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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:14 pm

I hope you feel better.

One of the big questions is the "Do I really know?" Can it be proven right now?
Contrary to: Is it learned, aka appears in thought aka memory?
There is a lot of parroting going on. Something is read, we think we "know it", we think we "know" who we are, what kind of person we are and often simply repeat what someone else said about us and so on.
Does this mean challenging each thought? Yes. Each and every one.
I am aware of them through the senses. From insects, birds, my cat, people.
Yes we say we experience others via our senses. We can feel, hear, taste, smell, see something.
Is in the felt, the heard, the tasted, the smelled, the seen included what it is?
Or is there just the feeling, the noise, the taste, the smell, the visual?

To focus on direct experiencing is a valuable tool. It is equally helpful to just notice the story which is woven around each and everything experienced.
Take for example 'my cat', you can check what the DE is, what senses are involved and you can also listen patiently to the accompanying thoughts.
Seeing the colour form thingy labeled cat you will find it is impossible to just "see".
Thoughts will appear immediately, labeling/describing what is seen. The name will be there.
Labeling of the action of the cat (it is sitting, yawning) - thoughts.
Stories about the cat - thoughts/memory.
How you feel about the cat - thoughts/memory or labelling of emotions.
See how there is a whole story around cat? It is even impossible to think the word cat, without a picture/thought image appearing immediately.

Thoughts are not the enemy. They are not to be dismissed and got rid off as soon as possible. There is nothing wrong with them at all, and they are not a hindrance to what you are seeking.
It is observing them how they do their weaving that lets you understand what is or what isn't.

Try observing merely observing thoughts and check with DE to see what is really there compared to what is pure and only thought content.

Start with sitting in front of your cat and allow everything to appear, sense intake, feelings like warmth in your chest, thoughts.
Find out how colour/form becomes cat and how cat is turned into 'my cat'.

Play around and do it lightly, like a child investigates something, no idea what it is, no plan what it should be and just being open to whatever result comes up.
You can do it with lots of other things. How does colour/form become car? How does a sound becomes bird song? Play.

Share what you find.

Love
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:13 pm

Yes we say we experience others via our senses. We can feel, hear, taste, smell, see something.
Is in the felt, the heard, the tasted, the smelled, the seen included what it is?
Or is there just the feeling, the noise, the taste, the smell, the visual?
No, there is nothing of 'what it is' included in the senses. This is all added by thought, be it learning, memory, recognition. Nothing has any meaning without thought.
Start with sitting in front of your cat and allow everything to appear, sense intake, feelings like warmth in your chest, thoughts.
Find out how colour/form becomes cat and how cat is turned into 'my cat'.

Play around and do it lightly, like a child investigates something, no idea what it is, no plan what it should be and just being open to whatever result comes up.
You can do it with lots of other things. How does colour/form become car? How does a sound becomes bird song? Play.
Should have said I'm her cat LOL! No-one owns a cat! But, more seriously...
Looking at /being in my bedroom - just sights, sensations (textures), body sensations. Without thoughts /mental constructs, it's all just a kaleidoscope / tapestry of sensory data. Without thought/ recognition of items there is no separation of e.g. door from wall. Or cat from bed. Looking at cat, stroking cat... thoughts a big part of the overall experience, arising by themselves - recognition of cat, recognition of this particular cat, memories, memories causing me to expect certain behaviour from her etc. All very complex and hard to separate out the strands. Emotion arising (strong feelings of affection / love) - must be based on thoughts/ memories not on present moment??
Later...
Outside. Watching cat. Cat wanders off. Experiencing garden - sights, sounds, sensation of breeze on skin. Looking at plant. Thought labels 'leaf' and 'flower' - they become 'separate'. More thoughts about function of leaf and flower arise (photosynthesis, reproduction). Still, sensed experience unchanged, but overall experience includes thoughts and separation.

Through the last few days of this particular stage of looking, felt a few times like there was clarity. Like there is the real /sensed, then an overlayed complex web of 'mind created' things. Only fleeting.
Some reflection on this (again with the explaining)... We can't stop this 'overlay' of thoughts / interpretations. They are useful - they allow us to interact with the world, to use things etc. But maybe they went too far, or we took them too seriously?
Easier for this clarity to arise with external sensed things. Internal bodily sensations, including unpleasant (or maybe especially the unpleasant) are very loaded - the story is strong. Pain, fatigue... the basic unpleasantness of the sensations, trying to physically move into easier position (automatic)... but, then comparisons come up (unfairness, resentment) and stress/fear/anger (how am I going to manage to do my work today?... planning, rejigging plans, trying to manage things that I need to do). Thoughts like: It's all very well (the above clarity), but that's not how society works, and I need to do this work so I can keep this job so I can eat / have a roof over my head etc. etc.

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:24 pm

Nothing has any meaning without thought.
So true.
Thoughts add. It is always interesting, as you found out, what they add and that it is almost not possible to see, hear and so on something without this overlay of thoughts. In itself what ever is, just is, happy without add ons, explanations, theories, assumptions, the learned and so on.
Still, nothing is wrong with this overlay. It has it's merits.

So let's have a closer look at what thoughts add.
What if they add the word cat, or name a warm flush love? Not much happening here, they just label something which can be sensed.
.....recognition of cat, recognition of this particular cat, memories, memories causing me to expect certain behaviour from her etc. All very complex and hard to separate out the strands.
Here happens something quite different we could call it colouring of experience. Memories are added, thoughts of something labeled past, which give a certain overview, way to look. Expectations, thoughts about something which is supposedly happen in saomething labeled future. Likes and dislikes and judgement. Experience is sorted in and seen in a special way unique to each person. A certain way to see life, a way friends are seen, a way we see ourselves, it it strongly coloured and as you might already know doesn't depict what is very well.
Easier for this clarity to arise with external sensed things. Internal bodily sensations, including unpleasant (or maybe especially the unpleasant) are very loaded - the story is strong.
Oh yessssss.
That which is labeld unpleasant, unfair, not right, bad, not ok seems to be loaded.
Is it?
Here is something to really look closely.
So what makes something easier to deal with, clarity easier, what makes it more difficult?
All this sorting in, judging, evaluating - all happens in thoughts.
What if an experience is just an experience?

Pain - a physical sensation, right?
Here is your work :-) When in pain go into the merely observing thoughts modus.
Start when waking up. Is there pain the very moment you wake up? What thoughts are there when the pain seems unbearable, what when the pain is in the background? Where is the difference? What stories are playing?

Take your time and observe.
I am looking forward to what you find.

LOve,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:30 pm

Pain - a physical sensation, right?
Here is your work :-) When in pain go into the merely observing thoughts modus.
Start when waking up. Is there pain the very moment you wake up? What thoughts are there when the pain seems unbearable, what when the pain is in the background? Where is the difference? What stories are playing?
Thanks Jadzia. I've done some of this sort of looking at pain & my other symptoms before... I often find that this sort of focus on the sensations and the thoughts and emotions massively amplifies things (both the sensations and the thoughts and emotions). But, I've tried again, trying to bear in mind what I found in the last post...

Almost impossible to observe only the sensation - thoughts and emotions arise on their own. This is much more charged, as noted before, than looking at a plant, or my cat. At the top level I can see an obvious layer of thoughts added - thoughts about past / future. 'What am I going to do to make it better so I can manage X task that I need to do.' 'I'm never going to get better'. 'I'm never going to know what is causing it...'. 'It's not fair - I take better care of myself than my bf, so why do I have to feel like this?' etc. etc. I've learned a certain amount of acceptance over time - most of the time, now, I don't have thoughts that are this 'catastrophic'.
So, now, looking a bit deeper, and comparing with what I saw when looking at outer things...
- There's the sensation.
- The sensation is labelled 'pain', 'nausea' 'exhaustion'.
Then the bits that are more than mere labeling:
- Recognition of 'this' pain or fatigue. i.e the chronic pain - recognition of these particular symptoms. Like recognising this particular cat, not just 'a cat'.
- Then memories of previous occurrences - expectations, plans about what to do including doing nothing.


Other observations:
- although it's clear that the thoughts make the experience more unpleasant, as far as I can tell pain is inherently unpleasant (I mean, it's biologically wired that way, so the organism doesn't' cause further injury, do the same thing again and so on, so that would make sense; what's gone wrong with me is the pain signals keep coming, but there is no injury / danger any more...); it would seem the best I can hope for then is to only experience the baseline unpleasantness.
- trying to be ok with it (i.e. trying to let go / not resist) is often worse than just allowing it to be ok that I'm not ok with it (if that makes any sense) - otherwise frustration arises
- my symptoms generally get worse during the day, so unless I'm in the middle of a bit of a flare up they aren't there first thing in the morning and they are alleviated after a nap; I can wake up with pain (i.e. have it wake me up), so it's not only triggered or worsened by thoughts
- whether it is in the background or foreground of my attention depends on the intensity of the symptoms relative to the intensity of other sense experience on offer - for example, if it's mild, then focusing on a game or a TV program can push it further to the background; if it's really intense then nothing is strong enough to push it to the background and I just have to stop what I'm doing and breathe through it or sleep it off/down a level; if I'm in a fair bit of pain, stronger pain can knock it out - e.g. getting a piercing can completely knock existing pain out of attention fully for a while
- other pain occurrences don't cause much suffering / don't bother me in the same way - for example I had some minor surgery on my foot recently; there was pain and some limitation of movement but I didn't mind because I knew a. why it was there and b. that it would go after a few days. (these seem to be the critical differences with my chronic situation)

The biggest stories are 'Why is it happening to 'me'?' 'It's not fair.' 'Why can't I figure this out?' 'How can a I make it go away?' (short term management - e.g. what can I do to make it bearable enough that I can still go and do that social engagement - and long term management (don't think about the latter much if I can help it at the moment)). I know that these are all stories on top of the actual sensations, but the sensations alone also suck. I try to avoid 'What could my life be like if I wasn't ill?' as that has caused the most suffering in the past for me - like I'm missing out on the life I 'should' be having.

I realise much of this post is thought-content - and I am really sick of playing this thought content - it just arises over and over again. There is fear about letting go of it, as though if I do I'm letting go of any chance 'I' have of getting myself well. Only the bit above in bold seems akin to what we were looking at before. I can see that there are many thick and stubborn layers of thoughts and feelings here, but I'm tired of 'working on them' without much result.

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:36 pm

Beautiful description of what happens when pain is focused on.
....trying to be ok with it (i.e. trying to let go / not resist) is often worse than just allowing it to be ok that I'm not ok with it (if that makes any sense) - otherwise frustration arises
Oh this totally makes sense.
Fighting what is, what one thinks or feels strenghthens the merry-go-round of thoughts and frustration seems to come as odd bonus.
There's the sensation.
- The sensation is labelled 'pain', 'nausea' 'exhaustion'.
Just one tiny question: does the sensation know of pain?
Does it know it is pain?
Or is it just experience?

What is standing in the way of accepting pain as experience?
In your case it doesn't seem to be the 'natural' thing, "it's biologically wired that way, so the organism doesn't' cause further injury," since there is no shying away from soething needed.
Is there a who to whom the story belongs to? The my story?
Did you ever find an I, a self? Probably not. But to be sure have a look again. Is there a something located anywhere? Or is it only found in a story?
So to whom does the pain belong? (Please, don't get frustrated over trying to get rid of the pain with the 'There is no self, ergo there is something but it is not pain. This doesn't work. Pain is in some way pain and 'no self' doesn't magic it away.)
The biggest stories are 'Why is it happening to 'me'?' 'It's not fair.' 'Why can't I figure this out?' 'How can a I make it go away?' (short term management - e.g. what can I do to make it bearable enough that I can still go and do that social engagement - and long term management (don't think about the latter much if I can help it at the moment)). I know that these are all stories on top of the actual sensations, but the sensations alone also suck. I try to avoid 'What could my life be like if I wasn't ill?' as that has caused the most suffering in the past for me - like I'm missing out on the life I 'should' be having.
Yes, these are the kind of thoughts appearing and they do cause suffering.
There seems to be a self/body responsible for the pain, for the finding of a way out. Then there might be an understanding why it is difficult, and there might be a looking for a solution.
Thoughts disguise as different actors on stage, working with sort of different voices.
The voise of the solution finder, voice of recognition, the voice of reasoning, the teller of what is what, the voice of planning, the voice from the past, the one talking about possibilities/future, the judge, the voice of understanding and many more - yet all the same.
For a moment listen to thoughts and see them as actors on stage, give each voice/actor a suitable costume, way to move and watch the game called "My life" playing out.
It is easy to get sucked in and go with the story, hey, it is a great play! When this sucked in happens just take a deep breath, it is ok, and disentangle yourself again. The story is just a story and doesn't belong anywhere.

Little appendix:
The Why-me-question pops up quickly. What about the Why-not-me-question?
The Why-me implies a lot of tough stuff, either life really doesn't like one, or one is doing something wrong, in both cases one is somehow responsible for the mess.
The Why-not-me is more about life handing cards out indifferently. One either gets these or this cards.

Love
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:20 pm

Thanks for your continued help, Jadzia. Feels like clarity is increasing. But more looking to do...
Just one tiny question: does the sensation know of pain?
Does it know it is pain?
Or is it just experience?
No. In the sensation there is no knowledge, just sensation. The labeling and recognition come fast, as does the innate 'animal' behaviour of moving away / protecting. But they come after, even if very quickly.
What is standing in the way of accepting pain as experience?
Nothing. It's just an experience that 'I' don't like and don't want!
Is there a who to whom the story belongs to? The my story?
Did you ever find an I, a self? Probably not. But to be sure have a look again. Is there a something located anywhere? Or is it only found in a story?
So to whom does the pain belong?
Spent some time looking at sense of being / sense of self in the same way as I looked at the cat, the plant and the pain. When I wake up in the morning, there is sensation in the body, 'sensation' of thoughts and other sensed experience, viewed from a particular position / location 'in the body'. This is all just sensation. Recognition that this is a body and experiencing are almost skipped, as the mind quickly jumps to recognition of this body, this experience from over here, which is quickly labelled as me. But also assumed to be 'me'. Even in dreams one feels like a 'me'!
The Why-me-question pops up quickly. What about the Why-not-me-question?
The Why-me implies a lot of tough stuff, either life really doesn't like one, or one is doing something wrong, in both cases one is somehow responsible for the mess.
Ah, yes. 'Why me' makes you a victim, but sometimes that's how it feels. Story though. And also like it's your fault (I feel very responsible for this 'mess' - I feel like if 'I' can just figure out the solution, 'I' can get better and there's a weight of responsibility which is sometimes unbearable - it's an impossible situation, because despite years of searching there's no answer. I can't even know if there is an answer).
The Why-not-me is more about life handing cards out indifferently. One either gets these or this cards.
Yes, but I don't like these cards! Can't we re-deal? LOL? Although I'd probably get a worse hand!

Noticed that there's lots of 'selfing' around future, responsibility, consequences, will/intention and so on. I know that, in experience, future doesn't exist, it's just thoughts and emotions about something labelled 'future'. However, I have a very indignant voice saying: That's all very well, but it's not very practical. If I live as if there isn't a future, what's to stop me spending all my money in one day, doing whatever I want etc. etc.? Or not doing any work? What's stopping me is 'knowledge' that 'future' will come, and if I spend all my money now on, say clothes, a holiday etc. or don't earn any then very soon there's going to be a 'now experience' that involves hunger, cold etc. (no money for food, heating, shelter etc.) and 'I' will have to deal with / experience that - there's a strong 'I' / 'me' here. Similar things could be said about the 'past' and now. Cause and consequence. Maybe it's just labels added to the process of thoughts arising to protect the organism...

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:04 pm

I love how you really go for it.
No. In the sensation there is no knowledge, just sensation. The labeling and recognition come fast, as does the innate 'animal' behaviour of moving away / protecting. But they come after, even if very quickly.
Yes, sensation is just sensation and quickly the reel/automatism starts.
What we are interested in is the moment inbetween, that's your breather.
Nothing. It's just an experience that 'I' don't like and don't want!
Yip, likes or dislikes. This is ok.
All one needs is to notice them, and then breathe deeply and try to get the moment between thought and reaction. It is a tough spot, thoughts are racing, emotions appear, maybe physical sensations, too, but there is a sweet spot inbetween in which one can learn to sit. It takes a while, allowing thoughts, allowing everything else what appears - and not to fall for any of it. It is a bit like sitting out a storm, thunder and lightening. ;-)
When I wake up in the morning, there is sensation in the body, 'sensation' of thoughts and other sensed experience, viewed from a particular position / location 'in the body'. This is all just sensation. Recognition that this is a body and experiencing are almost skipped, as the mind quickly jumps to recognition of this body, this experience from over here, which is quickly labelled as me. But also assumed to be 'me'. Even in dreams one feels like a 'me'!
The story hits in quickly, but here it is the same there is a moment which is still free - look out for it. In fact there are moments like it during the day where the idea of self disappears, be on the look out for them.
However, I have a very indignant voice saying: That's all very well, but it's not very practical. If I live as if there isn't a future, what's to stop me spending all my money in one day, doing whatever I want etc. etc.?
:-)
There is no self, no future or past, just this moment. Since this never been any different and life happened and plan making happened, and solution happened, the same will go on when your overview changes.
Similar things could be said about the 'past' and now. Cause and consequence. Maybe it's just labels added to the process of thoughts arising to protect the organism...
Bingo! Just labels happening in thoughts. And yes, the survival modus is strong.

For now look out for the moments, times when the idea of self disappears into the background.
Share what you find.

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:28 pm

Hi Jadzia,

Fatigue symptoms are higher today (probably the heat) so will keep this shorter than usual (!).
For now look out for the moments, times when the idea of self disappears into the background.
I've been generally looking out like you suggested. I would say that there are still moments of clarity, and internal strife & stickiness of thoughts / personalisation seem less strong on average. Clarity felt strong and more frequent Tuesday/Wednesday. I keep going back to those 4 steps I used over the last week: sense experience (no meaning), uncoloured recongition (e.g. a cat, pain, an orgnaism), coloured recognition (my cat, this familiar pain, this organism... my, mine, me), further thought layering (spiralling stories). But I feel like clarity is less in the last 24 hours, and there's this sort of fear that if I don't keep reminding myself and 'thinking' the 'right' way it will all go away and fade. I suspect this is because there is some more looking to be done. I'm not quite sure where right now... perhaps the idea of control and personal/moral responsibility, and separateness. Any suggestions?

Thank you, as always!

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:54 pm

Let me rephrase the exercise:
Please try to notice each moment self/the idea of self slips in the background. We are not talking about clarity here, but just for catching moments which happen during each day several times.
When do you absolutely forget about yourself?
What are the situations? What are you doing at the moment? Do you control any of these moments or is whatever you are doing just happening?

I call this exploration a walk, it takes the time it takes and no hurrying needed. Joy, patience and playfullness/no pressure are helpful.
....perhaps the idea of control and personal/moral responsibility, and separateness.
Step by step. This might sound odd, but enjoy the process it has it's own beauty and everything coming later will be different.

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:06 pm

When do you absolutely forget about yourself?
What are the situations? What are you doing at the moment?
When your mind is fully engaged with something there are no 'self' thoughts. For example, in a story (on TV or in a book), when working, when drawing. If 'self' is a thought, and thoughts come one after another (can't have 2 at once), then if a sequence of thoughts are on something else, then they can't be on self. Of course, self thoughts sometimes come up in between the rest of the flow - e.g. if watching TV and there is a space in the dialogue you might think 'oh, I wish I had hair like that' or 'I don't like this actor', or 'I am watching' - self referencing thoughts. For the whole sense of self to be absent the engagement has to be complete - so no attention on body sensations, aliveness, no paying attention to the fact that you are paying attention.
When other people are around and the mind isn't fully occupied then lots of sense of self arises, and lots of comparison, judgement etc.
Do you control any of these moments or is whatever you are doing just happening?
Hmmm. Some hesitation here in answering - the bit that wants to be in control! But no, not controlling - for example, when I'm fully engaged in a work task, what I need to do just happens, including thinking about how to solve a problem etc. Then I quickly take ownership - 'I' did that - in the spaces between the concentration. Same with drawing - the observing and the interpretation and the corrections just happen, but in pauses I quickly take ownership again. With more passive activities - watching TV, reading a novel - it's easier to say 'I' am not controlling it - the attention is just held.
When there's something I need to make effort to keep my attention on - e.g. work when I'm tired/ in pain, it feels very much like there is a 'me' trying.

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:51 pm

This is the beautiful thing - there isn't only story about self, sometimes it is just about life happening, no control, no stress, the flow - already, always been. Meaning, there is nothing new to learn for you, isn't that fun?

Here is another one: Falling for the story or being without story/lifing is one of the two superior, more valuable?
See, we are talking about non separation, NO separation AT ALL anywhere - in the story clarity might be the more valued one, the lack of selfing, but is it really so?
Many strife for getting rid of the story, self, thoughts - is it really needed? Does this have to disappear before Gating? Does it have to disappear at all?
Some hesitation here in answering - the bit that wants to be in control!
Hm, please try to describe the bit. Where or what is it?
Then I quickly take ownership - 'I' did that - in the spaces between the concentration.
Good observation!
Claiming comes second.
What about explanations? When do they come and are they needed for decisions?

Looking forward to what you find.

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
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Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:25 pm

Here is another one: Falling for the story or being without story/lifing is one of the two superior, more valuable?
If you are completely falling for the story all of the time then you don't know that it is story. We are looking for what is real vs. what is story, so surely there is value to some of this perspective, otherwise what are we doing? There has to be more value to something other than living in ignorance inside the story full time, otherwise why?
Many strife for getting rid of the story, self, thoughts - is it really needed? Does this have to disappear before Gating? Does it have to disappear at all?
I don't expect the story to disappear, and I expect to still get lost in the story, but not all the time. Or maybe not mind the story, or be ok with it - although those are also thoughts inside the story I suppose. Maybe it's a shift to a bigger, more expansive story?
See, we are talking about non separation, NO separation AT ALL anywhere
I don't really understand here...
- in the story clarity might be the more valued one, the lack of selfing, but is it really so?
I don't really know. I thought so. I don't really know where/ how to look here.
Some hesitation here in answering - the bit that wants to be in control!
Hm, please try to describe the bit. Where or what is it?
I'm not sure. It's maybe a mixture of thoughts and emotions. Thoughts that are geared towards protecting the organism. Also thoughts geared towards protecting the supposed 'self'. But also thoughts that want to arrange the world so it gives rise to only positive experiences (impossible). Control is a difficult one - it's a never-ending impossible job that the 'mind' is trying to do - it's hard to let go of (fear of lack of control) but also you want to let go of it because it's exhausting and only slightly effective at best. I think maybe the bit that wants control is really centred around the fear - fear of what will happen if you 'lose' control (even though you probably never had it).
Claiming comes second.
What about explanations? When do they come and are they needed for decisions?
So, when a decision happens, thoughts about the, let's say, 2 options happen. Thoughts which apparently evaluate the merits and drawbacks of both including emotional factors. It feels like 'I' am making the decision, but the decision is happening in thoughts, and even in the subconscious. It feels like there is a choice and a chooser and that either outcome could be chosen, but perhaps, based on available information there is only one choice that this organism in this moment could make. But it doesn't feel like that. This is all conjecture. It's very hard to see what's really happening.
Explanations happen when weighing and justifying the decision. It's not clear what they are for. They are part of the narration perhaps - just like a thought says 'my foot itches' - it's pointless/superfluous to requirement as there is already awareness of the foot itching. Perhaps explanations and narration is a way for the organism to feel comfortable and in control /understanding of what is happening.

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Jadzia
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Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:46 pm

If you are completely falling for the story all of the time then you don't know that it is story. We are looking for what is real vs. what is story, so surely there is value to some of this perspective, otherwise what are we doing? There has to be more value to something other than living in ignorance inside the story full time, otherwise why?
The story itself is just a story and hasn't any power - it is the belief in thoughts/story which makes it sticky. As long as one is around story will be there and that never is the problem.
There is no bigger story needed, just a shift in perspective, another overview.
'm not sure. It's maybe a mixture of thoughts and emotions. Thoughts that are geared towards protecting the organism. Also thoughts geared towards protecting the supposed 'self'. But also thoughts that want to arrange the world so it gives rise to only positive experiences (impossible). Control is a difficult one - it's a never-ending impossible job that the 'mind' is trying to do - it's hard to let go of (fear of lack of control) but also you want to let go of it because it's exhausting and only slightly effective at best. I think maybe the bit that wants control is really centred around the fear - fear of what will happen if you 'lose' control (even though you probably never had it).
So that what is in control is a mixture of thoughts and emotion, this sounds rather like the means to control but not what is in control. For control to exist there must be a controler, an entity that controls, or? Is there one?
So, when a decision happens, thoughts about the, let's say, 2 options happen.
Please do the following, just do it, quickly and done. No reading on.
Say a word out loud!



Was there a choosing of the word?
Was there a pro and con to choose this special word?
Is there an explanation why it is this word and none other? When did these thoughts appear?

Love,
Jadzia

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YGirl
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:37 pm

Re: Ready!

Postby YGirl » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:14 pm

So that what is in control is a mixture of thoughts and emotion, this sounds rather like the means to control but not what is in control.
Yes, that makes sense.
For control to exist there must be a controler, an entity that controls, or?
Does there? For breathing to exist there doesn't need to be a breather - it just happens...
Maybe we need to clarify what we mean by 'control'. I don't mean complete control, over the whole of 'my' life. But, for example, control over aspects that allow for choices. For example, this organism has 'control' over what things to do today and in what order, what to eat etc. within certain parameters. There can't be control over all of the variables - even thought I often try to. Let's take today as an example... I had certain work tasks on my list and a few other things to do, and a few options in the fridge for what to have for lunch (those options made available by earlier 'choices' on my part during the grocery shop), plus a few things I wanted to do. I felt quite well yesterday, so expected to be able to do all of these tasks. However, I had a bad night and woke up with lots of symptoms (not in my control). But I had choice during the day as to how many of the work tasks to try and push through, what to eat at lunchtime, what I could do to try to minimize the pain, fatigue and nausea and was able to make choices to downgrade some of my other tasks.
Is there one?
It often feels/seems like there is. But I realise that that doesn't mean there actually is, in reality. I can see in my example above that many of the apparent 'choices' sort of made themselves based on the obvious routes.
Say a word out loud!
Was there a choosing of the word?
Was there a pro and con to choose this special word?
Is there an explanation why it is this word and none other? When did these thoughts appear?
A random word just came into my head (bus-stop). There was no choosing. It was a very simple task so happened pretty much instantaneously. There was no explanation - I have no idea where it came from!

Here, the 'choice' has no consequences, so it doesn't matter which word is picked (it doesn't matter, either outside of the story, or in the story). It is completely spontaneous with no reasoning or evaluation of the options required.

I'd like to look at a choice that often seems difficult for 'me' to make... The scenario here is that there is a social engagement that I'm supposed to go to in the evening. I'm not feeling great, so do I take part or not? There is no middle ground option - once I go there is a commitment. There is a choice here... I don't feel so unwell that there is no choice but to not go (which sometimes happens). If I go, there will be some enjoyment and I won't be 'letting people down', but it will be more difficult for me to take part / concentrate than it is on a better day, or for other people. I will also likely feel worse the next day. If I don't go, I will feel guilty for breaking the commitment, and might feel a bit fed up during the evening, when my partner is taking part in the aforementioned social engagement. However, I will have a restful evening, and will likely be able to have a 'normal' day the next day and generally feel better over the following days.
So, here there is lots of thinking and reasoning happening, apparently before the choice is made. And explanation and justification to myself and others after it is made. There is a period of time where it seems that it could go either way, so it seems like there is choosing. Maybe, on any given occurrence of this, the variables could only lead to one outcome and until the choice happens I don't know what it is, so it seems like there are 2 possibilities. If that's the case, then maybe it is easier to see that there is no 'chooser'. And by extension, no controller, since control seems to be made up of apparent choices. However, the way I think affects the severity of my symptoms, so even the process of 'choosing' seems to have an impact on the likelihood of the choices... It's all very complicated!

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Jadzia
Posts: 1878
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:04 pm

Re: Ready!

Postby Jadzia » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:03 pm

It is not complicated, it is very simple once one stops relying on intellectual thinking. We all learned it and are proud of the ability of reasoning and deduction, overlooking a topic and coming to sensible solutions and choices.
Well, I am sorry to say but intellectual thinking is fake, it is a make believe. It can and often does stand in way of really observing something, offering explanations which we think make sense because we learned this lingo and then we fall for them.

We learned what is working automatically: breathing, heartbeat, other things we decide: what film to watch, what we eat and so on.
The question is again - what is there doing the controling, the choosing, the deciding?

What is organism? Is organism the controler?

Watch like a hawk, observe - do you find a deciding or choosing entity or whatever in choosing and deciding?
Over the day, each time a decision or choice is seemingly made look carefully when are the explanations rolling in before or after the decision/choice?
If there are evaluating thought content before the decision: is the decision really based on this?

Challenge each thought. This is not about 'thinking about' something but about keen observation and discrimination.

Share what you find.

Love,
Jadzia


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