Where am I?

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Vivien
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Re: Where am I?

Postby Vivien » Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:26 am

Hi Claudio,
Well, I don’t know, but until now there were some glimpses. Now it’s a more stable knowing, and it’s an experiential knowing. Everything is infused in this clarity now and the usual ‘internal struggle’ is fading away.
So how should we proceed? You are not saying with certainty that there has been a shift form an intellectual understanding to an experiential recognition, but at the same time there is no more thinking.
I have some questions, but they are more intellectual. :)
What if you ask these questions, they might reveal some points that are not completely clear.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Unknown987
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Re: Where am I?

Postby Unknown987 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:22 am

Hi Vivien,
Yes, I’m not talking about the experiential shift because I’m afraid of being wrong, but at the same time I’m sure the experiential recognition happened. And I understand why they call it ‘the Gateless Gate’. :)
Ok, here is my question. We have a problem here: we crossed the gate and we saw that the self does not exist. But the 90% of this strange society where we live believe in Self, is based on self development, on career, oh paths, on identity etc etc. We know it’s an illusion, so what now? I ignore thoughts about self, about Claudio, but still I have one hundred people around, talking about self improvement and living that illusion. It’s like living in a world where a few billion people strongly believe in Santa. It’s strange and scary.

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Vivien
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Re: Where am I?

Postby Vivien » Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:54 am

Hi Claudio,
Yes, I’m not talking about the experiential shift because I’m afraid of being wrong, but at the same time I’m sure the experiential recognition happened.
Either you 100% sure of the deep experiential recognition of the fact of there being no separate self in reality, or you have doubts. There cannot be both at the same time.

So please look more. Even if it’s clearly seen, looking doesn’t stop here. If you want this to become your everyday lived experience, then looking must go on.
Ok, here is my question. We have a problem here: we crossed the gate and we saw that the self does not exist.
Let’s stop here, right at the beginning.

Do you see what happens here? It’s been seen that there is no separate self, but this seeing is being high jacked by the self. This seeing is being interpreted through the lenses of the self, and now the self claims it to be its own discovery. Something the self did.

“I saw that the self doesn’t exists.” But it’s like saying that Batman saw that he doesn’t exists. It’s not possible. Can you see this?

It’s never Batman / Claudio who wakes up from the dream of separation. Can you see this?
Batman / Claudio can never ever realize this. Or can he?

Can you see when these thoughts appear, in that very moment the self is believed to be real, and is proudly masquerading as the one who discovered the truth?


And this immediately creates a division between I/we who saw it, and THEM who cannot see it.
So separation is full on.
We know it’s an illusion, so what now?
But who is this we?
Who knows that the self is an illusion?


Please be very careful not to just quickly jump to saying that of course there is no we. It’s clear that you believe that there is a we if you have these ‘concerns’. Please be very honest with yourself.

There have been some serious glimpses, probably more than just glimpses, but the remnants of self are still active with full force. And now it’s claiming victory over this discovery. Can you see this?

And creating divisions between we, and them, consciously or unconsciously, thinks that we are somehow better, we can see this, we are above them, since we can see something that they can’t.
The self is always about dichotomies… especially about superiority-inferiority (even if it’s subtle). Either I’m superior or I am inferior. If I’m neither of them, then there is nothing to hold onto, and verify the reality of the self.

The self cannot exist judgements. If there is any judgement, then it’s a sure sign that in that moment the self is believed to be true. Ponder on this. Let this think in deeply.
It’s like living in a world where a few billion people strongly believe in Santa. It’s strange and scary.
Scary for who?

Please look with deep honesty.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Unknown987
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Re: Where am I?

Postby Unknown987 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:35 am

Hi Vivien,
I saw that the self doesn’t exists.” But it’s like saying that Batman saw that he doesn’t exists. It’s not possible. Can you see this?
Yes, we investigated this issue few weeks ago, and even if I used the "we" in a conventional way I can see the point.
It’s never Batman / Claudio who wakes up from the dream of separation. Can you see this?
Batman / Claudio can never ever realize this. Or can he?
Yes, right. There is no Claudio who can wake up from something. I intended to say something else with my question: there is a looking, looking brings truth, clarity, knowing. Nothing new, truth is always there, covered by the illusion of thoughts, the only difference is that now is recognized. "My" concern was about that: everything conceived by thoughts is an illusion and this is a thinking society based on self. It's weird.
Can you see when these thoughts appear, in that very moment the self is believed to be real, and is proudly masquerading as the one who discovered the truth?

Yes, this is actually an endless re-popping mechanism. But unlike a few weeks ago now the trick is seen more easily.
But who is this we?
Who knows that the self is an illusion?
It's a new knowing into the stream of thoughts (and as we saw in the past, knowing is not enough. KEEP LOOKING!)
but the remnants of self are still active with full force. And now it’s claiming victory over this discovery. Can you see this?
Yes, yes, this is also constantly re-popping.
Scary for who?
I got it. This issue usually starts in an innocent way, as a philosophical question, but then the question is: who is worried about this? Who is looking at the society? from where? above?
If there is any judgement, then it’s a sure sign that in that moment the self is believed to be true. Ponder on this.
I am sinking into this. This is an excellent point.

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Vivien
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Re: Where am I?

Postby Vivien » Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:06 am

Hi Claudio,

At this point, I would like to ask you to read through the whole thread from the beginning. But only read my comments and ignore yours. And not just read them, but actually look with every single question I’ve given you so far.

It will take a while. Don’t rush. The purpose is to help deepening what has been seen.

When you’ve finished, please come back and let me know what you’ve found.
You might discover some gems :)

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Unknown987
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Re: Where am I?

Postby Unknown987 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:09 am

Hi Vivien,
This is a gigantic task! :)
I can’t wait to start.

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Vivien
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Re: Where am I?

Postby Vivien » Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:12 am

It is :) but it can be really beneficial if you really look with each pointers
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Unknown987
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Re: Where am I?

Postby Unknown987 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:24 am

Hi Vivien,
should I post everyday as usual during this task or maybe is better to write a detailed post at the end of the investigation?

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Vivien
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Re: Where am I?

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:31 am

No, you don't have to post every day, just at the end when you finished.
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Unknown987
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Re: Where am I?

Postby Unknown987 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:38 pm

Dear Vivien,
I’m at page 6, so the task is almost complete!
You were right, there are gems there. Perhaps tomorrow I will post my report.
A gigantic hug, full of gratitude..

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Unknown987
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Re: Where am I?

Postby Unknown987 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:49 pm

Hi Vivien,
finally the job is done. :)
You were right: doing this investigation again was helpful, even from the beginning. Indeed, from your very first question, the old expectations are dropped away. All of this investigation is focused on looking things as they are, this is it.
Now the difference between speculative conclusion (a belief that comes from thoughts) and the clear realization (from constant looking)is clear: the recognition of reality happens through looking, never through thoughts.
Now there are no expectations on the 'internal commentary', the desire for it to cease. Now the eventual bla-bla of thoughts is taken for what it is: a bunch of thoughts. Reality is what is BEFORE that commentary, what is UNDER those thoughts.
Looking (again) at the 'body', looking at sensations is been (again) the key for the shift.
Would you say that there has been a shift from an intellectual understanding of there being no separate self, to an experiential recognition?
Yes.
Is there any doubt?
No.

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Vivien
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Re: Where am I?

Postby Vivien » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:13 am

Hi Claudio,

I’m glad that rereading the whole thread was helpful :)

Has there been a shift in experiencing life?

What changed since the start of our conversation?

Looking (again) at the 'body', looking at sensations is been (again) the key for the shift
Could you please tell a bit more about this shift?
How does the shift itself felt?

And how does it feel to see now that there is no separate self in reality?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Unknown987
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Re: Where am I?

Postby Unknown987 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:14 pm

Hi Vivien,
I think I will reply tomorrow, today is a busy day and this part of the topic requires some time. :)
Have a nice weekend!

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Where am I?

Postby Vivien » Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:21 am

All right, thank you for letting me know :)
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Unknown987
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed May 27, 2020 1:01 pm

Re: Where am I?

Postby Unknown987 » Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:13 pm

Hi Vivien,
Has there been a shift in experiencing life?
What changed since the start of our conversation?
A lot of things changed. When we started, 3 months ago, there was a huge desire to improve MYSELF. This inquiry with you was considered a path, with results to achieve and huge expectations. At some time there was a Me who believe that the me doesn’t exist. Things changed the moment “I” became more confident with the experience of pure looking. Looking was something very hard in the beginning, due to a certain tendency to think sooooo much. The more this inquiry went on the more the looking was effective and the thinking was less sticky. After that, looking at the simplicity of experiences was easier.
Could you please tell a bit more about this shift?
How does the shift itself felt?
With the word ‘shift’ I am referring to this effectiveness of the ‘looking sessions’. Due to looking the absence of an entity, a self, was seen clearly, and all of the surrounding thoughts were seen for what they are: thoughts, not an actual self.
And how does it feel to see now that there is no separate self in reality?
There are different types of sensations. It seems a period of adjustment, there are some thoughts about the meaning of life, but they are old conditionings, old beliefs cracking. There is no narration about Claudio anymore, no character to protect, no story to write everyday, no inner ego that take offence. During a conversation there is not “my precious opinion on this thing”, there is more listening, less competition. Apart from that, things are always the same, nobody owns them.


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