And...

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NCC
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And...

Postby NCC » Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:00 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I have a desire to see there is no real, inherent 'self.' Although I may be able to say it, to experience is something that I have not fully grasped but may have had glimpses of. In my experience, I live in my story and definitions and that creates pain and stress. I wish to live otherwise.

I would like to work with anastacia42.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for a place and community to explore self as not real so that I may transform the way I am currently experiencing life. It would be nice to be guided or supported through this process of exploration and learning. Also, it would be nice to go through this process alongside people of like mind that are wanting similar experiences and ways of being.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect good listening, open support without judgement, understanding, maybe shared experiences, and positive feedback from a guided conversation. I believe the conversation is via email so my hope is that the conversation is easily interpreted by both parties.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I meditate and practice various spiritual practices. I reflect and explore my own experiences and seem to be forever curious about how life/things exist.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Anastacia42
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Re: And...

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:14 pm

Good morning!

What would you like for me to call you? Oddly, I've given my name to 2 people who were interested in this forum. :)

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please, so I don't keep checking. I like to keep up to help keep the momentum going.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on Actual (or Direct) Experience (AE/DE) -

Actual (or Direct) Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (body sensation, not emotion - emotion labels are made up)
Tasting
Smelling
Thought Arising (but not content of thought - that is made up)


Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text.
Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Watch the video at the top of The Gate forum for instructions.
Let's begin!

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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NCC
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Re: And...

Postby NCC » Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:33 pm

How will life change?
I don’t think life will change, but how I experience life will change.
How will you change?
I will have less thoughts and less living in my story, more “space” or nothingness.
What will be different?
My perception of the world and of happenings will be different.
What is missing?
Nothing is missing.

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Anastacia42
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Re: And...

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:47 pm

Hi,

Thank you. Good.

What would you like for me to call you?

What comes up when is read there is no self, never has been and never will be? That self is a made up story like Santa Claus?


Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that.

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)


Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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NCC
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Re: And...

Postby NCC » Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:44 pm

You can call me ML.
What comes up when is read there is no self, never has been and never will be? That self is a made up story like Santa Claus?
I can understand that. It's like we have made up everything like Santa Claus or the color black so the self could also be made up and only we have created it and put story to it then live by it - until we don't. Or in this case, until we see differently.

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NCC
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Re: And...

Postby NCC » Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:47 pm

You can call me ML.
What comes up when is read there is no self, never has been and never will be? That self is a made up story like Santa Claus?
I can understand that. It's like we have made up everything like Santa Claus or the color black so the self could also be made up and only we have created it and put story to it then live by it - until we don't. Or in this case, until we see differently.

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Anastacia42
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Re: And...

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:17 am

Thanks, ML

Okay, let's distinguish between Actual (or Direct) Experience and stories.

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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NCC
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Re: And...

Postby NCC » Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:43 am

See a bird - see
Hear a bird - hear
Think about future - thought
See lake - see
Hear a fish jump - hear
Hear my feet hit the pavement - hear
Feel the cold on my skin - feel
Taste hot tea - taste
Taste cold guacamole - taste
See the tortilla chip - see
Hear the crunch of eating it - hear
Taste the salt - taste
Think how many times i’m chewing - thought

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Anastacia42
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Re: And...

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:43 pm

Good morning.

Yes. Pretty basic.

Here's another that shows how our languaging affects us.

Mind labeling experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Post this list.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

Post this list, too.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body? Describe this.


Relax, have fun. Looking forward to your replies.

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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NCC
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Re: And...

Postby NCC » Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:47 pm

I am walking.
I am thinking.
I am hearing words.
I am feeling frustrated.
I am talking.
I am looking at my computer screen.
I am writing.
I am laying down.

Walking
Thinking
Hearing words
Feeling frustrated
Talking
Looking
Writing
Laying down

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
I feel like the second one is truer than the first. Without “I” it just is, which feels more right or better to me.
2. What is here without labels?
nothing
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
Describe it.
4. Did you notice any differences in the body? Describe this.
I notice a relaxed feeling, a letting go, an emptiness, a peacefulness without the “I.”

I’ve been practicing/doing this for a few days throughout the day and noticing my decrease in stress, anxiety, and overall thought. I’m loving this.

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Anastacia42
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Re: And...

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:46 am

Good evening!

Glad you're enjoying this.
I’ve been practicing/doing this for a few days throughout the day and noticing my decrease in stress, anxiety, and overall thought. I’m loving this.
Good!

Now let's do an exercise to help distinguish between what I call "story" or "content if thought" and the simple fact of Direct or Actual Experience (DE or AE).

Actual or Direct Experience is color, sound, sensation, smell, taste and the fact of thought arising (but not the content of that thought or the story that thought tells.)

If you have a "real" apple then you can use that for this exercise. (recommended) The apple picture that was here seems to be missing. Just Google any picture of an apple or use one you have, please.

http://www.maryshomestead.com/sitebuild ... /fruit.gif

Have a look at an apple.

When "looking at an apple," there's color; a thought saying "apple;" and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, the story, what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something - because that is only more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of a thought arising.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT "apple?"

Can "apple" be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in Actual Experience (AE.)

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled "apple" is known.
Color labeled "apple" is known.
Sensation labeled "apple" is known (when apple is touched).
Smell labelled "apple’ is known.
Thought about/of an "apple" is known.

However, is an apple actually known?

Let me know what you find.


Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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NCC
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:55 pm

Re: And...

Postby NCC » Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:43 pm

Thank you. I am camping the next few days but will work on this and reply the middle of next week.

Warmly,
ML

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Anastacia42
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Re: And...

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:59 pm

Thanks for letting me know. Have fun!
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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NCC
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:55 pm

Re: And...

Postby NCC » Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:55 pm

I've been doing a lot of various practice with this and noticing that I am in thought a lot; however, this exercise helps me come back and realize/name "thought" and "thought rising." In regards to the question, Is an apple actually known? I don't believe so. I think that an apple is what we have labeled it to be. It is a combination of sight, smell, taste but nothing more than that.

I can identify with this exercise and practice/see it with objects; however, when it comes to people it is more difficult.

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Anastacia42
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Re: And...

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:23 pm

Good morning,

Yes. It's great to notice all the thinking. Seems nearly constant, doesn't it?
I think that an apple is what we have labeled it to be. It is a combination of sight, smell, taste but nothing more than that.
Try to stop or ignore thinking & only LOOK. Your answer is exactly correct. i hope you found it through LOOKING.
when it comes to people it is more difficult.
This leads right into another exercise. The 1st part is not about people, but the 2nd part will be


Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.


Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris


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