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Hasdiel23
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Re: Ready

Postby Hasdiel23 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:56 am

Hi Jon,

Nice to meet you, yes please I'd like that.

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JonathanR
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Re: Ready

Postby JonathanR » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:51 pm

Hi Mike

Great!

I have read through your conversation so far and have the following exercise for you. Give it a try and let me know what the experience is like? :

Fetch a cup. Notice its colour ( For convenience I will speak of a 'red' cup) .

Place the cup somewhere and sit down and just notice its colour.

Conventionally it is often said that 'I see the redness' and it is assumed that there is a 'seer' 'seeing' what's 'seen', as if there are separate bits.

Now look at the colour. There is the experience of redness. There is awareness of this, noticing this.

But is there anything 'separate' about the experience 'redness'?

Is redness separate from the seeing of it?

:-)

Jon

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Hasdiel23
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Re: Ready

Postby Hasdiel23 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:43 am

But is there anything 'separate' about the experience 'redness'?

Is redness separate from the seeing of it?
No, the redness is entirely dependant on the seeing of it, and the seeing of it is dependant on awareness.

What is snagging me over and over in these types of observations is the sense of distance from "me". I can't seem to move past the sense of distance which naturally infers a "me" location. If i really look I can see that we are kind of seeing a 2D image at any given moment and conceptualising distance based on the arrangement of colours/shades. And with heating and we conceptualise distance based on volume. Then theres bodily sensations which can be felt as much "closer" than apparent objects "out there". It's almost as if the sense of location is an intuition, which is obviously incredibly subtle and hard to dissolve like the other sensations.

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Hasdiel23
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Re: Ready

Postby Hasdiel23 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:52 am

In addition to distance there is also an intuitive sense of direction of sensation from a centre point.

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JonathanR
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Re: Ready

Postby JonathanR » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:15 am

Hi Mike
. No, the redness is entirely dependant on the seeing of it, and the seeing of it is dependant on awareness.
No. What we are labelling 'redness' is directly experienced.

Look again please

In this immediate experience of colour where is it possible to find this causal relationship you're talking about ?

We can rationalise, yes. But does thinking ABOUT 'redness' have anything to do with the raw, experience we could term 'seeing redness'?

Please try to investigate by examining experience directly. Are you willing to do this?

. Notify me when a reply is posted
EXPAND VIEWTOPIC REVIEW: READY
Re: Ready
Post by Hasdiel23 » July 31st, 2020, 12:52 am

In addition to distance there is also an intuitive sense of direction of sensation from a centre point.
Re: Ready
Post by Hasdiel23 » July 31st, 2020, 12:43 am

But is there anything 'separate' about the experience 'redness'?

Is redness separate from the seeing of it?
No, the redness is entirely dependant on the seeing of it, and the seeing of it is dependant on awareness.

What is snagging me over and over in these types of observations is the sense of distance from "me". I can't seem to move past the sense of distance which naturally infers a "me" location. If i really look I can see that we are kind of seeing a 2D image at any given moment and conceptualising distance based on the arrangement of colours/shades. And with heating and we conceptualise distance based on volume. Then theres bodily sensations which can be felt as much "closer" than apparent objects "out there". It's almost as if the sense of location is an intuition, which is obviously incredibly subtle and hard to dissolve like the other sensations.
How can I put it so that what I say will be of real use to you? The ideas expressed above complicate everything for you by the initial assumption of the existence of a self and then the embroidery of all those ideas. This is the one thing you need to look for. Look for this self. It only takes one clear glance.

:-)

Jon

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Hasdiel23
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Re: Ready

Postby Hasdiel23 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:07 am

In this immediate experience of colour where is it possible to find this causal relationship you're talking about ?

We can rationalise, yes. But does thinking ABOUT 'redness' have anything to do with the raw, experience we could term 'seeing redness'?
Without thinking there is no cup, no cause, just seeing redness.
How can I put it so that what I say will be of real use to you? The ideas expressed above complicate everything for you by the initial assumption of the existence of a self and then the embroidery of all those ideas. This is the one thing you need to look for. Look for this self. It only takes one clear glance.
Oh trust me I'm looking for it relentlessly. Here's what I find..... raw perceptions and sensations instantaneously sensed/assumed to be 'me' through the mechanism of thought. In direct thoughtless experience...no there is no me to be found, but so what? life is not experienced as direct thoughtless experience. Then if those are dismissed the next layer is a sense of lack. Beneath that is nothing. This is seen, but once again this seeing carries no practical weight. So I can only assume that it isn't seen clearly yet because there sure isn't an easing of the search.

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JonathanR
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Re: Ready

Postby JonathanR » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:54 am

Helli Mike
. Here's what I find..... raw perceptions and sensations instantaneously sensed/assumed to be 'me' through the mechanism of thought. In direct thoughtless experience...no there is no me to be found, but so what? life is not experienced as direct thoughtless experience
Quite so. It isn't. We agree on that. Thoughts do appear including the thought 'I'. That's the illusion of 'self'.

What needs to be seen is the impossibility of the separate self as some kind of entity. Not just that one cannot be found whilst occasionally examining sensations but that one could never have existed in its own right, nor will ever exist.

It can be an obstructive expectation to hold on to an idea that seeing no self must equate to no more thoughts.
I can only assume that it isn't seen clearly yet because there sure isn't an easing of the search.
Right. Well, it can take time. But what brings the end of the search is looking and noticing that 'I' is an illusion and not a thing

Also look at conventions of language. Are we not surrounded by reminders of what we supposed to 'be', from cradle onwards?

:-)

Jon

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Hasdiel23
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Re: Ready

Postby Hasdiel23 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:27 am

What needs to be seen is the impossibility of the separate self as some kind of entity. Not just that one cannot be found whilst occasionally examining sensations but that one could never have existed in its own right, nor will ever exist.
Yes exactly, that's what I'd like to see...

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JonathanR
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Re: Ready

Postby JonathanR » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:10 am

. Yes exactly, that's what I'd like to see...
Do you think that it'll be you that sees it?

If so, how will that work?



:-)

Jon

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Hasdiel23
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Re: Ready

Postby Hasdiel23 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:38 am

Do you think that it'll be you that sees it?

If so, how will that work?
It won't. It can "I" see something that isn't there.

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JonathanR
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Re: Ready

Postby JonathanR » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:21 pm

Hi Mike
. Do you think that it'll be you that sees it?

If so, how will that work?
It won't. It can "I" see something that isn't there.
OK. Yes. So what do you think about speaking in terms of 'I'd like to see'? Is there a contradiction in the way of speaking?... Implying that someone will get to see that there never was a self?

How can there be both no self and a self that gets to see that?

:-)

Jon

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Hasdiel23
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Re: Ready

Postby Hasdiel23 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:49 pm

OK. Yes. So what do you think about speaking in terms of 'I'd like to see'? Is there a contradiction in the way of speaking?... Implying that someone will get to see that there never was a self?
Yes it's a contradiction, though I seem to now be pointing to awareness when I use the word "I"...perhaps I'm making an entity out of awareness?
How can there be both no self and a self that gets to see that?
seeing is a function independant of a self? As in it's just a happening in and of itself? I'm a bit stumped on this one...

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JonathanR
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Re: Ready

Postby JonathanR » Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:52 am

Hi
. Yes it's a contradiction, though I seem to now be pointing to awareness when I use the word "I"...perhaps I'm making an entity out of awareness?
That can certainly happen. Are you awareness? Is that how it looks to you?
. What needs to be seen is the impossibility of the separate self as some kind of entity. Not just that one cannot be found whilst occasionally examining sensations but that one could never have existed in its own right, nor will ever exist.
You said that this is what you'd like to see.

In reading what I wrote here, could you let me know in your own words what you feel it would be like to see this?

What would it mean?

How would it be experienced?

Thank you

:-)

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Hasdiel23
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Re: Ready

Postby Hasdiel23 » Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:08 pm

That can certainly happen. Are you awareness? Is that how it looks to you?
I seem to be awareness originating from a point inside the head
What needs to be seen is the impossibility of the separate self as some kind of entity. Not just that one cannot be found whilst occasionally examining sensations but that one could never have existed in its own right, nor will ever exist.
You said that this is what you'd like to see.

In reading what I wrote here, could you let me know in your own words what you feel it would be like to see this?

What would it mean?

How would it be experienced?
haha good one... I have no idea what it would feel like or mean or be experienced.

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JonathanR
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Re: Ready

Postby JonathanR » Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:02 pm

Hi Mike
. I seem to be awareness originating from a point inside the head
OK. Could you tell me a couple of things about it?

Where does this awareness end, exactly?

Is everything contained in awareness?

Is 'the body' contained in awareness?

Thank you

Jon


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