What's here?

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dutton
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What's here?

Postby dutton » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:41 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
What I understand by this is that the sense of 'me' or 'I' that I had always taken for granted is actually, shockingly, something that is simply the product of an unexamined assumption, and that when examined closely turns out to be a total fiction. Wow!

What are you looking for at LU?

What I am looking for from LU (and Kay in a private communication has recently offered to be my guide me in this) is guidance from a person who has been through this journey and through the gateless gate, and who can be both direct and kind in helping me look and hopefully see.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
At this point what I expect is professional and patient guidance in looking correctly so I'm focusing on the right things and then to be given feedback to help me stay on track. I've followed LU for a couple of years now and done many of the exercises and been helped enormously. Just recently I had a very powerful 'aha' breakthrough reading one of Kay's comments to a gater years ago - and so I reached out to her to thank her and that's when she offered to be my guide, which I gladly accepted!

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
There have been so many different so-called spiritual practices engaged in over the last 40 odd years and although they were a lot of fun, they mostly just feel like window shopping now, not really a true engagement with meaningful change or seeing through the illusion of the separate self. I spent 10 years in an ashram in India as a young man. I had a powerful experience during an Enlightenment Intensive in my 20's. I've read upwards of 75 books on non-duality. I've listened to Tolle, Adya, Jeff Foster, Rupert Spira and dozens of the current spiritual leaders and they're all wonderful - but it feels like LU is so much more what I've been looking for and there is huge appreciation for people like Ilona and Elena and Lisa and Vince and Kay for offering something so simple and yet so powerful to so many of us well-travelled seekers. I honestly feel like I've discovered more in the last year or two at LU than in the last 40 odd years of seeking. Big appreciation here! Thank you for what you do, all of you.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Re: What's here?

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:58 am

Hello Dutton,

Welcome! Lovely to see you here. As you have read some of my threads, you are aware of the way I guide. This exploration is not about getting rid of something that is illusory. The idea of there being a separate self has always appeared...and yet there NEVER EVER has been a separate self as we believe it to be.

At LU we are described as guides and not teachers as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises, questions and some dialogue. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings about the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been, and with this realisation a shift in perception happens. You can’t just sit and ponder what we are exploring, you must apply the ideas to your life; see them in action…actually do the work (practical application) every day, day in and day out.

Here are links to information I would like you to read before we begin.

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/na ... f=4&t=660

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer, as well as the other links, and we can then begin the exploration.

With kind regards
Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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dutton
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Re: What's here?

Postby dutton » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:42 am

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer, as well as the other links, and we can then begin the exploration.
Hello Kay, YES i have read the disclaimer and all the links, and have figured out the quote function
Love, Veda

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Re: What's here?

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:26 pm

Hey Veda,

Many thanks or reading the disclaimer, links, and learning how to use the quote function.

Just so that we are clear, to have the realisation that there is no separate self, you must be 100% committed to seeing it. It can’t be a nice idea, an intellectual curiosity. You have got to pursue this as if you have no other choice. Check in and see if that is how committed you actually are.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Unless exercises given need several days to be accomplished; post at least every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know. If you wish to post every day, that too is okay!

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realise that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look like; what life will feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc. Could you please answer the 4 following questions in your own words:-

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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dutton
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Re: What's here?

Postby dutton » Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:54 am

Hi Kay,

Noticing an excitement here as we start the process! Yay!
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.
Yep, I've already unfollowed all my FB non-duality groups (except yours of course!)
How will life change?
I expect life to become even more relaxed and peaceful, more immediate. As I wonder how to answer this question I realize that in fact life has ALREADY changed as a result of engaging with the LU process over the last year. I got, fairly early on, that a central tenet of LU is "Stop mistaking your thoughts for reality - Try direct experience instead". And practicing that has been hugely rewarding. There was still an 'I' there, but in learning to catch thought as it was happening I stopped believing everything it was saying and to my surprise life started to feel more peaceful.
That peace goes away when I forget and get lost in thought but then 'I' catch myself and come back to direct experience and the peace returns.
How will you change?
Ha! A trick question surely? I expect to disappear and leave no trace behind. Well, in real terms I expect that the sense of 'I' that has been present in every waking moment since I was 2 years old to fade and be replaced by ________? Nothingness? Spaciousness? Love? Is-ness? I don't think I need to know
What will be different?
I really don't know what will be different - and I'm not sure I even care. That sounds weird perhaps, but I think what I mean is that I'm not doing this for the payoff, or at least not entirely. I'm doing this whole spiritual search thing because I can't seem to help it. It doesn't even feel like I'm really in control of it, it's just happening - I'm just the tin can tied to ts tail. Luckily for me I don't seem to mind (ha!)
What is missing?
Nothing is missing now. What was missing before was me showing up to do this because of some old thoughts/fears.

Wow - this was powerful just going through the process of answering these 4 questions. Thanks for the opportunity Kay!

Love

Veda

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Re: What's here?

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:34 am

Hey Veda,
Noticing an excitement here as we start the process! Yay!
Wonderful to hear! :)
How will life change?
I expect life to become even more relaxed and peaceful, more immediate. As I wonder how to answer this question I realize that in fact life has ALREADY changed as a result of engaging with the LU process over the last year. I got, fairly early on, that a central tenet of LU is "Stop mistaking your thoughts for reality - Try direct experience instead". And practicing that has been hugely rewarding. There was still an 'I' there, but in learning to catch thought as it was happening I stopped believing everything it was saying and to my surprise life started to feel more peaceful.
That peace goes away when I forget and get lost in thought but then 'I' catch myself and come back to direct experience and the peace returns.
Nice to read! :) Becoming aware of your thoughts and observing your thoughts is a major step in becoming detached from thoughts that are simply thoughts about thought, which, and in and of themselves, are meaningless. Thoughts either point to direct/actual experience (AE) or to thoughts about AE. We will go into this a little later.
How will you change?
Ha! A trick question surely? I expect to disappear and leave no trace behind. Well, in real terms I expect that the sense of 'I' that has been present in every waking moment since I was 2 years old to fade and be replaced by ________? Nothingness? Spaciousness? Love? Is-ness? I don't think I need to know
How lovely to be aware of this expectation! What a find! I loved that you looked back and saw that this sense of “I” has been there since you cognised it at 2. Since there has never ever been a you who is a separate finite self, and yet this sense of “I” has always been there, why would this change? You are aware of this sense of “I”…then you can’t actually be it. We will have a look at this, but later on as we move through this exploration.
What will be different?
I really don't know what will be different - and I'm not sure I even care. That sounds weird perhaps, but I think what I mean is that I'm not doing this for the payoff, or at least not entirely. I'm doing this whole spiritual search thing because I can't seem to help it. It doesn't even feel like I'm really in control of it, it's just happening - I'm just the tin can tied to ts tail. Luckily for me I don't seem to mind (ha!)
That’s terrific. Although going from your response to the first question….you are wanting life to be more peaceful and relaxed…so there is wanting of something to be different. Many seekers come because they no longer want to suffer and they no longer want to fear. It is the suffering that is the catalyst to desiring something different. To seeing if there is some other truth than what we are conditioned to believe. But if suffering is something that doesn’t afflict you at all...then you are already home and hearth!

When realising that there is no separate finite self…which is a seeing through of a core belief…then our perception of ourselves, others and life begins to change over time, in a good way. There will be a time of undoing other beliefs, conditioning and patterns…that is part n parcel of the journey…but as each layer is personhood is seen through, perception of what is becomes clearer.
What is missing?
Nothing is missing now. What was missing before was me showing up to do this because of some old thoughts/fears.
This can be a funny question. It is the feeling of lack that seems to drive the idea that something is missing…and this lack shows up in many ways. What drives the idea of lack is the idea that we are finite and need bettering. Once we begin to once again remember that we are whole and complete and never separate from what IS…this lack begins to fade away. And again...many years of believing in separation doesn’t poof overnight, even when realisation happens.

Okay, now we learn to become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is. You said you are already looking at your direct experience…but we begin as we mean to go on! Being clear about your direct actual experience (AE) is an important component of this exploration.

‘Looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. Actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value. The term ‘actual experience’ (AE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ without the thought stories. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

The following exercise points to what is looking at your actual experience.

I would like you to sit somewhere quiet and become aware of sounds. Close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? And make sure that the sound is something you will hear again, for the next phase of this exercise.

Love,
Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: What's here?

Postby dutton » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:34 pm

Hello Kay

OK, sound:
Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? And make sure that the sound is something you will hear again, for the next phase of this exercise.
One sound that I hear is the tick-tock sound of the clock on the wall.

Kay, you said something in your reply to my last post that has confused me and so I'd like to ask you about it if I may... You said:
I loved that you looked back and saw that this sense of “I” has been there since you cognised it at 2. Since there has never ever been a you who is a separate finite self, and yet this sense of “I” has always been there, why would this change?
What confuses me is when you say "since there has never been a you and yet this sense of 'I' has always been there, why would this change?" But I thought this process was all about "changing" exactly that sense of 'I' - well, not changing it but losing it altogether, seeing that it doesn't exist. You seem to imply that the 'I' that has always been there will continue on and NOT change. I know I must be misunderstanding you here - can you help me get what you're saying?
It is the suffering that is the catalyst to desiring something different. To seeing if there is some other truth than what we are conditioned to believe. But if suffering is something that doesn’t afflict you at all...then you are already home and hearth!
In my earlier days I certainly did have suffering, probably why I chose to become a psychotherapist. So over many years and in many relationships I have been diligently working to heal my non-existent self (that makes me laugh to even write this!) - however, it worked, not to change the self but to change the conditioned patterns of negative behavior that led to suffering, so I did end up happier. However when I found LU I discovered a deeper level of happiness or rather peace just by seeing my thoughts weren't reality.

Sending love,
Veda

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Re: What's here?

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:48 pm

Hello Veda,
I loved that you looked back and saw that this sense of “I” has been there since you cognised it at 2. Since there has never ever been a you who is a separate finite self, and yet this sense of “I” has always been there, why would this change?
What confuses me is when you say "since there has never been a you and yet this sense of 'I' has always been there, why would this change?" But I thought this process was all about "changing" exactly that sense of 'I' - well, not changing it but losing it altogether, seeing that it doesn't exist. You seem to imply that the 'I' that has always been there will continue on and NOT change. I know I must be misunderstanding you here - can you help me get what you're saying?
Direct experience of no self is not what LU offers…there has never been one…so how can an absence of a ‘no self’ be experienced? What is offered is the cessation of the illusion of an existing finite separate self. That sense of ‘I am’ is always with you, only you have attached all kinds of things to it - body, feelings, thoughts, ideas, possessions etc. All these self-identifications are misleading. Because of them you take yourself to be what you are not. So what changes is your perception of what that sense of “I am” is.
In my earlier days I certainly did have suffering, probably why I chose to become a psychotherapist. So over many years and in many relationships I have been diligently working to heal my non-existent self (that makes me laugh to even write this!) - however, it worked, not to change the self but to change the conditioned patterns of negative behavior that led to suffering, so I did end up happier. However when I found LU I discovered a deeper level of happiness or rather peace just by seeing my thoughts weren't reality.
Lovely! :)
Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? And make sure that the sound is something you will hear again, for the next phase of this exercise.
One sound that I hear is the tick-tock sound of the clock on the wall.
Okay! So remembering that actual experience (AE) is simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation and the face value of thought….

…I would like you to repeat the exercise and answer the following questions from you actual experience only:-

- How is it known that the sound is 'sound of clock'?
- What is it that says the sound is ‘sound of clock’?
- What is the actual experience of hearing 'sound of clock'?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: What's here?

Postby dutton » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:45 am

Dear Kay,
That sense of ‘I am’ is always with you, only you have attached all kinds of things to it - body, feelings, thoughts, ideas, possessions etc. All these self-identifications are misleading. Because of them you take yourself to be what you are not. So what changes is your perception of what that sense of “I am” is.
Oh, now I see what you meant - you meant that it's the 'I AM' that is always with you - and the small personal illusory 'I' starts 'claiming' this I AM as it's own, so to speak. So presumably the job is to separate out the two and see that the 'I' is an illusion but the "I AM" is not, is that right?

Now on to the exercise:
- How is it known that the sound is 'sound of clock'?
The sound is registered in awareness as the AE of sound/hearing. However the 'of clock' is a label that thought introduces so that's the AE of thought, not sound.
- What is it that says the sound is ‘sound of clock’?
What says that it's the "sound of clock" is thought only - so it's the AE of thought, not sound
- What is the actual experience of hearing 'sound of clock'?
The actual experience of 'sound of clock' is AE of sound/hearing first, followed immediately by AE of thought that supplies the label that it's a clock.

It was interesting doing this listening exercise - I realized that when one hears a sound (AE of sound) but can't immediately identify it, fear or alarm often arises because we're so used to every sound being labelled - the AE of sound that is not followed by the comforting AE of thought to identify it, creates alarm.

Thanks for this exercise - I love this AE world - it brings so much clarity

Love to you,
Veda

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Re: What's here?

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:10 am

Hello Veda,
That sense of ‘I am’ is always with you, only you have attached all kinds of things to it - body, feelings, thoughts, ideas, possessions etc. All these self-identifications are misleading. Because of them you take yourself to be what you are not. So what changes is your perception of what that sense of “I am” is.
Oh, now I see what you meant - you meant that it's the 'I AM' that is always with you - and the small personal illusory 'I' starts 'claiming' this I AM as it's own, so to speak. So presumably the job is to separate out the two and see that the 'I' is an illusion but the "I AM" is not, is that right?
Yes…however, this thread is not about disidentifying as one thing…only to start identifying as another thing. What you intrinsically are, reveals itself as the layers of personhood are peeled back. And although you have done work on yourself…there will still be layers of personhood that will come to the surface to be seen and released…otherwise you wouldn’t need to be here at LU to see through the idea of the finite separate self. This thread is not about learning what you are…but about beginning to unlearn everything you think you are…and it is in the unlearning that you begin to reveal yourself to yourself. Seeing through the finite separate self is a beginning and not and ending.
- How is it known that the sound is 'sound of clock'?
The sound is registered in awareness as the AE of sound/hearing. However the 'of clock' is a label that thought introduces so that's the AE of thought, not sound.
Yes..the AE of ‘sound of clock’ is AE of thought. However, for awareness to register sound, points to separation. There is no awareness OF something. There are not two. This will become clearer as we move through this exploration. For now it is sufficient to know that thought points to sound and then labels it ‘sound of clock’.
- What is the actual experience of hearing 'sound of clock'?
The actual experience of 'sound of clock' is AE of sound/hearing first, followed immediately by AE of thought that supplies the label that it's a clock.
Nice noticing that thought is an automatic labelling machine! :) And for this to change would mean that there is a you who is a thinker of thought. And this is what you are here to see through! :)

As noted, the interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, labelling and interpretation will always appear; it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear and overlay actual experience with. Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between actual experience and the interpretation by thought of actual experience.

The following exercise points to what I mean.

For this exercise you will need an apple or any other piece of fruit will do.

Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure is the actual experience of colour and the actual experience of thought.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience - what you know for sure and is always here.

The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: What's here?

Postby dutton » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:24 pm

So while inquiring, labelling and interpretation will always appear; it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear and overlay actual experience with. Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between actual experience and the interpretation by thought of actual experience.
Yes, I get this distinction between actual experience and thought about actual experience.
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
No there is not an apple here, there is only AE of colour and a label (thought)
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
No, apple cannot be found in actual experience. What can be found in actual experience is colour, taste, smell, sensation.
The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?
No an apple is not known - all that is known is colour, taste, smell and sensation (and hearing if you bite the apple) and thought.

(In relation to this exercise, I had an experience last week where my wife bought two round yellow apples. I put them in the fridge with the other apples. Later that day she asked me where I'd put the squashes. Turned out that what my thought had labeled 'apples' was wrong - they were in fact round yellow squashes. When I got them out of the fridge I saw that the AE of colour and sensation still remained the same - it was just the label that was different.)

Love, Veda

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Re: What's here?

Postby dutton » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:27 pm

Oops, sorry - I got too many quotes in the last post

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Re: What's here?

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:51 pm

Good morning Veda,

A lovely warm supposed winters morning here. I think spring has arrived a couple of months early!

I am aware that you are pretty clear about thoughts...but let's look at thoughts anyway.

Sit quietly for about 20-30 minutes and notice arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: What's here?

Postby dutton » Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:56 pm

Hi Kay,

Here's what I found:
Where are they coming from and going to?
No idea, it's a mystery
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
No
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
No
Can you predict your next thought?
Not at all. It would be like standing by the freeway trying to predict the next car to arrive
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
I wish! No, there is no control over which thoughts arise
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
No, there is no control over thoughts. However, this was interesting - it reminded me of the Abraham work (Esther Hicks). Their thing was "if you're suffering, think a better thought" and I remember getting a lot of benefit from this when I came across this work years ago. It actually helped me build a sense of distance from my thoughts by getting me to notice when I was having a negative thought and then shifting to a positive one. However this now sounds wrong because it implies that I had control over thoughts, which I clearly don't, so not quite sure what to make of this. Maybe the thought "this thought is negative" was connected by memory (which is a thought) to another thought "think a better one"? Not even sure if that makes sense. Or maybe it's as simple as the negative thought was random, and then the positive thought was also random, and then lastly, the thought arose that "I caused the shift from negative to positive". Can you help me on this Kay? I'm puzzled.
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
No, there is no control over thoughts, they just happen.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
No this is not possible either.
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
No, you can't stop thinking a thought in the middle - although what can happen is that a new and different thought can quickly follow the first one and that gives the "impression" that there is a causal relationship between the two thoughts, that somehow you "changed" your first thought to the second. But that "impression" of cause and effect is itself just another thought. in actuality it's still just thoughts without you controlling any of them. Just like cars passing you on the freeway you don't have any control over.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
No there is no organised sequence. Any apparent organized sequence is just another thought. Although I notice the thought arising that says that thought is particularly brilliant at giving the impression that there is logic and order and a thinker. But it's all a charade - it's all just thoughts upon thoughts.

Phew! My brain hurts after all that.

I must say that after doing this exercise I have a renewed appreciation for direct experience as an alternative way of doing life!

Great exercise Kay - many thanks

Love to you, Veda

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Re: What's here?

Postby dutton » Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:40 pm

Kay,

After further pondering, here's what I see:

If you say "I want you to think of an apple", the thought of an apple arises immediately, which makes it seem that I'm actually choosing the thought of apple. However I notice that if you just say "apple" the thought of apple also arises - and that seems less like I'm choosing the thought and more like just an automatic thought arising in response to the word apple. The fact that you also say "I want you to think of...." makes it SEEM like there has been an agent ('I') that has chosen the thought in response to your command, but actually the thought just arises automatically in hearing (AE) the word apple. It's that labeling machine again!

So now going back to "think a better thought" - first what happens is a negative thought randomly arises. This is followed by the thought "Oh, I need to think a positive thought". Then a positive thought arises that APPEARS to be in response to the command, but ACTUALLY is just a response to the thought/words "positive thought". Is that right?

No agent required anywhere!


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