually, and reply to them one-by-one. If you don’t do that, it’s very easy to miss some important pointers.
Makes perfect sense. Here are the results of my latest investigations:
Do thoughts just SEEM to arise themselves, or they actually arise themselves, automatically, without any doing on your part?
The thoughts seem to appear in the same way that sights and sounds appear in my awareness. In this sense there is no doing on my part. I sometimes have the perception of controlling the thoughts, or directing them.
If anything the thoughts seem to be “doing” me.


What do you mean by ‘me’ in this sentence? Tom, the separate person that is being done by thoughts?
Yes, Tom, the separate person is an idea. I can’t find him anywhere. Tom the separate person appears as a thought but when thinking subsides or is focused on something else this sense of identity diminishes or disappears completely.
So thoughts are telling a story ABOUT Tom.

But are you a thought?
Yes and no. As soon as the focus turns to me and what I am, all there is is a concept. There also appears to be something here which is not thought. In order for the thoughts to exist I suppose there must a space of “not thought” in order for thought to exist as a separate entity. When I am aware, there seems to be a space of no-thought between and around thoughts. In this space there is input from the senses - sounds, vision, sensations etc. It would seem that there is something here to perceive these sensations. This is the closest thing I can find to an I.
Are you the story of Tom?
It is clear that I am not the story of Tom. I have woken up some mornings and momentarily forgotten everything about my story and I didn’t cease to be.
Or you are aware of thoughts, including the story of Tom?
Yes, this space of perception I described earlier would seemingly align with this. If I can see my thoughts and I can see the story of Tom then I must be outside of them in some way.
Sometimes I am in a completely different place and then I “wake up” to the fact that I was in a thought.

Let’s look at what happens here.

When there is a narrow focus on the content of a thought, are you literally in a different place?
Or it just seems that way?
No, not physically. Even the most vivid thought seems to lack a certain clarity that this present awareness has. I am not literally being transported to another place although in some ways I can be.
Are you actually inside that thought about that imagined thought-place?

When focus in immersed in a thought story, are you know here now?
No, there remains something outside that thought-place. I can be quite immersed in a thought and still retain some sense of awareness of my physical surroundings. When I am dreaming of another place my body does not go anywhere.

Tom

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6946
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: No idea

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:04 am

Hi Tom,\

Thank you for getting through the questions individually.
Yes and no. As soon as the focus turns to me and what I am, all there is is a concept. There also appears to be something here which is not thought. In order for the thoughts to exist I suppose there must a space of “not thought” in order for thought to exist as a separate entity. When I am aware, there seems to be a space of no-thought between and around thoughts. In this space there is input from the senses - sounds, vision, sensations etc. It would seem that there is something here to perceive these sensations. This is the closest thing I can find to an I.
OK. So all perception, sound, color, taste, smell, sensation and thought are known.

But the question is if they are known by an independent autonomous entity, or they are just simply known automatically just as they happen automatically?
It is clear that I am not the story of Tom. I have woken up some mornings and momentarily forgotten everything about my story and I didn’t cease to be.
When you say “I didn’t cease to be” – what do you refer to exactly? To the body? Or to something else?
Yes, this space of perception I described earlier would seemingly align with this. If I can see my thoughts and I can see the story of Tom then I must be outside of them in some way.
When you say ‘MY thoughts’ – what is it that has thoughts?
What owns thoughts?
Are thoughts happening TO someone or something?
When I am dreaming of another place my body does not go anywhere.
So are you saying that you = body?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
TomnotTom
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:24 am
Contact:

Re: No idea

Postby TomnotTom » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:54 am

But the question is if they are known by an independent autonomous entity, or they are just simply known automatically just as they happen automatically?
It certainly feels like there is some part of this that has some autonomy. There seems to be a choice of where to place the focus of awareness. But there also seems to be choice within thought even though I see them as automatic and transient just like all bodily sensations.

I would say that this aware entity is independent but not entirely separate from thoughts and sensations. Thought and sensation is perceived by something (or no-thing) that is unchanging, it must be this way in order to be able to identify and create context for the constant fluctuation in thought and sensation. It is like the white space on the paper that is necessary to see the words.
It is clear that I am not the story of Tom. I have woken up some mornings and momentarily forgotten everything about my story and I didn’t cease to be.

When you say “I didn’t cease to be” – what do you refer to exactly? To the body? Or to something else?
I am referring to something more than the body. There is an awareness of the body and its environment. There is a knowing of aliveness.
Yes, this space of perception I described earlier would seemingly align with this. If I can see my thoughts and I can see the story of Tom then I must be outside of them in some way.

When you say ‘MY thoughts’ – what is it that has thoughts?
What owns thoughts?
I suppose I am referring to the point of awareness that is perceiving the thoughts. I suppose I could say that this “I” doesn’t really own the thoughts any more than it owns the sky that is visible through the window
Are thoughts happening TO someone or something?
Thoughts are happening, without question. They are appearing to some kind of observer. They are an entirely passive phenomenon however. They are not happening TO something or someone because that would imply some form of active interference with the subject. The thoughts react to themselves and sometimes the body reacts also. In order for any of this to be perceived I feel there must be something that is not the thoughts or the body. Otherwise there would be no perception of them as objects.
When I am dreaming of another place my body does not go anywhere.

So are you saying that you = body?
This is a tricky one! I think I need more time exploring this question. I want to say “no I’m not the body” because that’s what I’ve heard supposedly enlightened people say. But so far I haven’t found any real evidence that proves this in direct experience.

From this perspective here I see a form that is connected to sensations in my awareness. There is seemingly a barrier between the edges (skin) of this body and the other objects in my awareness, which in some ways makes it feel “closer” - like this side of the skin is me and the other side is not. All sensation seems to be coming through this body and not the other objects in my awareness.

There is also an observer of these sensations which suggests to me that what I am is not only the body, but encompasses everything in my awareness, like the white space and the letters analogy i used earlier. A space within which the form and sensations of the body can be known.


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests