Who am I?

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Iznick
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Re: Who am I?

Postby Iznick » Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:22 pm

So what it is that is losing touch with the now? A me? A person? Michael?
No. I had a good look at this in meditation, and what I noticed was that when I am in touch with the present moment, I am aware of body sensations and sounds etc, and my thoughts are focussed on the present moment - e.g. on feeling the breath - and have a kind of constancy to them, e.g. they keep returning to my intention for the meditation (feeling the breath, or whatever). Whereas when I lose touch with the present moment, I lose awareness of everything except my thoughts, and those thoughts are about things other than what is happening in the present moment - e.g. I start thinking about what happened yesterday - and they move from topic to topic more unpredictably. The "present moment" version of me does feel more like a person, but when I look closely I see that it's just thoughts and feelings, with no volition present.
Without referring to past, can you know who you are?
Without using thought, can you say who or what you are, really?
No, I can't. I can notice body sensations, sounds, sights and so on, but I have no way to know who or what I am. I can see my own body, so I know what that looks like, but to know that it's a human body, I have to think.

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Vivien
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Re: Who am I?

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:36 am

Hi Michael,
when I am in touch with the present moment,
Is ‘being touched with the present moment’ is controlled by someone? Is there someone making it happen? Or it happens automatically?

And what is this I that is other than the present moment and could be in touch with it?

Is there an I separate from the whole?

No, I can't. I can notice body sensations, sounds, sights and so on, but I have no way to know who or what I am. I can see my own body, so I know what that looks like, but to know that it's a human body, I have to think.
You are talking as if you were the body.

But is the body aware? Is there any part of the body that is aware?

Is the body the experiencER, or the body itself shows up AS an experience?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Iznick
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Re: Who am I?

Postby Iznick » Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:39 pm

Is ‘being touched with the present moment’ is controlled by someone? Is there someone making it happen? Or it happens automatically?
It happens automatically, but it's influenced by intention. So if there's an intention to stay in touch with the present (e.g. in meditation) then I "wake up" from being lost in thought and reconnect with the present moment more often. And that intention consists of thoughts - the thoughts that feel most like "me".
And what is this I that is other than the present moment and could be in touch with it?
Is there an I separate from the whole?
It feels like those thoughts about intention are the "I". And the sensations in my head, behind my eyes. But when I look closely, they are just sensations and thoughts, and I can't find anything that's producing the thoughts.
But is the body aware? Is there any part of the body that is aware?
No. The body is the object of awareness. It isn't aware itself.
Is the body the experiencER, or the body itself shows up AS an experience?
It's an experience.

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Vivien
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Re: Who am I?

Postby Vivien » Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:48 am

Hi Michael,
It happens automatically, but it's influenced by intention.
OK, let’s look into this.

There is a thought appearing ABOUT an intention, and then it’s followed by the action that the intention was about.
So one thing follows the other. This is all that we can actually notice.

But thoughts jump in quickly trying to make sense of this mystery called life, and asserts the idea of cause and effect. One even causes the other.

But in reality, there are no separate events. It’s one movement, without division.
But thought artificially divides the whole into part, thus creating the illusion of separation, and then making claims about cause and effect.

And of course, cause and effect can be useful concepts in everyday life, but nevertheless they are just concepts.
Actually it’s an attempt to create safety for the fictional me, by asserting I know how things are.

But this process is about investigating these assertions and be open to not knowing.

So just look closely, can you OBSERVE an actual link between an intention and the act that follows it?
Is there an actual link between them? Or it’s just assumed to be there by thoughts?

So if there's an intention to stay in touch with the present (e.g. in meditation) then I "wake up" from being lost in thought and reconnect with the present moment more often.
Can you see that this is a thought-based explanation trying to grasp this mystery and put into a box by making a logical conclusion that one is caused the other?
And that intention consists of thoughts - the thoughts that feel most like "me".
And how does the thought of “I intent to stay in touch with the present’ FEELS to be me?
Where is this FEELING located exactly?

And more importantly, who or what is making this intention?
Is there a Michael, a me making an intention? Or thoughts ABOUT intention just appear on their own, with the words of ‘I intent’?

Is there an actual real I here now, in this very moment behind this thought?


Look here now.
All discoveries can ever happen here now, in experience.
Never in story land.
It feels like those thoughts about intention are the "I"
Are you saying that the thoughts of intention = I?
Are you saying that you are a thought? Is that so?
And the sensations in my head, behind my eyes. But when I look closely, they are just sensations and thoughts, and I can't find anything that's producing the thoughts.
But don’t you believe that you are thinking those thoughts?
So how do think the thought “I intent…”?
How do you make this thought to appear?
Where do get the letters from?
How do you put them together into a coherent sentence?
How do you create a thought out of nothing? From scratch?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Iznick
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Re: Who am I?

Postby Iznick » Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:35 pm

So just look closely, can you OBSERVE an actual link between an intention and the act that follows it?
Is there an actual link between them? Or it’s just assumed to be there by thoughts?
No, I can't seen any such link, and yes, "cause and effect" is just a thought.
Can you see that this is a thought-based explanation trying to grasp this mystery and put into a box by making a logical conclusion that one is caused the other?
Yes. One thing happens in the presence of the other, but direct experience cannot tell me that one is caused by the other.
And how does the thought of “I intent to stay in touch with the present’ FEELS to be me?
Where is this FEELING located exactly?
I don't know. I can't find that feeling. I don't know where or what it is.
And more importantly, who or what is making this intention?
Is there a Michael, a me making an intention? Or thoughts ABOUT intention just appear on their own, with the words of ‘I intent’?
I can see that they just appear. I don't know why they feel like "me".
Is there an actual real I here now, in this very moment behind this thought?
I can only find thoughts and body sensations, and this mysterious feeling of "me". I can't find a distinct self.
But don’t you believe that you are thinking those thoughts?
It still feels like I am.
So how do think the thought “I intent…”?
How do you make this thought to appear?
Where do get the letters from?
How do you put them together into a coherent sentence?
How do you create a thought out of nothing? From scratch?
I don't know. It just happens.

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Vivien
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Re: Who am I?

Postby Vivien » Sun Oct 04, 2020 1:55 am

Hi Michael,
V: But don’t you believe that you are thinking those thoughts?
M: It still feels like I am.
V: So how do think the thought “I intent…”?
How do you make this thought to appear?
Where do get the letters from?
How do you put them together into a coherent sentence?
How do you create a thought out of nothing? From scratch?
M: I don't know. It just happens.
Michael, if it still FEELS like that there is a you who thinks, then it’s not enough to say that “I don’t know how it happens”. You have to look more. You have to really look.

Only you can do this. Only you can look. Nobody can look instead of you. No matter how much pointers I give you, it’s up to you do the work and look and investigate. I cannot do it for you. Nobody can.

So I’m going to give you only one pointer this time. And look at least HUNDRED times a day, again and again.
Always look AFRESH.

Is there a thinker in reality, here now? Or thoughts without expectation just happen automatically?

Be careful not just convince yourself intellectually that there is no thinker.
That would be totally useless. Just a new belief.
You have to see it for yourself, repeatedly.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Iznick
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:53 pm

Re: Who am I?

Postby Iznick » Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:21 am

So I’m going to give you only one pointer this time. And look at least HUNDRED times a day, again and again.
Always look AFRESH.

Is there a thinker in reality, here now? Or thoughts without expectation just happen automatically?
Thanks. Shall I just keep on checking, and then let you know if and when I notice something important or have some kind of realisation? I think I know what to do now, so it's just a matter of checking and checking, as you say.

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Vivien
Posts: 7037
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Who am I?

Postby Vivien » Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:43 am

OK, than let's do that. Let me when you discover something.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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